The major, huge, nasty problem with this is that it will cause unrest. Say you write an awe-inspiring fanfic and Cyan picks it up and runs. I then write a less than stellar fanfic that I am convinced blows yours out of the water. Cyan ignores it completely. I *KNOW* I wrote a better story than you, you're buddies with someone and that's why they chose yours! This game sucks.

That isn't even an exaggeration; if anything it is an understatement.

Plot writing is best left to the plot committe, it will be a happier game for all concerned. I have been LARPing and running LARPs for 16 years and this is the one big rule that must always be followed. Sorry Kiddo, I know it sucks, but it is for the best, honest.

belford wrote:

Yikes! Bunch of comments already. I will get to this more tomorrow, but one thing now:

I do see a difference between fanfic and what I was describing in my original post. Fanfic is written with the presumption (even the hope) that the canonical authors aren't looking and won't react. There's no urge for consistency for its own sake. (Consistency for artistic effect, sure -- but just as often, fanfic indulges in *in*consistency for artistic effect. Alternate universes, alternate visions.)

I'd like to see community efforts which *are* trying to create a greater whole. Where Cyan *might* be looking; where they can react to what's being written, or not, without introducing a sudden consistency headache.

Clearly this is a challenge; but we have story structures (Ages, instances) where events can occur independently except when we want them to intersect.

(I also don't think it has to be about *whether* Cyan reacts. If your event winds up on the "Events" page, that's great, but it's not the ultimate justification for running it. Right?)

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-Silmefea

The fundamental impediment to fan-generated stories is the fact that Cyan controls Uru's "physical" assets, not us. This means that Cyan essentially controls the "truth," at least for the assets that manifest themselves in some way to all explorers. We players can fill in the gaps, but our story-telling tools are so limited that we end up taking on the roles of mysterious visitors from deep in the caves, etc.

Consider the following as an example of the difficulties this produces:

Kolian wrote:

Few have bothered to give any thought to what the latest Journeys mean; they sit around and try to call Yeesha and wait for her to explain it to them. I choose to assume that they have meaning and it is up to me to locate it. There's an opportunity for roleplaying right there. It requires no Cyan intervention whatsoever and in no way interferes with anything Cyan might be doing, yet it is directly relevant to the storyline.

Actually, it does require Cyan intervention because "meaning" is something that is under Cyan control. Somewhere, someday, Cyan may reveal the "true" meaning of the Journey cloths, perhaps through a speech by Yeesha or a document provided by Dr. Watson. And so you do need their intervention if you are to "locate" that meaning.

Or you could, if you wished, make up your own meaning, and, at least as I understand your view of Uru, your meaning would then be also a "true" meaning. But this leads to the worst of story environments, a post-modern nightmare in which there is no narrative touchstone. Nothing prevents me from declaring your meaning to be incorrect and giving one of my own. I am either telling the truth or lying, but regardless, my reaction is part of the story, and so on, and so on, until the cacophony drives us all from the cavern.

So back to belford's questions:

belford wrote:

What kind of story presentation has these characteristics:

- One person can do it.
- A bunch of people together can do a bigger one.
- If Cyan decides it's cool, and starts weaving it into official content, it gains credibility and visibility.
- If Cyan ignores it, it *doesn't lose* credibility. (I presume that Cyan will ignore most player activity; they only have so much free time.)
- Aside from general community principles (no porn please), Cyan should not have any motivation to police player stuff. That is, they should not feel threatened by inconsistencies or bad quality. (If they do, the whole system will fail, because -- again -- Cyan doesn't have time to play editor for everybody.)

For me, there is but one way to achieve these: Fan-generated content, specifically, Ages. There are countless worlds at the end of a linking book, and there is nothing that requires that they have anything to do with D'ni other than the fact that a D'ni wrote a descriptive book and some linking books. Beyond that, the Age is everything you need for a rich story completely under the control of fans.

Otherwise, for me at least, I favor a main storyline under Cyan control with a steady stream of new Cyan-generated assets, but with lots of dynamic events that influence the course, pace, and so forth of the storyline. I've laid out my thoughts over in the DRC forums, no need to repeat them here.

Zardoz wrote:

Actually, it does require Cyan intervention because "meaning" is something that is under Cyan control.

So we're just going to sit around and hold inane 'summoning' events and wait for Cyan to grow impatient with our incompetence and toss us some Yeesha speeches?

I guess that's one way to do it.

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Kolian wrote:

Zardoz wrote:

Actually, it does require Cyan intervention because "meaning" is something that is under Cyan control.

So we're just going to sit around and hold inane 'summoning' events and wait for Cyan to grow impatient with our incompetence and toss us some Yeesha speeches?

I guess that's one way to do it.

In which particular part of his post does he advocate that ... ?

Might I suggest you follow the link he gave to his excellent post on the drcsite forums if you haven't already ...

silmefea wrote:

I appologize for my assumption. It did seem that way, though. The problem now is that, although you never intended it that way, PCs now see it that way. Hopefully it will not become a big problem with PCs demanding presence.

The frustrating part is that I have seen several games go belly-up because of crap like this, it's called PC entitlement syndrome and it can easily kill a game.

It's okay. I'm not offended or anything, just wanted to set the record straight.




And on the fanfic front: I'm writing fanfic. However, it doesn't attempt to interact with Uru as it is now; it all happens WAY further back in canon (the fall of D'ni specifically) and makes no pretention to being more than just fun. I think that last part is really important.

There are very few fandoms where fans can have as much of an impact on canon as we can here! It's a unique situation to be sure. But in most fandoms, the part about fan stories being fun asides or alternate-universe interpretations or what-ifs is basically required. Here, the lines are not as clearly drawn...

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silmefea wrote:

Plot writing is best left to the plot committe, it will be a happier game for all concerned. I have been LARPing and running LARPs for 16 years and this is the one big rule that must always be followed.

While I do agree that there does need to be over-arching structures, my LARP experiences have shown me that a lot of a LARP comes from the little one-on-one interactions. Little subplots go a long way toward giving individual characters purpose and texture. Many of those, the people running the LARP never see. The best LARPs I've seen and run are those where I am hearing about all the little things that happens for weeks after the session.

I do think that the overall plotlines for the game will have to be driven by Cyan's story line team in one manner or another. However, I think there is a place for smaller story elements that aren't directed by the overall narrative.

Without further functional support from the game environment (more control and interactivity), it really has to be done on the level of player consensus. (Which doesn't bode well, given how little any player base actually can form a consensus *g*.) Right now, players really only have control in the most intangible of interactions - purely the social arena. I think that's why we see a lot of arguing. It's something we can actually do.

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C'ristan wrote:

In which particular part of his post does he advocate that ... ?

Might I suggest you follow the link he gave to his excellent post on the drcsite forums if you haven't already ...

If we are not to reflect on the Journeys without Yeesha's guidance, the popular alternative would seem to be begging her to tell us about them. Of course, it is hyperbole, and was aimed more at the recent community events than it was at the poster.

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KI # 04260171

IMO the things one needs to remember in playing a role/creating a story within Uru are these;

• Do not seek to control Cyan characters - Saying I bumped into a Reseng is fine (if it actually happened), saying Me and yeesha went for smooches behind the D'ni bike shed isn't or "I am from a race that lives on Pento" yeah, not going to expand on that. Cyan has asked to leave their stuff alone.
  
• Keep it believable - "yeah I called him on my cell phone whilst I was in tsogahl/the cavern/relto" ok, I have enough trouble getting reception on my phone in my kitchen, several miles under the surface without phone masts (or on another planet) doesn't make for good story telling, think about what would be actually feasble. Another example would be "I saw the Kadish Gallery explode!" dispite the fact that people can go to the city and see it is not true, the same can be applied to instanced cities, people can still get there and see.
  
• Bugs, trying to IC bugs is often a bad idea, it creates confusion like the Dereno incident. The only bug that I will IC is lag, then I am just saying I am having some issues with my KI.
  
• Reading from scripts - Not wise, we've seen people who have done this and have not deviated from the script when asked questions, this creates a false and rigid experience.
  
• Back story is as important then the story you are telling - Where you came from, why are you are here builds up a sense of character.
  
• Be constent, if you are specifically an IC character stay IC, don't go OOC (say if I am being IC but as Tweek then its not so bad, as I am not playing a character I am being me, if I was playing Scott Scottson D'ni historian then yeah I would stay IC).
  
  anyway just a few ideas.

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Awesome guidelines. It would be nice if everyone stuck to them.

I remember back in January, I think, we had some guy in the cavern preaching and noone could figure out if he was a PC or an NPC. He stirred up a few things, but as far as I can tell he did not breach any of the aforementioned guidelines you set down.

Wonder what happened to him? Maybe we should see if we can find him, maybe he's lost.

Tweek wrote:

IMO the things one needs to remember in playing a role/creating a story within Uru are these;

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-Silmefea

I certainly believe there will (!) be a basis for real fanfic. But... not just yet. We know we have to stay kinda clear from the D'ni storyline. Cyan said as much while dealing with the first batch of user created ages.

D'ni and Myst/UrU are all about the ages. Somewhere in some thread or at some meeting I remember Cyan stating that user created ages will be that: ages created by us explorers. Not old found and restorated ages, because that might sometime colide with Cyans storyline intentions. Once we are able to "write" our own ages we will be able to start real stories about those ages and about how they came to life. What we find in them, how they hold up (stable, unstable), etc. We can make up our own characters in those worlds as long as they don't have any involvement in D'ni. Which makes sense. In the books many ages are mentioned where the inhabitants were not D'ni (Catherine's home age for example).

So that's my take on it. Real user created storylines will come to life once we can create our own ages.

Of course we can als assume/imagine that we can create our own ages and talk about them and discuss them without being able to visit them.... yet

P.s. if any of my assumptions about what we can and can't do in our own stories and ages is wrong, than please let a Cyanist comment on them and set me straight.

silmefea wrote:

I remember back in January, I think, we had some guy in the cavern preaching and noone could figure out if he was a PC or an NPC. He stirred up a few things, but as far as I can tell he did not breach any of the aforementioned guidelines you set down.

So, is what made this character interesting the fact that he or she may have been an NPC?

If it was discovered that they were actually a player (yet adhering to certain rules like what Tweek outlined), does that make the character any less compelling? Any less a part of the background of Uru?

I wonder if what Uru needs is not just Story(tm), but interesting personalities that people can bump into.

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MOULagain KI#27460 - Second Life: Vax Sirnah

I see it as simple as this--

Making up an incident is the same as making up a story in real life. You can do it, but people are going to call you a liar. Saying Yeesha gave me special instructions will have the same results in game as if I said Rand Miller called me up at home in real life and gave me special instructions.

You can, however, make story by your actions in the cavern. Having a dance party, organizing a group to solve a puzzle, holding a vigil in a bevin, running around the library a thousand times, or just chatting with others are all part of the story. Do it and tell about it.

If you want to play a character, you can freely do so, as long as your character doesn't purport to have special knowledge of the DRC, Yeesha, the D'ni and the like (including knowledge of actions that can't be verified). For example, no one would fault you for playing a biologist wanting to study D'ni creatures as long as you didn't start making up facts that couldn't be verified. You could say, for example, "I believe that Urwins reproduce by laying eggs," but once you start claiming to know it for a fact, people are going to get skeptical and demand that you back up what you say.

In other words, don't state something you have made up as fact unless you are willing to be called to the carpet for it. Make up incidents if you want to, but be prepared to be called a liar.

----
Now. let me tell you that I have created IC fiction and have not been called to task for it. How? I have an IC blog that is obviously intended to be humorous. Friends read it for a laugh knowing that I don't really expect them to believe that the incidents I recalled actually happened. Thend's cartoons are very similar. They often involve DRC characters, but, being humor, no one takes him to be saying that the things in his cartoons actually happened.

Or, one can write a non-humorous story and label it as fiction. No one, at least outside of Cyan's legal department, will mind if you do that.

Of course not, I just mentioned that to mark him better. He was, apparentlt, a brilliant orator and I, for one, was fascinated. He was something of an enigma, claiming that he was an explorer like the rest of us, yet obviously so much more.

Perhaps Yeesha has him, perhaps he is lost. He was interesting regardless of origin.

BladeLakem wrote:

silmefea wrote:

I remember back in January, I think, we had some guy in the cavern preaching and noone could figure out if he was a PC or an NPC. He stirred up a few things, but as far as I can tell he did not breach any of the aforementioned guidelines you set down.

So, is what made this character interesting the fact that he or she may have been an NPC?

If it was discovered that they were actually a player (yet adhering to certain rules like what Tweek outlined), does that make the character any less compelling? Any less a part of the background of Uru?

I wonder if what Uru needs is not just Story(tm), but interesting personalities that people can bump into.

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That which doesn't kill me is gonna regret its failure.

-Silmefea

The LARP perspective is interesting. (I have read discussions of LARPs, but I have never been in one.)

From silmefea's comments:

"Players often feel that they are paying to be entertained and should not have to make their own fun unless they want to do so. If a particular puzzle is too difficult the players will become angry and frustrated and blame the writers. If a puzzle is too easy and beaten too quickly, the players will become angry and blame the writers. If a puzzle does not fit the players idea of what the puzzle should be, they will blame the writers."

We've certainly seen all of that played out here.

But, okay, I'm a player and I want to take some responsibility into my own hands. I'm not the only one. You're writing advice for game-masters (and from the game-master's point of view), but I'm looking at this from the players' point of view. What can *we* do?

"The key is NEVER allow the PCs to call the shots."

If Cyan takes this advice, the player-created story I'm talking about will never appear in-game. If they stay on their current course, then *most* player-created story will never appear in-game. (They don't react to most player activity, right?) So I should not let this affect my plans at all! We should go ahead and act (write), knowing that any response from Cyan is pure gravy.

Which was the spirit of the Yeesha gathering, after all.

"The major, huge, nasty problem with this is that it will cause unrest."

Possibly. To be honest, when I said "Cyan weaving this stuff into the game", I was not imagining a wholesale change of the planned story. I was imagining the kind of changes we've seen so far: Brian Fioca's name in Sharper's office, poems in the community room, a stained-glass window. Those have not been disastrous.

"Plot writing is best left to the plot committee, it will be a happier game for all concerned. I have been LARPing and running LARPs for 16 years..."

I'd been looking at (paper-and-pencil) RPGs for twenty years when I stumbled over the Forge community. I thought I knew how RPGs were structured. Turns out I was wrong.

There is an "old-school" model of RPG. But now I'm looking at games where the plot *isn't* just left to the GM, where you are not always limited to "speaking for your character". Where you really can say "I trip the Baron von Wauwau, put my rapier to his throat, and tell him that I'm not going to kill him today because *I'm his long-lost daughter*." (And all the other players *and the GM* will nod appreciatively, because the *rules say* -- by my die roll, or by the points I'm spending, or whatever -- that it's my place to decide that true.)

No, I'm not proposing a die-rolling plot mechanic for Uru. I'm saying that there are many notions of what role-playing is today. Little as I know of LARPs, I know that's true in the LARP arena as well.

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Honestly, you need to look at this from a writer's perspective. What you propose has the potential to unbalance the game.

There is a certain amount of plot you can allow the PCs to generate, but that is always carefully controlled to avoid OOC conflict. It is highly unlikely that entire plotlines will be PC generated due to many issues. There may be opportunity to influence plot, but that should be all.

In the end, the entire discussion is moot in that the plot committee will do what it wants regardless of our words.

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