Myst Online: URU Live Forums

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Simone — Fri May 07, 2010 6:22 am

Author: Simone

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:22 am

It's far from my intention to say that compromise or perspective are not necessary... (wow I've had to clarify my posts at least three times in the last 24 hours, maybe it's time I take a deep breath).

*deep breath*

What I meant is that, if one wants to bring perspective to this, it would be much more useful to say "That was absolutely wrong, but let's calm down, they did not crash the server and actually they prompted a security update", instead of "Oh come on, aren't you happy that you've seen a Bahro?". The intention to try and put things into perspective, combined with sarcasm etc, without being simultaneously very clear about the fact that no one is endorsing or accepting this stuff, can be seriously misuderstood - and it was.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Marten — Fri May 07, 2010 1:33 am

Author: Marten

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 1:33 am

quahog, thank you for catching that line - I had missed it.

I can disapprove, compromise, and retain perspective all at the same time. We should all be able to do that. There is no "either or" mandate here.

Regarding Heaven's concerns, and Pavitra's questions - I would say that feeling deceived is definitely more damaging to one's experience than lag or desktop crashes. After all, most players had an expectation that Bahro would only be Cyan driven characters. We all change our behavior based on our belief of what is true and what is false; it is a sure thing that people would have acted and felt differently if they hadn't thought thought it was a Cyan-driven character. Cyan-driven characters have what Rand termed at Mysterium '09 as "celebrity status" ...

I'll admit that I wasn't as affected by the false Bahro as some others because certain things about it seemed "not quite right", causing me to be exceedingly suspicious that it wasn't a Cyan-driven character. But, I must emphasize, those who don't have the same propensity for nitpicking are certainly not any more foolish than I am. As Dr. Watson put it at the DRC forums, those "costumes" were "very convincing."

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

quahog42 — Fri May 07, 2010 12:25 am

Author: quahog42

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 12:25 am

Simone wrote:

but, in the eyes of many, this is the kind of issue that requires unanimous disapproval, and not compromise or perspective.

I disagree. I learn more when people bring in their perspectives.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

zehl — Thu May 06, 2010 11:11 pm

Author: zehl

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:11 pm

Well i really believe that we should be preprared for this sort of thing happening from time to time.. I mean once fan made updates start flying in to cyan and they start releasing them, they probably will have to make down times for entire days to be able to update everything without jeopardizing their other affairs (namely mqo).. So yes i understand that it may be a big deal to some, it is not for me, but i do understand those to whom it is. But i really think you guys should be prepared for this sort of things to happen some time in the future again..

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Pavitra — Thu May 06, 2010 10:34 pm

Author: Pavitra

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:34 pm

Heaven wrote:

I disagree. I was duped. My Cavern experience has been tainted. I thank Dr. Watson for clearing things up, but still...

Might not be a big deal to you, but it is to me.

I don't want to imply that it isn't, or shouldn't be, a big deal to you, or that that fact shouldn't be treated seriously by the rest of us, or that what the cracker did was okay, but I am curious. Asking carefully, what is it about this situation that tainted your experience more than, say, lag or crashing to desktop? Was it the cracker's intentions? Would you have felt differently if it was an honest bug and the person controlling the Bahro avatar didn't mean to use a nonstandard avatar, or perhaps even realize they were doing so?

I hope that I've expressed myself appropriately. I ask this only because I want to feel out better the nature of your response to the situation.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Heaven — Thu May 06, 2010 10:25 pm

Author: Heaven

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:25 pm

Marten wrote:

the only harm to our experience thus far has been that the server was shut down for a few days

I disagree. I was duped. My Cavern experience has been tainted. I thank Dr. Watson for clearing things up, but still...

Might not be a big deal to you, but it is to me.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

zehl — Thu May 06, 2010 10:11 pm

Author: zehl

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:11 pm

Marten wrote:

I'd say this is a bigger issue than Tahg has made of it, but a smaller issue than zehn has made it out to be. (And I'm selecting those names as a metric for convenience, not to single out two particular people in this discussion).

I started this thread to raise awareness that - hey folks - there are security issues afoot here. That is true, we should be aware of them, and we don't have to be happy about them. If certain persons had waited until the test server was up, we could have avoided the downtime of the MOULagain server. The problem could have been sorted out, fixed, tested, and rolled to the main server with a minimum of fuss. That didn't happen because certain people were careless - they showed an absence of concern for their actions. I agree that certain posts in this thread seem overly defensive of these careless people. Frankly, I think an apologetic tone would be more appropriate.

But I have also said of the situation that the sky is not falling. That is also true; the only harm to our experience thus far has been that the server was shut down for a few days, and if that is causing significant stress for some people, then I envy them because they must have truly blessed lives if there is nothing more important to them right now.

Finally, consider this an opportunity to find constructive, positive ways to encourage the hackers to play nicely, rather than another chance to demonize them. The same people who know the security holes are those most able to help fix them - and sometimes, people exacerbate a problem because they're unhappy that nobody is fixing the problem. Then when you attack them for it... well, that doesn't solve any problems.

Jus to make a minor correction. It's ZehL not zehn. There is nothing zen about me! Ahahaha xD

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Marten — Thu May 06, 2010 10:02 pm

Author: Marten

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:02 pm

I'd say this is a bigger issue than Tahg has made of it, but a smaller issue than zehn has made it out to be. (And I'm selecting those names as a metric for convenience, not to single out two particular people in this discussion).

I started this thread to raise awareness that - hey folks - there are security issues afoot here. That is true, we should be aware of them, and we don't have to be happy about them. If certain persons had waited until the test server was up, we could have avoided the downtime of the MOULagain server. The problem could have been sorted out, fixed, tested, and rolled to the main server with a minimum of fuss. That didn't happen because certain people were careless - they showed an absence of concern for their actions. I agree that certain posts in this thread seem overly defensive of these careless people. Frankly, I think an apologetic tone would be more appropriate.

But I have also said of the situation that the sky is not falling. That is also true; the only harm to our experience thus far has been that the server was shut down for a few days, and if that is causing significant stress for some people, then I envy them because they must have truly blessed lives if there is nothing more important to them right now.

Finally, consider this an opportunity to find constructive, positive ways to encourage the hackers to play nicely, rather than another chance to demonize them. The same people who know the security holes are those most able to help fix them - and sometimes, people exacerbate a problem because they're unhappy that nobody is fixing the problem. Then when you attack them for it... well, that doesn't solve any problems.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Nadnerb — Thu May 06, 2010 9:53 pm

Author: Nadnerb

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:53 pm

Simone wrote:

this is the kind of issue that requires unanimous disapproval, and not compromise or perspective

Well, it's pretty clear from the amount of "tension" going on that unanimity is not happening. Ignoring perspective and refusing to compromise is the best way to alienate the greatest number of people possible, and creates tension, feeds ill will and is generally a Bad Thing™.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Charura — Thu May 06, 2010 9:50 pm

Author: Charura

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:50 pm

Oh my....this is cool...good luck...I choose to wait for the game to be 'free' and everyone can actually enjoy the effort.....And this is under Technical Discussion?...maybe need to change it to 'I Want To Hit You'....

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

zehl — Thu May 06, 2010 9:36 pm

Author: zehl

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:36 pm

Simone wrote:

BAD, I'm sorry if you feel attacked, probably I've been too aggressive myself. The fact is that some posts were extremely poorly worded (at least), and were misunderstood by most. And the general tension does not contribute to understanding what others might mean.

It's clear that you are generously trying to settle the issue... but, in the eyes of many, this is the kind of issue that requires clear disapproval, and not compromise and perspective. These will surely come later.

Simone once again i agree 100% with you. I haven't seen one single post from you that i could say i would disagree.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Simone — Thu May 06, 2010 9:34 pm

Author: Simone

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:34 pm

BAD, I'm sorry if you feel attacked, probably I've been too aggressive myself. The fact is that some posts were extremely poorly worded (at least), and were misunderstood by most. And the general tension does not contribute to understanding what others might mean.

It's clear that you are generously trying to settle the issue... but, in the eyes of many, this is the kind of issue that requires unanimous disapproval, and not compromise or perspective. These will surely come later.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

BAD — Thu May 06, 2010 9:29 pm

Author: BAD

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:29 pm

Ugh....

In the context of the conversation he was trying to put things in perspective. If someone did this in different circumstances, would it be taken so negatively or would people accept others being Bahro? Perhaps he didn't word it well enough, but I still got what he was saying.

When reading posts it's better for your blood pressure to assume that people mean it in the most positive way possible, until proven otherwise. Reading into things that may not be there only causes more arguing.

At this point I've had my say. It's disturbing that I myself am being attacked for trying to help settle this issue. I will not respond further as I would only be repeating myself.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Simone — Thu May 06, 2010 9:22 pm

Author: Simone

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:22 pm

I'd still call it a rhetorical question...

BAD wrote:

What you are doing is assuming malevolence.

Most of us did not assume that the hacker (or however you want to call it) wanted intentionally to harm the Vault. We have talked about carelessness, yes, and said that it's hard to believe that the Bahro performance was made for the common good.

The point is: there is a lot of tension in the community. If you condemn the Bahro travesty, just state it clearly, and only afterwards it's reasonable to try and put things in perspective.

Re: Your alternate characters are not secret

Pavitra — Thu May 06, 2010 9:21 pm

Author: Pavitra

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:21 pm

BAD wrote:

Simone wrote:
BAD wrote:
PS: I'm telling you, you are grossly misinterpreting their words.

Then I must take some other years of English classes because Paradox's "Is it such a terrible thing?" sound a lot like a rhetorical question to me.

Is it such a terrible thing, compared to someone putting a virus on the server?

It's called trying to put things in perspective.

But that's not what Paradox said.

Paradox wrote:

Is it such a terrible thing if people are trying to generate more interest and keep the storyline going? I thought that was the whole point of Uru...

The second sentence is clearly saying "that seems like a good thing", not "that seems like not such a bad thing, all things considered."