Myst Online: URU Live Forums

Re: A plea for peace

Karkadann — Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:24 pm

Author: Karkadann

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:24 pm

One thing I have learn threw out my life is "your not gonna like everyone you work with" and thats ok your not expected to like everyone but ya gotta deal with them, and who knows you might like them after all BUT you'll never know if you don't try. Heck I worked for some one four years who belongs to a group who traditionally don't like the people of the religion I was born into and I knew it. but ya know we were both willing to put our differences and believes aside because we had a common goal we both had a job to do. and bottom line we made one H3LL of a team. Now putting aside ones grudges aint always the easiest thing to do, but ya know if your up to a challenge its worth trying.

When all sides of a conflict are willing to put their differences aside, and work on achieving a common goal I wonder about possibilities and their limits, assuming they exist.

Re: A plea for peace

PaladinOfKaos — Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:06 am

Author: PaladinOfKaos

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:06 am

Though the issues I've noticed regarding hacking were the catalyst for this post, the important part is the second half: we all need to be mature about our disagreements. This community is becoming too small to do anything else. Please don't let any controversy regarding hacking cloud your views on the second half of the post.

Some of the people who have posted in this thread are people I think need to work on this. By no means is it all of you (at a quick glance, only two or three). I've probably been less-than-mature about some disagreements at times. But as Cyan moves forward with open-source (and I am quite convinced that they *are* moving forward internally still, though the progress on the outside has been slow), we will, more and more, need to put our past issues behind us and work together. We'll need to forget our grudges. And we'll need to learn to live with each other. No one's leaving anytime soon.

Re: A plea for peace

VoiZod — Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:35 am

Author: VoiZod

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:35 am

adi wrote:

*hands cookies to fellow explorers*

COOKIE!!!

*AAAMMMM'CRUNCH' arrrgg MUNCH!!!mmmmm*

Re: A plea for peace

ghaelen — Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:25 pm

Author: ghaelen

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:25 pm

I would like to add my support to the idea of peace, civility, reason, common sense, cavernsense, or any combination of the above. We live in this little world together and we can tear it and each other apart in ego-driven competition or build it up in collaboration while allowing our strong personalities to flourish. It is always our choice.

I've never thought of the Grey Hats as a monolithic "other" that encompassed and described all members, whatever the actual color of individual hats. There will be individuals who test the boundaries and some will stop once they find out boundaries push back. Some will complain the boundaries should be moved to accommodate their wishes. Another choice.

I also understand that some hats are considered "Black" and that the things some have done cause problems for everyone, especially the Grey Hats.

I've had fun in the Fun House. I plan to spend more time there. After reading this thread I intend to wreak as much harmony and balance there as possible in my own measly way. Heh.

Re: A plea for peace

Main_Avvie — Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:14 pm

Author: Main_Avvie

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:14 pm

even those who have made the greatest human accomplishments have been met with their fair share of critisism. it's natural and to be expected. it is, after all, human nature. checks and ballances. people have their own interests and they will voice them for their own good and for others. name calling, slander, and other such undesirable tactics are counter to the point however. there is little to no excuse when that happens. there's also a difference between critisism and complaint.

critisism done right leads to understanding and improvement.

friendly critisism is a good thing. why? because friendly critisism comes from people who only wish to see things improved. that can be good for anyone. a writers best seller is critisized so the next time he doesn't make the same mistakes in his next book. any action can be met with critisism, even the most world reknowned improvements. it is par for the course.

the best innovators learn to listen, deal with, and answer their critics appropriately in order to improve themselves and their own work.

however, the worst critic is one who complains, acuses, calls names, and slanders. that's no good. a true critic is only interested in helping those he critisizes, which helps to help others.

Re: A plea for peace

crystal — Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:22 am

Author: crystal

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:22 am

Although i haven't been keeping necessarily up to date with the recent happenings in the Cavern, I agree with PaladinOfKaos 100%. I had a whole long post planned out, but then i realized Whilyam's post above me sums my feelings and thoughts perfectly, so there's no much to say other than I support the Grey hats. You guys have renewed my interest in the Cavern a thousandfold. And I thank you for that. Don't be disheartened by a few people's mutterings about your work, they are but a few. Many, many people love what you guys have done, so lets focus on that and move forward. I look forward to seeing you guys in the Cavern.

-Crystal.

Re: A plea for peace

Whilyam — Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:42 pm

Author: Whilyam

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:42 pm

We should not need a summary of a forum post. I think the false equivalency people are making does not help this community. There are black hats and the grey hats have no control over them. Threatening the grey hats will not stop the hacking that's against the rules. Nalates, comparing people who disagree with you to attention-demanding children does not help introduce civility or reason into the situation either.

What I think people miss is the second half of the OP says. Putting aside past grudges and trying to debate with each other.

Re: A plea for peace

Tai'lahr — Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:16 pm

Author: Tai'lahr

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:16 pm

In summary... these things are inevitable; your plea won't do much except produce posts by your supporters (which is still a good thing, nonetheless), so the best thing you can do is change your own perception and reactions. Don't allow yourself to be sidetracked by outside forces from your visions and goals.

Re: A plea for peace

Nalates — Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:48 pm

Author: Nalates

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:48 pm

Peace… an interesting concept, it probably does not apply here. Asking for civility and reason may be more appropriate.

Merraim-Webster defines peace as: a state of tranquility or quiet, freedom from civil disturbance, a state of security or order within a community… not the things one looks for in their gaming environment. Security and order may be, but we’ve discussed the lack of security elsewhere in the forum and a lack of order follows from a lack of security. A plea for peace is asking for things we don’t and cannot have for some time and things we really don’t want. Plus with 5,000+ years of written history one can argue that a state of peace is not our normal state of being.

Reason… that may be a bit much to ask. But the lack of it produces uncivil behavior. Why anyone would ever think any group of humans are of a single purpose or opinion is answered by a simple failure to think as the explanation. If one simply vents or reacts without thought, they likely will not consider the tone of their comments either. Such behavior is primitive and is indicative of a lack of maturity.

The tempest in our small teapot is a minor event. Those of us that play in other virtual worlds already know where this is going. Of all the paths that such things take only a few are well worn and the likely paths our little tempest will take.

Some people will get (and have gotten) upset and threaten to leave the community, predict doom for the game, tell Cyan what they have to do, tell fans what they must do, and some will leave and have left the game.

Hackers will continue to hack. Some will moderate what they do. Some will twist the knife and enjoy the chaos they can create. Some will feel the only sense of power they have ever had in their life. Others will enjoy the learning and strive to improve things. Some will feel hurt, some will feel abused, some won’t care, and others will become abusive or protective.

Fans will react in various ways and support or attack various factions assumed to be involved in the issues the fans imagine are in play. Some will abstain from participating in the controversies. Others will be oblivious to them. Others will participate in the things they enjoy and pay little attention to drama going on around them.

Cyan will avoid doing much of anything much as a parent in large family benignly ignores childish demands for attention. Only when something triggers the parent’s sense of a serious problem will they turn their attention to the fussing child. Depending on their current level of distraction or frustration their attention and actions will satisfy or dismay the child.

Everything will continue on until something drastic or injurious happens and the playing field is changed. We can see this continuum of events playing daily in several online games, posted and documented in forum after forum. The saga is certainly played out in SL where these patterns repeat with 2 or 3 notable crisis per year.

If one wants to see a change, they either try to change humanity, historically shown to be impossible, or they change their self, which historically is shown to be highly successful. The typical reaction to this idea is to try to figure out how to get others to understand this idea and change, which entirely misses the point.

I suppose YOU can see the circle this creates… One is either somewhere on the circle or… they become aware of it and choose a course of action/behavior well reasoned and researched, or at least thought about, that moves them off the circle.

Re: A plea for peace

Main_Avvie — Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:37 pm

Author: Main_Avvie

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:37 pm

Tai'lahr wrote:

As for the "insinuation lately that all Uru hackers are the same," I haven't seen that (unless it was by someone whose posts I've learned to ignore and so should you). Regarding the rogue hacker(s) and the confusion by some that what happened in the public city was done by Grey Hats, I think that was cleared up pretty quickly. I believe the venom being spewed over that is not just because they're jeopardizing Uru, but because your fans realize it's putting the Grey Hats' project and reputations at risk. So, in many ways, they're coming to your defense.

... Try to think of the criticisms as simply an opportunity to educate. Every time you answer a question without becoming defensive, you improve the relationship between the hackers and the rest of the community, and raise the status of the Grey Hats. Keep up the good work.

I agree whole heartidly. In fact, Tai'lahr put it into words that I failed to find. So suffice it to say I needn't say that which Tai'lahr has already said so elloquently.

Re: A plea for peace

adi — Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:54 am

Author: adi

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:54 am

*hands cookies to fellow explorers*

Re: A plea for peace

A'na — Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:37 am

Author: A'na

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:37 am

I am just an ordinary uru player. I am not involved in any of the behind the scenes dramas but I am sad that there appears to be dissent that distresses people. I hope concensus is reached because the Fun House is a wonderful innovation. I have yet to be awake in time to catch the Hood of Illusion.

I'd love to see a notice put on the imager there letting us know approximate times to turn up.

And although ermadog is quite right about the nature of groups' development, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I still find a great community spirit in the cavern. And I often laugh and laugh at the banter and chatter that goes on. Long may it continue.

Re: A plea for peace

Norfren — Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:36 am

Author: Norfren

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:36 am

I agree with these. Fun House is really fun, but IMHO not in this shard. The whole Uru concept, the remnants of the one-time storyline, history, the whole IC concept will lose its seriousness and opens up the way to a sandbox type ground. For experimentations (call it "hacking" or whatever) another shard should be opened. Fun House is interesting, however, only a cheap trick for trying to keep up the interest toward the otherwise dormant Uru.

Re: A plea for peace

ermadog — Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:12 am

Author: ermadog

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:12 am

Hacking is just another name for technological innovation. Without constructive hacking, the computing industry would be stuck in the 1950s. However, once standards begin to be established in new fields, the game begins to change. The standards are a result of the blood sweat and tears of numerous people. That product should not be taken away from them and that's why we have recognized ways of protecting that investment - patents and business contracts, etc.

The further development of any cultural artifact - be it cultural or technological - is also a product of the interaction between the users and the producers. In a general sense, the artifact belongs to the whole of society. But society is not a single, amorphous mass - there are subcultures, and sub-subcultures, and factions, and cliques, and so on all vying for ownership of various aspects of culture.

That is what we see happening in URU right now. The game has been thrown open to the general public. The general public is not your family. You will never be able to recapture the original family feeling that formed in the early days when the community was much smaller. The best you can do is seek out like-minded people and form your own communities. Doesn't mean we can't be civil and friendly toward others, just that we're not family any more.

I've seen this process many times since my hippie days in the 60s. I've been in hippie communes, anarchist collectives, feminist consciousness raising groups, food co-ops, etc. and the process is always the same. People are excited about the cozy feeling when the group is small. But as the group attracts more and more people, it attracts different kinds of people and they begin forming sub groups based on personal affinity that often evolve goals different from the founding goals. I'd almost say it's an iron law of history.

I always encourage creativity. I am quite happy with the Grey Hats as long as they abide by Cyan's guidelines. No matter how open Cyan decides to ultimately make URU, they still have an investment to protect - even if it's just the good name they made for themselves with the Myst series. And in turn, Myst players bring with them certain expectations that have been formed by playing the previous games. These are different from the expectations of people who have played other multiplayer online games. The people who played some games but didn't read the books also have had a different experience. And the people who play MOULa simply because it's free have different expectations. These different types of people don't necessarily share the same goals and expectations and won't form a cohesive community.

The Internet is a big place. A lot of people out there play by big big rules.

The past isn't what it used to be; and it never was.

Re: A plea for peace

Tai'lahr — Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:17 am

Author: Tai'lahr

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:17 am

PaladinOfKaos wrote:

There has been some insinuation lately that all Uru hackers are the same. That's hurtful. It's hurtful to me, it's hurtful to all that I've tried to accomplish in the past couple of months, and it's hurtful to Uru. <snip> it has opened some old wounds, and perhaps encouraged some people to become more venomous.

When I read this, my first thought was that we're not reading the same forum. But, upon further reflection, I realized that, in your position, you're going to read things differently than I am, and take things more to heart. So, let me just tell you what I've read since the Hood of Illusions project began.

Most of what I've read has been by people who've enjoyed their time in the Fun House or Hood of Illusions; they've posted their questions, suggestions and pictures. I've watched that section of the forum grow very quickly because of the positive interest in the project.

I can only think of three posts that were very critical, one claiming the activities caused lag which was not only unproven, but it was noted that the poster had lag issues before the HoI project began. The other two were about the effects lasting after leaving the hood; they didn't know they needed to log out to clear the effects and IMO, this is simply a case of poor communication which is rectifiable. And, it's good that they posted so the Grey Hats can address that issue.

As for the "insinuation lately that all Uru hackers are the same," I haven't seen that (unless it was by someone whose posts I've learned to ignore and so should you). Regarding the rogue hacker(s) and the confusion by some that what happened in the public city was done by Grey Hats, I think that was cleared up pretty quickly. I believe the venom being spewed over that is not just because they're jeopardizing Uru, but because your fans realize it's putting the Grey Hats' project and reputations at risk. So, in many ways, they're coming to your defense.

As for the rest of your post, I appreciate it and support you in it. I think you've handled things very well up to now. Try to think of the criticisms as simply an opportunity to educate. Every time you answer a question without becoming defensive, you improve the relationship between the hackers and the rest of the community, and raise the status of the Grey Hats. Keep up the good work.