I thought of a lovely third possibility. NONE of the existing groups becomes part of the GoMe (or other guilds). Their members can, but the organizations either continue their podcasts/etc. or they collapse.

At this point, I think these pre-guild/voting council/etc. are a good idea. A core group of the reps from each news group with the purpose of making some core rules for the future guilds. These rules may or may not go into effect (as I've said elsewhere, Cyan will likely crush some rules and many groups forming the guilds and no one can say "these are the rules" until Cyan does. Until then, we should be doing our best to come up with rules to suggest to Cyan). I think of these groups more as like a senate committee (9/11 commission for example). To suggest rules and ideas.

_________________
-Whilyam

That really is a very appealing approach, and is similar to some things that Zardoz mentioned when the ability to support a guild was first announced.

Taking this angle, no groups are singled out, no groups feel like they may be headed for a Guild of Borg, everyone can focus on a single task at hand... what does the community need for a Guild of Messengers.

_________________
Officially bonked R.E.B.E.L.
Falling Man Group Secretary
Storyteller & Creatrix
MOULAgain Houligan KI#00001498

Stevecrox wrote:

So you have no alternate suggestion you just wish to attack this one, very positive of you.

I've said everything I think needs saying, everything I have posted here and on AoG should answer any questions I can think of. If people have any suggestions or idea's please make them

Here is my idea:
Maybe what the GoMes needs is not a fusion of the existing organisations but a brand distribution organisation. What if the new GoMes was the delivering letters GoMes from back then only with better ressources? That is what TCT, Uru Radio, etc want right? Having their news or information spread in the cavern but without putting to much work on their own back because their are so busy already with their own organisation. The large flow of individual explorers would not create the information but just distribute it through several ways. The organisations would just submit things to spread in the cavern and that is what the GoM would do. The organisations would submit to the GoM the material they want. If Uru Radio is doing an interview with Rand, Uru Radio could give the GoMes a small written part of the interview to the GoM and mentionning that the full interview is on their website. Or just ask the GoM to spread the information to go on the Uru Radio website to listen to it. the GoM job could be as simple as to make sure the cavern knows that the new podcast of the TCT is available at some website
OR
The organisations could also want to have the exclusivity of something on their website and then 1 week after it is available entirely to the Guild.

In my mind the GoM would only publish information that have been asked to be spread in the cavern. Nobody would steal stuff from the organisations. The same system would work for the explorers who want to annonce a public party. The GoM would make sure the information reaches the largest number of people possible. However the GoM would have no right to announce a party or a meeting that was not asked to be public.

I really consider the GoMess as a postal service right now. If you want to give us your letter the GoM, it will be in the system. But the GoMess will note force you to give them your letter.

_________________


"When you want your message out in the cavern, use the Guild of Messengers."

Andros KI: #265443 Kalypso Ki: #5962956

Whilyam wrote:

A core group of the reps from each news group with the purpose of making some core rules for the future guilds. These rules may or may not go into effect (as I've said elsewhere, Cyan will likely crush some rules and many groups forming the guilds and no one can say "these are the rules" until Cyan does.

Eleri wrote:

That really is a very appealing approach, and is similar to some things that Zardoz mentioned when the ability to support a guild was first announced.

Did someone mention my name? Actually, this is very much what I would NOT recommend, as the same thing came up with the DRC liaison election rules. Having the people directly affected by the rules of an organization be the ones to write those rules ensures that the rules will favor those people, not produce the best darn Guild possible. What we have is existing communication organizations with vested interests and ongoing conflicts debating organization charts and Grand Poobah Council membership rules, already plotting to exclude the riffraff that might want to join the Guild by ensuring that they control future membership once this House of Lords becomes established.

If I were Unelected Dictator for a Day, I would randomly select 10 explorers and ask them, What do you want from a Guild of Messengers? I would then take their responses to the organizations that are now battling for Grand Poobah status and say, What would a Guild look like that could deliver what these people want? Instead, we have a totally self-serving discussion that has, as far as I can tell, no interest whatsoever in understanding what value a Guild of Messengers can add to the Uru community; instead, the entire discussion has focused on what value a Guild of Messengers can add to the community of Uru messenger organizations.

I'll now return to my state of hibernation. In the future, you might be more careful about invoking my name.

Actually, I was more looking at the appeal of

Quote:

NONE of the existing groups becomes part of the GoMe (or other guilds). Their members can, but the organizations either continue their podcasts/etc. or they collapse.

This is, in a nutshell, the fate of the D'net. Wait and see about the official Guild, and collapsed under the inability to continue the work.

I very much agree with your other points, Zardoz.

The Guild of Messengers is highly unique in that, aside from the Guild of Greeters, it is the only completely service-oriented guild. The other Guilds may provide things for the community (Ages, maps, etc...), but without the community, the recipients of the messages, the GoMe will have no functionality, at all.

I think it's vital that the populaces' wants and needs for a messenger group be discovered first and foremost.

_________________
Officially bonked R.E.B.E.L.
Falling Man Group Secretary
Storyteller & Creatrix
MOULAgain Houligan KI#00001498

Quote:

I thought of a lovely third possibility. NONE of the existing groups becomes part of the GoMe (or other guilds). Their members can, but the organizations either continue their podcasts/etc. or they collapse.

The main problem I have with this is that I don't think anyone really wants to give up their current projects. Many of the groups that produce media content have been doing so for some time now, with these projects developing their own personality, and it wouldn't be right to just shut the down. Besides, these individuals/groups (to the best of my knowledge) have proven that they can produce regular and quality content. The infrastructure's already there, and there's no need to (if I may borrow a phrase ) reinvent the wheel. The only thing, in my opinion, that really needs to be done is facilitate ease of communication between pre-existing productions.

As for doing GoM and individual projects at the same time, these things take a lot of effort, and I think it would be too much like hard work to do both at the same time.

Ruby...

Quote:

one last question Nayrm - (since your answers tell me things, Very Happy ----If I wear my yellow shirt in cavern and in the pub I see on the new things in URU (if there is one for messengers) will I be considered a fellow member, whose work is determined by the council? Exactly how does that work, if I am only a member and not a contributing voting member? Will there be lots of us ant types?

That's a tricky question, and likely one that can't clearly be answered at this early stage. Again, the people that are currently involved in these prelim stages are either people who have actively shown an interest in forming the Guild, or those who's media prescenece is already known in the cavern. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to guage the amount of these so-called 'ant types' in the cavern, unless they make themselves known. I have no real idea how they would be represented on the council.

Of course, I doubt that the council would ever really be a true authoritarian-style body. Certainly at this stage of the Guild, it is just there to formalise and (if I may recycle my good choice of words again ) streamline communication between the guilds; that is, allow everyone's ideas to be heard equally, so that a collective decision can be made.

Again, how this will work for individuals not affiliated with a group, I am not sure, and this will be something that will be ironed out by the preliminary council. It will certainly not be difficult to at least have their opinions heard, and there will likely be some way for non-'official' members ( 'freelancers', perhaps) to have a 'vote', though probably not on a one to one basis (ie freelancers each individually are automatically given a seat on the council equal to other more established members ie CCN, TCT, Relayers, Uru radio, whatever). Maybe somesort of umbrella representation? I don't know

Which leads me onto your CCN problem. I'm not sure whether your hypothetical CMUWS would get a seperate and equal vote to CCN, simply because there is something akin to a conflict of interest present. It could occur (I'm not saying that CCN would do this, or even that it would happen at all, but..) that you would have a clear view on a particular, votable topic. All your colleagues also share this view, who also have their own independent groups, that all come under the same umbrella organisation. If each was given a seperate vote, it could end up effectively giving the umbrella organisation multiple votes, not in the best interests of an egalitarian group

You may or may not know this, but I'm the Editor in Chief of the TCT web mag The Archiver. While TCT helps out with webspace, advertising, and technical support, they have ZERO creative control over the project. With the exceptions of myself and Jeff Wise, all staff are not-TCT members. The guys in charge at TCT (if 'in charge' is the way to put it) give advice, but generally don't interfere with The Archiver at all. It is, to all intents and purposes, an independent publication.

However, I have made no attempts to gain myself a seat on the council. I don't see the need. I am perfectly happy (at this stage at least... ) to allow Steve, Anthony, or whoever ends up being the TCT rep on the prelim council, to also represent The Archiver's interests as well. Why? Because I can at least trust them to present The Archiver's staff's opinion on Guild matters, if not vote for it as well. Surely it is not so much of a stretch for other such umbrella organisations to do the same. I mean, if you can work together...?

Remember, this is the chief aim of this council. Voting rights is not the sole aim, simply because there isn't all that much to vote on yet. As Ireen said, the main idea of any council should be to simply allow ease of communication between the groups/individuals involved, in a transparent, clear and formal setting, rather than voting on arbitrary bureaucratic minutae. And I believe this is what is trying to happen at the moment. The use of the word 'vote' does not inherently signal the coming of the Apocalypse. Certainly, I believe that the voting that is currently in development regarding the preliminary council is merely to ensure everyone is aware of what is going on, rather than having the sort of shady, under-the table dealings everyone seems to want to avoid. Votes, as much as we hate them, are the best way to ensure complete transparency.

At the moment, as far as I can tell (with my limited, non-politically oriented brain :p), the idea is simply to have proper, focused discussions between group/individual reps. While I agree we shouldn't rush, Rome wasn't built in a day. These preliminary discussions about the framework of the proposed Guild are the best, and least hellfire-inducing, ways to get the ball rolling. As Zardoz (please don't smite me!!! ) said, another of the earliest things we should do is work out what unique things we, as a united Guild, can bring to the community, and I think the best way to get that started is to start talking, groups and inidividuals alike, in the aforementioned 'council' setting. No tricks, no locked-in contracts. I think we should all keep in mind that if any elements of the Guild, or council, RALLY don't work in the future, they can be changed. The important thing is to get started.

I hope I haven't confused anyone, and answered at least some questions

[/mylongestpostevah!!!]

_________________
http://www.thecaverntoday.org/Archiver
The views expressed by me are my own, and do not represnt those of The Archiver, or TCT, unless explicitly stated as such.

MOUL KI: 13986530

Zardoz wrote:

I'll now return to my state of hibernation. In the future, you might be more careful about invoking my name.

What he said before this.

TY. You have said in two pargraphs what I have been feeling all along.

_________________
semplers' shards

Sigh why do I keep letting myself being drawn into posting?

Zardoz you mention how if a group of people interested in something will make rules to suit themselves and you’re exactly right. But I'd like to take you down my twisty road of logic as to why this is a good idea.

A Guild of Messengers as Eleri has said is a completely service orientated Guild. By nature it is going to be something which requires people to step up and do something for others. There are several groups which already try to fill this service from TCT to MystObsession. It is a service which takes time and a surprising amount of work. These groups have varying success in what they do. One thing I have noticed is that almost everyone involved in one of these groups doesn't suddenly want to be a part of the Guild of Messengers. The big feeling at TCT is "we are TCT, I'm proud to be a member of TCT, I'm not going to switch and suddenly become a GoMes member." I've noticed this sentiment with other messaging groups, if you look through some of the posts by relayercorps you'll notice this sentiment pop up occasionally.

This presents a problem almost everyone who wants to spread a message in the cavern is involved with a group doing just that and doesn't want to ditch ship for another. Another problem arrases’ which I'll call "official syndrome". If you've recently joined the cavern and decide you want to do some audio news reading who are you going to join? The guild which has support in cavern or The Cavern Today? Eleri was trying to revitalise D'ni net and everyone was only interested in the GoMes. There is a final problem and its a biggie, the more news sources and different groups the better. It provides different outlooks on things as well as different services. People also like to work in different ways keeping the existing groups ensures that, heck in TCT we have three different organisation styles, Archiver likes using a wiki, the podcast uses a storyboard and the Extra simply requests people willing to cover days. Setting up these structures usually requires one person to be relentless and keep pushing for it and working at it.

So we have our problem, how can we move forward in the fairest way possible? Personally I think we should create a GoM that is a useful tool for the messaging groups, make it so there’s a central adverting point for the groups involved and a central contact point for the community at large. That way you harness the talents of the people involved, respect the wishes of the people involved in those groups as they get to maintain their identity and provide a service with the least amount of effort. I'd also think that using it as an opportunity to bridge build between the existing groups.

What’s the best way to advertise? D'ni Net was a great idea, steal it and attach it to an official sounding domain. What’s the problem with this? Legitimacy, several people have stated they think a website should be a decision made by the GoMes.

Second issue, what’s the best way to increase information sharing amongst the messaging groups? Regular meetings with the idea of increasing cooperation between the groups, but in the past when you've tried to organise meetings (just internally) you've found it extremely difficult to get everyone involved to turn up, which stops you making decisions. How can you overcome this? Perhaps asking each group to appoint a representative, which means less people to go to a meeting which makes it easier to organise and if the representatives have been involved in the discussion their more likely to turn up.

Does this solve the first issue? A group or "council" of representatives made up of all the messaging can most probably make decisions and more than likely they will have their own ideas for a GoMes. If voting is included any issues which may result in heated debate can be voted on making sure that whatever actions the group takes happen because the majority of the group think its a good idea. With a council which is open to expanding its membership to include new groups and equal representation your most likely going to cover the opinions of the people who perform messaging functions (the 50 or 60 or so of them.)

What are the problems with this? Firstly it ignores people who aren't affiliated with a group and secondly the group initially created isn't going to support independents.

For the first issue can you see around it? No, unless unpractical and perhaps unfair means are proposed I can't see any. The best option is to encourage them to enter the discussion, if someone does come up with a fair suggestion to overcome this support it.

The second issue could be overcome if the mission statement were to cover promoting individual projects. Perhaps making a proposal and working to supporting independents projects as Guildsman/women, this is something a GoMes council or leader would have to do, so bring it up in the first or second meeting. A good example would be someone like Marten. This would probably merit its own forum to discuss how it could be put in place.

What about people who don't want to contribute technical expertise, time, or something to do with messaging (so people without a project in mind)? Personal experience tells you to ignore them and fight to keep them out as they generally cause the most fuss and don't contribute to the community in any way (Archiver/TCT staff if you are confused PM me and I'll point out about a dozen threads on the TCT board.)

What’s the worst case scenario’s you can see? The first is Cyan pulling to plug on the idea, the second is alienation of the community. For the first the worst case could be the groups involved resurrecting D'ni net and starting to take steps at co-operation, for the second there is a chance of alienating perhaps a dozen people, as long as this is taken slowly I believe the chance of this is minimal.

There is my logic and every question I've asked myself in getting this far. If you can see better answers to any of the questions I've asked myself please do make them none. If all you can do is attack the idea without offering constrictive criticism, advice or an alternative it’s hardly helpful and doesn’t really change anything.

_________________

I appreciate so much that so responses are being offered. I am humbled really, and I am going study them all today (all those so far made).

In the midst I would like to clarify a couple of things:

1. As the only member and representative of my fiction in fiction CMUWS, or as a team collaborator at CCN I have no interest in ever being made an official poobah of any guild. As usual, any acumen for such secretarial work and wrangling is not in my clutch purse. I would like to see who does their best poohbah secretarial work, while still keeping their cool under extreme conditions, before I decide who might be best at that. I am already deciding who might not be best.

I will not be a part of a guild, where I have no vote at all in who is my grand poobah(s) or in the direction of where the guild goes (mission statement, philosophy, scope). That would be like moving from my own "messy politics" country to another where each person is not given an opportunity to vote. I can think of several and it doesn't look good from this side of the ocean. I don't know who thought up this pre-determined council notion, but to me it is truly nonsensical. Who do you think you are? -- to take away rights to be a member and the right to vote on guild formation? Each guild member should have the right to vote.

2. So if each guild member has the right to vote, the issue will become who gets to be a guild member? It would be also be ridiculous for me to wear a yellow shirt and support the GOM, if I never expect to be invited to join the guild. Why then am I being given the opportunity to support by the DRC who left me a tee on the table? Are you (from the council) saying that you are the only show(s) in town, and you have decided how every sub-show is run? I am sorry Narym, but most of us at CCN decided a long time ago, we could not function in that kind of system. It stifled our creativity and ability to enjoy cavern life.

3. I think I agree with the idea lets throw out the bath water, keep only the ideas & education about how the technology works ---how the work gets done, and let everyone and anyone join the guild. Yes, if it means Zardoz, Eleri and Whilyam that we need to come in separately without the baggage (and only the knowledge) of our affiliations and assocations with current newsgroups, so be it. I can certainly tell CMUWS and CCN that my interest and membership in a GOM is entirely my own. I do not come to the guild as a member of any prior or current concern.

4. The reason I would like to advertise an open meeting (not my idea Samsbase) is that I think that is how I personally would like to see the GOM get started. In my humble opine it should be a whole new group with no drag. During my talks with CCN friends we found out we all agreed that our decision to join a guild (any guild) was our own choice. We are not part of a monolith of any kind, nor after all these months of working things out do we ever choose to be.

5. It may surprise you to know I agree with many of you who believe we (any of us) have no "special rights" for joining the GOM. Good leadership, editing, writing, scripting and voice talent will float up where ever it comes from. There is no need to bring one's papers and tarnished *crown into the guild.

*I don't have a crown, more like a black ball cap that is a tad muddy from all the back story. I am holding on to my hat. I worked hard for it, but then I love a good story.

The guild is a brand new part of the cavern story. Why should there be any fear about starting a brand new chapter? If you have what it takes to make news in the cavern, it will come out. If you don't, your news will get buried. Either way, its not old laurels we live with.

Ruby
Ahvree

EDIT
PS: Are the posts you talk about in the following paragraph public? It would most likely not be of much interest to anyone else, but the unfolding story I am always writing could use the info. Will you be releasing this information to everyone? I have reams of this same stuff. When I was at TCT I always figured ppl got busy with other projects (family, home, surface life, other groups), or they wanted to do what they wanted to do (not the mandate of someone else). Then again---you could be right. Maybe we could trade our PM and Posting resources. Is that ethical?

Quote:

What about people who don't want to contribute technical expertise, time, or something to do with messaging (so people without a project in mind)? Personal experience tells you to ignore them and fight to keep them out as they generally cause the most fuss and don't contribute to the community in any way (Archiver/TCT staff if you are confused PM me and I'll point out about a dozen threads on the TCT board.)

_________________
Cavern Communications Network Twitter:CCNDownUnder - Borrowed from Mr. Lewis Carroll: What is the use of a book, without pictures or conversations? KI 379788, Twitter: Ruby_ODegee

Last edited by Ahvree on Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:03 pm; edited 4 times in total

As an outsider, how about starting simple first?

Everyone who has a role in the dissemination of information in the cavern, however small, belongs to the Guild of Messengers.

This is an umbrella / representative organisation. It doesn't seek to supplant / change any of the existing setups like TCT, CCN, but sits above them.

Even freelancers should be able to agree on one person that they can trust, to represent their views to the Guild.

Two things are missing, which I leave to others - how do you become a representative in the GoM and what the guild actually does.

Rusty_Russell wrote:

As an outsider, how about starting simple first?

Everyone who has a role in the dissemination of information in the cavern, however small, belongs to the Guild of Messengers.

This is an umbrella / representative organisation. It doesn't seek to supplant / change any of the existing setups like TCT, CCN, but sits above them.

Even freelancers should be able to agree on one person that they can trust, to represent their views to the Guild.

Two things are missing, which I leave to others - how do you become a representative in the GoM and what the guild actually does.

The problem I see with this is that it lumps the freelancers together too much. Why not lump <smallnewsgroup1> and <smallnewsgroup2>? Why not lump them all together?

I think that all the current Messenger groups should get together as a group and come up with/vote on suggested rules, structures, etc. These then get presented to Cyan and they use that for the guilds. The pre-guild disappears and we then have a flat guild where everyone starts out equal and is elevated based on merit or quality of content.

_________________
-Whilyam

You could solve that depending on how many freelancers there were versus how many people already affiliated - arrange a suitably weighted number of freelance reps.

I put this question to you..

Find me a freelance news reporter in the cavern...

Thats right, there isn't really any. You have to be affiliated to get your information into the public domain.

The guild of messengers format I have been pushing for the last day or so (and describing in more or less detail for a while) is inclusive of all organisations showing their worth to the guild.


People are talking about explorers joining "the guild". What is "the guild" if you follow a guild method that doesn't void the already established organisations, there is NOTHING to join. Therefore you join and organisation or make your own and join THAT into the knowledge distribution society that is the guild.

And individual explorer when working on my model will not need to join the guild, it will be of no benefit to them as the guild will not give out any news itself. The minute the guild gives out its news (As opposed to it handing information to member organisations for them to give out) all other organisations then become void and will collapse.

PLEASE read my post and study my diagrams, lots of the questions being asked are answered through reading it.

http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12354

_________________
The ending will never be written as long as the called remain to continue on the path of those who came before

I am very impressed with everyone's postings. The discussion here has been awesome and the ideas presented are well thought out. You all have valid things to say, which is one of the reasons I asked that the GoMess posting also be put here so that no one would feel left out and that anyone who wanted to would feel free to post their opinions. I can see a good start of the process of working this out and continuing the dialogue will help everyone come to a better understanding of each group/individual(s) ideas and hopes for this. While not all things will be agreed upon, I think we can work through a lot of the differences of opinion - it will be a give and take and with the effort of all of us, we can become a cohesive group who can provide the explorers with the best possible service possible.

That being said, I think the idea (not sure who's it is) of having a Meet and Greet in the Guild Pub (if we do indeed get them this episode) would be a wonderful thing. It would be a nice kick off to the process and also might be a neat way of the various media groups to show new explorers what there is to offer and possibly find new talent to recruit. It also would be a great way of finding out what the individual explorer wants or expects of a GoMess. Possibly we could come up with a short poll to ask people (Kalypso did a great job on the cavern poll I saw) and get a sense of what others see/want/expect of us.

_________________
Moula:
DMom2K KI 74181
GameBoomer KI 83122

SL:
DMom2K Darwin

Citizen of the Metaverse and oh, yeah, The Dude abides....

Samsbase wrote:

Thats right, there isn't really any. You have to be affiliated to get your information into the public domain.

not exactly right Samsbase. All of us at CCN are freelance. We are independent producers who work on each other's projects.

Quote:

And individual explorer when working on my model will not need to join the guild, it will be of no benefit to them as the guild will not give out any news itself. The minute the guild gives out its news (As opposed to it handing information to member organisations for them to give out) all other organisations then become void and will collapse.

I am going to try to summarize your comments. If I am wrong, please let me know where to change them specifically. It is nice you clarified some of the other comments.

Are you saying?

-No individual explorer will join the GOM?
-It will be no benefit for any explorer to join (unofficial) GOM?
-The Guild of Messengers will not be a news service?
-The Guild will "broadcast" through existing cavern media?
-That the Guild of Messengers would replace existing groups, if allowed to be the cavern news service?

If you did says these things, you have laid out one proposal. I don't agree with the proposal, but at least its been made clear. I am suggesting there is another proposal to consider as follows:

-Anyone who chooses to wear the yellow tee (at least some days or with one avie) can join the GOM.
-The GOM establishes guidelines, mission statements, operation strategies, affiliations, and etc, from within.
-The GOM votes from its membership on issues related to master ships, missions statements, operation strategies and etc.
-The GOM decides which news services, existing or new to use in addition to their own in house service (if ever necessary and for surface stories).
-The GOM be open to everyone while it is coming together.
-No one gets to decide what the GOM is, but everyone gets to decide what the GOM will be.

Now there are (2) two proposals offered. I know there are many others out there. Some proposals have of been mentioned here, and just need a little summarizing. Maybe a thread should be opened for completely new proposals that are reasonable and make sense for a bonafide GOM that will appeal to Cyan and explorers?

How about it?

Proposals anyone?

Ruby

_________________
Cavern Communications Network Twitter:CCNDownUnder - Borrowed from Mr. Lewis Carroll: What is the use of a book, without pictures or conversations? KI 379788, Twitter: Ruby_ODegee

Last edited by Ahvree on Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total