Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 10:07 pm
but I do know that all the known groups in the cavern have been extended invites to join this interim council-thingy. Other independent people, such as Mike Fitz, Samsbase, Thend and others have also been extended invites, as their respective works are well known in the community.
Thank you Narym for trying to answer some of my questions. I do appreciate the answers being given here on MOUL where most explorers happen by. One of my real concerns is that the discussion was being carried on at a forum where there is no moderation for "decorum." Here I feel I can safely say I what I need to say, and I will. So thank you for acknowledging us "independents" have the right to make up our own proposals and suggest our own suggestions.
There is a definition problem already. What is an independent newscaster, show person, cavern storyteller, etc? I am a member of a very active network and I contribute work and my few cents to that concern in support of Uru and community, but I consider myself an independent producer. I am the editorial producer at Lakewater Distribution. I am its only member too. Lakewater (a wholly separate division of CCN) houses CCN independent producers and often distributes news material including videos and audio. It has no creative purpose (except fun & humor & lots of work), but it does ensure that news gets out. I think that deserves a vote in something -- not the council perhaps--I pretty much figure that the council has chosen their membership and I would not be invited by the "starters" of that group.
I am not hurt, and my no invite is no problem (fine), but I do think there is a real issue about who is in and out. It has been one of the issues I have been dealing with for years in the cavern. How will you all decide? If the creation of the council is any indication of how it will look in the future, I see a very small and intentional council with a limited purpose making policy for all other news types in the cavern. That is a problem I do not feel fine about.
Indeed, I think the intention is, in the future (as you said)to have a person/s who aren't part of an orgainisation or media group (so, essentially, a representative of the beneficiaries of the media output) on the Council at some stage, so as to have some level of oversight, and also to allow even greater ease of communication between the media producers and the media receivers.
The issue is as Ghaelen pointed out much better than I have (other thread) ---any pre-council set up sounds like it is trying to become the official guild. It may hamper perfectly respectable, talented news and storyteller explorer types. They may get the idea their input into a forming guild is already foregone--gone. I would think so myself at this point, but I have been around awhile and see this attempt in a whole other light. It does not impede me from posting my opinions and questions. It forces me to post my questions, even though it is a bit messy to go up against an intrenching grain.
Of course, if you don't go out of your way to enter into the discussion, then how can it be expected for your opinion to be heard? At this stage, obviously, it is the pre-existing groups that have shown the greatest level of interest, and thus are doing a fair amount of the preliminary legwork. Again, however, the general public is free to enter into the discussion at any time.
I am no johnny come lately. I have been watching this thread(s) for the entire time. I wanted to wait until I had something to say before I posted. It is not my purpose to post for post sakes. If you will notice my post count. It is very low. Instead of posting I have been working (when surface time permits) on cavern media projects instead of saying this or that.
In any case, I think the sole purpose of the council at this early stage is to have a formal means by which organisation can be streamlined. This is likely not going to be the final shape of the council, which is completely open to tweaking, or wholesale change, whichever the majority deems appropriate. If individuals or groups decide that they would actually like to actively participate in the this council formation, then they, of course, would be able to have a voice in its construction.
This is the section that makes me most nervous. Streamlined is an excellent choice of words. At this time I don't think the council or the guild membership should be streamlined at all. The unofficial GOM should be looking for members --- lots of members with all kinds of notions about what a GOM looks like. The unofficial GOM should be talking about what it means to be a cavern messenger, what tools you have to use, how to use those tools, and what kinds of talents might most benefit from and with membership. Streamline what? and final shape of what? Some of the council members are saying not to worry - this is a pre something that doesn't count in the long run.
Narym, you are saying this is not the shape of what will be. I know its controversial, but I would like to go on the record to say this "streamlined" "self appointed" and "invited to a few only" council is not the shape of a GOM I would like to see. Who decided that these groups and independent producers were the ones to be represented, while other explorers were deemed parts of other groups and or not important enough at all to matter?
It is the desire of everyone involved (I would assume
) to see the Guild of Messengers become the best it can be, and be truly representative of the community, by having as many people involved as possible, without degenerating into squabbling.
Narym, I am sure you do want to see a GOM become a best GOM. I don't doubt that one minute, and I am four square against squabbling, but sometimes it is necessary to stop and take a look at what came swishing by so fast that someone forgot to say ---"hey, wait a minute. What are you all exactly saying here?"
One of the reasons it is so important that we discuss the unofficial GOM here is that the majority of us at CCN are adverse to squabbling. I don't represent CCN, but I can at least say that without upsetting my fellow producer friends. A couple of us went so far to say that we would like to be part of a GOM discussion for the future, but we won't engage in discussion unless its a "mature discussion" with a slow build that everyone can take time to see and review.
Many of us at CCN work on the surface and it takes time to read the posts, discuss the meaning of what is being said, and decide for ourselves if the suggestion is plausible and works for everyone. I am still not sure why the hurry about all of this? Since I did not take part in the other forum's discussion I have no idea who started this surge for a pre-interim-seasonal council? It really doesn't matter I guess, because my argument is not with who started the thing, it is with what got started and how fast it is moving to become "the final shape" to persons still desiring to become a part of the GOM. Thank goodness there will be a Cyan to come in and fix what gets broken along the way, so that everyone can participate in the guild when it is official.
Until then I am stuck making these long question posts. Even though I've been promised nothing stays the same and everything will change, I don't want anyone to be able to say "well you said nothing at the time." This is my saying something at the time
EDIT - OOOPS - one last question Nayrm - (since your answers tell me things, ----If I wear my yellow shirt in cavern and in the pub I see on the new things in URU (if there is one for messengers) will I be considered a fellow member, whose work is determined by the council? Exactly how does that work, if I am only a member and not a contributing voting member? Will there be lots of us ant types?
Edit Edit - For the persons who support the 1 vote mandate. I agree 1 vote X 1 member of the GOM supporters = 1 vote, whereas 1 vote X a group of any number of members of a cavern group = something unknown.
1 independent producer X 1 vote = 1 vote if that producer is a member and wearing a yellow shirt, but 1 vote x 1 group may represent the voices of several members of the group or none of the group, if the members of the group are not yellow shirted supporters.
or how does one producer like me (if I were mistakenly invited to join ) X 1 vote = the same as 1 Relayers vote X all those yellow shirted relayers?
I need a little math help here. I think its all those yellow shirts we don't even know about it. Any pre-pre-pre council oughta consider, or why in the world did the shirts come about in the first place? If I were playing a game with clues from the game creator, I would think about what those clues might mean.
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Last edited by Ahvree on Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.