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Re: Placement of Pods

LazarusRising — Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:16 pm

Author: LazarusRising

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:16 pm

LuigiHann wrote:

LazarusRising wrote:
I still like my original "drop them from orbit with a Writer inside" theory. It's just ridiculous enough to be totally awesome.

How would that even work? To drop something from orbit, you'd need to first be in orbit, so how did they get up there, and how did they build the pods in the sky?

I dunno, I'm mostly just being silly. I just like imagining some poor Writer stuck in a pod on it's way down thinking "I'm doing this for a zoo?"

Edit: For a plausible, technical explanation, consider that the descriptive book for the planet may have been specially written so as to purposefully establish the initial link to some point in orbit. If Todelmer is any indication, the D'ni were already aware of the way planets orbit each other and other aspects of astrophysics. It's not inconceivable that instead of describing a particular place on the planet's surface in the descriptive book that they instead describe a particular point in orbit and go on from there. Writing the descriptive book that way would give ample opportunity to describe the various specific biomes they wanted to observe on the planet without making it necessary to detail every feature of them. Then, once the book is Written, have people use Maintainer suits to import/build the orbital structures required.

Yeah, it's a stretch, and likely wrong, but it's still fun to think about.

Re: Placement of Pods

LuigiHann — Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:09 pm

Author: LuigiHann

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:09 pm

LazarusRising wrote:

I still like my original "drop them from orbit with a Writer inside" theory. It's just ridiculous enough to be totally awesome.

How would that even work? To drop something from orbit, you'd need to first be in orbit, so how did they get up there, and how did they build the pods in the sky?

Re: Placement of Pods

LazarusRising — Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:07 am

Author: LazarusRising

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:07 am

I still like my original "drop them from orbit with a Writer inside" theory. It's just ridiculous enough to be totally awesome.

Re: Placement of Pods

Frisky Badger — Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:26 pm

Author: Frisky Badger

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:26 pm

Calmiche wrote:

Of course, lack of evidence does not indicate proof. Without a definitive statement, we're left to ourselves to form opinions about the D'ni culture. Until I find a logical argument against, I'll maintain my opinion while respecting yours.

I can live with that.

I agree that 10,000 years is a long time and I doubt that every single person that left with Ri'neref would have been completely happy with their decision. I could see people siding with Ri'neref initially and then once they get to D'ni they realized how much of the comfort in their lives was dependent on slavery. Maybe that's why they maintained a link with Tehrahnee, in case people changed their minds.

Re: Placement of Pods

Calmiche — Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:48 pm

Author: Calmiche

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:48 pm

You may very well be correct Frisky Badger. I can certainly see where you're coming from. There doesn't seem to be concrete evidence one way or another.

However 10,000 years is a long time. I'm of the opinion that at some point in that timespan, the D'ni probably avowed slavery openly and used slaves to construct edifices in different ages.

And again, we're making assumptions. Sharper might well have thought that the slave trade was secret. That's the impression his journal gives, even if it's not stated directly. However, that journal entry was from very early in his exploration of Teledahn. He might even be correct in his opinion. Then again, this is the opinion of a man trying to reconstruct information 3rd or even 4th hand after several thousand years.

Slavery doesn't always take the form of chains and beating. Anyone forced to work for others or risk starvation is still a slave. Call it what you will; serf, indentured servant, peon, thrall or wage-slave, it's fairly clear that the lowest class D'ni were slaves in all but name.

Of course, lack of evidence does not indicate proof. Without a definitive statement, we're left to ourselves to form opinions about the D'ni culture. Until I find a logical argument against, I'll maintain my opinion while respecting yours.

Re: Placement of Pods

Frisky Badger — Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:48 pm

Author: Frisky Badger

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:48 pm

Calmiche wrote:

Wow.. Declaring that the D'ni didn't use slaves is... weird.

Good thing I didn't say that. I said that some individuals or small groups may have used slaves, in secret. The slave trade mentioned by Sharper was, IIRC, secret and hidden from the Guild of Maintainers. Why would they do that if slavery was acceptable? It may be that all of D'ni used slaves unknowingly and that it was a secret known only to a very small group, but that would be a huge deceit and I have seen no conclusive evidence to support that.

It may be that all of D'ni used slaves; as Zander hinted at, we hardly know everything about D'ni. All I'm saying is that to this point, I haven't seen anything that would override the evidence that we have been presented that they did not condone slavery.

To me, assuming that the D'ni did use slaves based on what Esher said, when he was deliberately trying to deceive the stranger into giving him the tablet (all of that is subject also given that, even IC, Myst V is a game based on real events) and what Yeesha says (she may be telling us that the D'ni used slaves but it's hard to tell when she constantly talks in riddles ) is weird.

Re: Placement of Pods

Ian Atrus — Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:30 pm

Author: Ian Atrus

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:30 pm

Zander_the_Heretic wrote:

*"Well, erm, over millions of years colonies of microscopic creatures evolved which deposited metal molecules in a spherical shell which grew over time into this remarkably regular shape, and then some of them mutated to make glass instead of metal, and there was air inside despite it being underwater because, erm, well, Great Maker, is that the time?"

I am more of the idea of "and suddenly all the molecules in the area inexplicably turned into wood". Ridiculously improbable, yes, but to me the Art is basically manipulating probabilities rather than literal creation.

Re: Placement of Pods

Zander_the_Heretic — Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:24 am

Author: Zander_the_Heretic

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:24 am

jadawin12, that's certainly ingenious, even if it does make the Magic Tablet of Pholderol even more like the One Ring. "No, no, I must free you...but somehow I can't seem to do it...but I must...but I can't...oh, I'll probably do it tomorrow...in the meantime, bring me another mint julep and do my toenails for me, slave." (Sorry.)

My theory is less complicated; not all of what we hear from Yeesha is true.

I need to go through the notebooks in the city again and see how many of them mention slaves or slavery. (And of course if none of them do, then that proves it. ) I'm prepared to believe that it happened, but not necessarily to the bahro, who strike me on the face of it as being good slave material the way I think supermodels would be good sumo wrestlers. And the idea that the slavery of the bahro (i.e. the possession of the aforesaid magical McGuffin) could be essential to the Writing of Ages is just...well. No.

Getting back to the restriction on Writing man-made objects...if there was such a restriction (assuming the DRC aren't simply working from the Stoneship journal) it would, of course, be quite understandable, because the acknowledged fact that you can Write man-made objects into an Age at all, no matter how unsuccessfully or unpredictably, blows the link-only hypothesis right out of the water in a very visible manner*. So the Guilds in D'ni would have to be united in saying "no you can't," in order to prop up the shaky edifice of belief. And as with every rule human beings have ever created, there would be ways round and special authorisations and people who just didn't care, and most non-Writing D'ni would simply assume that the pods were built and placed the hard way, just as we used to assume our governments were run on principles of probity and decency.

*"Well, erm, over millions of years colonies of microscopic creatures evolved which deposited metal molecules in a spherical shell which grew over time into this remarkably regular shape, and then some of them mutated to make glass instead of metal, and there was air inside despite it being underwater because, erm, well, Great Maker, is that the time?" You can do it, but it's really cumbersome and happenstancical, and simply assuming that the pods were either conventionally built and shipped in, or created along with the planet, is easier. And I know which I prefer.

Re: Placement of Pods

jadawin12 — Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:19 am

Author: jadawin12

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:19 am

My theory on Ri'neref and the Bahro is that Garternay enslaved the Bahro. Ri'neref was against slavery and decadence so he stole the Tablet and the Bahro, but either couldn't free them, or to some degree was afraid of freeing them because of their awesome power so just sought to keep them 'safe' but still bound. The kings after him were good and very bad. Some of them would have no issue using slaves, others would find it abomitable. The Guild Era D'ni I am fairly positive was against slavery completely. So when we think about slaves and D'ni we have to keep in mind 'when was this?' and 'who was in charge?' just like Human history.I don't know when the Pod Age was made but that may be a key to whether slaves were used or not.

Re: Placement of Pods

Zander_the_Heretic — Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:51 am

Author: Zander_the_Heretic

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:51 am

I wouldn't take any statement of Yeesha's at face value.

Re: Placement of Pods

Calmiche — Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:27 am

Author: Calmiche

Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:27 am

Wow.. Declaring that the D'ni didn't use slaves is... weird. I mean, it's fairly clear that the D'ni felt ashamed about doing so, and that the DRC tried to conceal a lot of the signs, but a close inspection of D'ni history shows that slavery was commonplace. It might not be what you think of with traditional North American slavery to harvest cotton, but a dark-age European serf or an indentures servant was just as much a slave as a D'ni "Least". "Least" being a class below Low and a word that the D'ni used interchangeably with slave.

I'll even go so far as to say that the majority of upper class D'ni probably didn't know about any outright slavery and didn't consider the lower class of D'ni to be slaves. I'm sure the European aristocracy felt the same way. It doesn't make it any less slavery.

There even seems to have been a backlash against slavery with the advent of the religion of Yahvo that may have erased some of the signs in the final 1,000 years or so before the fall of D'ni. However, I'd take Yeesha's statement that the entire D'ni civilization was built on the backs of the Least at face value.

History time:

Yes, Ri'neref brought the D'ni to the cavern. It's assumed that he was kicked out of the guild of writers for refusing to do something that he thought morally reprehensible and again, it's assumed that it was something to do with slavery. However, that is never expressly stated. And even then, it's apparent that very quickly, the D'ni culture divided itself into classes, one of which was the Least. It's never stated that D'ni was founded to be against slavery. In fact, it was a splinter group that wanted to get away from some of the excesses and abuses of the Ronay people. He and his followers wanted to revert to a simpler time with deliberately introduced hardships.

Yeesha stated in EoA that the the Bahro have been enslaved for 10,000 years. That's actually a couple hundred years longer than the cavern has been occupied. She deliberately showed us Teledahn, with it's slave caves containing humanoid bones. (Bahro are insectoids. Their exoskeletons would be very different.) Rebek was an age where high class D'ni hunted slaves for sport.

Both Douglas Sharper and Nick White spoke at various times about the slave trade, which Richard Watson seems to have deliberately concealed.

Who do you think gathered food for tens or even hundreds of thousands of people living in a cave with no way of growing food? How else would have some of the giant structures in various ages have been built? I can't see rich and powerful guild members, or even lower class guild apprentices building structures like that by themselves. It would have had to have been on the backs of serfs or slaves.

I've also deliberately avoided mentioning the slavery found in the Book of D'ni. That happened with a different culture on Terahnee. However, there are interesting parallels, including calling their slaves Bahro. They called the natives of different ages who weren't of Roney descent relyimah or "the unseen". They also used the term "ahrotantee" or Book-worlders. We might say natives.

Just as another point of confusion, the D'ni in the cavern used the word relyimah to refer to a sort of secret police. That is completely unrelated to slavery.

Re: Placement of Pods

Loshem — Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:23 pm

Author: Loshem

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:23 pm

At that point the Tablet was still locked away in the keep

Re: Placement of Pods

dragossh — Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:15 pm

Author: dragossh

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:15 pm

That can have multiple meanings:
1. They used Bahro to make the Pod(s).
2. Dr. Watson used the tablet to go there. Without it, he couldn't -- that would be left only to his dreams.

I took it as the second meaning.

Re: Placement of Pods

Loshem — Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:10 pm

Author: Loshem

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:10 pm

If it is to be taken as canon Esher said in Todelmer, while standing in what is clearly a pod "look around. Without the power of the Tablet this would be left solely to your dreams!"

Re: Placement of Pods

Frisky Badger — Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:17 pm

Author: Frisky Badger

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:17 pm

Calmiche wrote:

2.) The D'ni used a LOT of slaves.

And the basis for that statement is...?

There may have been individuals or small groups that used slaves secretly, but I have seen no evidence that the D'ni, as a society, used slaves, let alone a LOT of slaves. That was the whole reason Ri'neref brought the D'ni to Earth, he was against enslaving the natives of the Ages they wrote.