For the record, GoMa is actually planning on doing things in-Cavern besides just beta-testing. Just haven't gotten anything up and running yet. We're still hammering out the details.

The Books of Commentary are one of the things that we would like to move to an actual in-Cavern presence. We'll be taking it to Cyan via both feature requests and in-character requests.

GoMa would like to include the information you are seeking/potentially creating in the BoC -- hence the part about asking you folks to consider collaborating with us.

Of course, it might need to wait until you are up and running a bit more solidly. Please just keep it in mind, that's all I ask.

_________________
Jishin's KI: 82165

Sorceress wrote:

Hi Doc!

I had considered an OOC application regarding coming up with our own historical content, but I wasn't honestly quite sure I would be up to the task of creating histories as high-quality as Cyan does. But I don't think it would hurt to try!

And no, I don't consider you to be hijacking the thread or possible Guild. I've been meaning to start contacting people, but my suddenly-changed work schedule has been knocking me out. I also wasn't sure if waiting until an episode was best, when I know most people would be around.

I can make the meeting tomorrow. Can't wait to get some ideas flowing.

Well, I've contacted people as best I can, but haven't heard anything back yet. I'm thinking that if maybe 5 of us (or 10, or 20) contacted them, there might be some change. So really, all I'm hoping for in the meeting is to take a lot of people who are all part of the "scholarly group" and see how many of us are actually thinking about the same thing, and working in the same direction.

_________________
DocOlanA
KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn

First, a big thanks to everyone who came out with such short notice. We're going to be having another meeting with more warning next time, but we really wanted to get together before the episode started, if nothing else so we could present the DRC with a united front.

I'll post the log below, but first a brief synopsis.

Due to the fact that any talking about how the guilds will help Uru, the game, is going to be OOC, the rest of this is in the OOC tag.

1.) There seem to be a lot of places for scholars in the other guilds. The Guild of Maintainers commentary books seem quite promising. We scholars want to support the other guilds as much as possible. However, it seems that none of the other guilds are really creating what we want - namely more historical texts about D'ni, like the Regeltavok Oorpah, or further journals revealing aspects of D'ni life and culture.

2.) Although it's possible Cyan is keeping this information from us for story reasons, it is far more likely that they simply don't have time, as they are understaffed and do have to put out ages on a fairly regular basis.

3.) So, the best thing to do is to approach Cyan about having outside writers help them. This would, of course, be subject to Cyan approval at every stage of production, and would likely only involve two or three people. Cyan would give these writers a bullet point list, the writers would create a "translated document" around it, Cyan would approve said document, and then release it to the public. This saves Cyan a whole lot of time, and ensures that we scholars get content.

4.) There will never be a #4 so long as I'm around.

5.) Those supporting this plan can do two things. They can approach the DRC in character and start requesting that they allow some explorer scholars to help them translate documents, and they can write a feature ticket out of character requesting that Cyan do the same, or find another way to release more "scholarly" content.

As an aside, from me, I know that everyone who is a scholar is going to want this position. But I hope that we can all work together and support each other, knowing that if this plan works, it will honestly be only two or three people in the whole cavern. For my own part, I don't care who it is, as long as we get our sweet, sweet content (I want my own copy of the Regeltavok Oorpah!)

The log follows.

(09/08 01:05:49) DocOlanA: This meeting is quasi-OOC, because you can't really talk about the guilds without talking about the possibilities they bring for player-created content.
(09/08 01:06:42) DocOlanA: As I see it, we've got an awesome opportunity for player created content in the game, or at least players taking some of the workload off of Cyan so we can get more content. However, out of all five guilds, not a one deals with the actual D'ni. They're all about writing new ages, or testing new ages, or mapping new ages, or other things that have to do with the present, rather than the 10,000 year history of the cavern.
(09/08 01:07:17) DocOlanA: So I was hoping we could kick around some ideas and figure out how we scholarly types can get involved, either by joining the existing five guilds, or by petitioning to form our own (and hopefully helping Cyan put out more "translations" by providing them with writers.)
(09/08 01:07:35) Sorceress: I'm interested in having a Guild of our own, and no, it's not because I just want a Guild Pub.
(09/08 01:08:22) DocOlanA: I'm also leaning towards a guild of our own. It's possible the Guild of Writers might be expanded to include D'ni translations, since we are technically writing . . . but the IC feel would be gone. Writers don't unearth documents, Archivists do.
(09/08 01:09:09) Lord Chaos: Why do we need a Guild?
(09/08 01:09:47) Old Man: I'm not sure of Cyan's current attitude about these things but there was some resistance a few years ago to building a WIki along those lines. They're guarding their knowledge pretty tightly.
(09/08 01:10:1 DocOlanA: I think that would be their main objection.
(09/08 01:10:21) Lord Chaos: Yes... we won't be shown anything new under Cyan are good and ready to do so.
(09/08 01:10:32) Lord Chaos: I meant "until Cyan..."
(09/08 01:10:44) DocOlanA: The thing is, I'm not sure how much is because Cyan isn't ready yet, and how much is because Cyan simply doesn't have the time.
(09/08 01:11:06) Sorceress: Honestly, there isn't a "need" per se--as an unofficial group we could do a lot. But if there's even a small chance to actually usher in or even contribute to new official Cyan content, I'd be interested in trying.
(09/08 01:11:07) Lord Chaos: They have to have the information in order to know where to go.
(09/08 01:11:20) DocOlanA: They're understaffed for an MMO, and they're putting out new content at a rather quick rate (to be honest, I didn't even expect a full mini-age a month, considering it normally takes them years to make a game.)
(09/08 01:11:55) Lord Chaos: I'm assuming the path ahead is at least storyboarded, with background built.
(09/08 01:12:00) DocOlanA: I know that Nick has promised the SoDK a new translation for about half a year now, and we haven't gotten it. I really don't think that's because they're not willing to tell us anything new, I think that's more because the folks at Cyan haven't had time to write it.
(09/08 01:12:2 Owehn: at least it shows us that Cyan is at least open to the idea
(09/08 01:13:22) Lord Chaos: I think that whatever we do--assuming a group of some sort coaslesces around this idea--we should do it while not counting on Cyan for anything.
(09/08 01:13:33) Old Man: The Writers are Blender and Alcugs types now?
(09/08 01:13:42) Lord Chaos: Pretty much, OM.
(09/08 01:13:46) Owehn: I think that's the general idea
(09/08 01:13:47) Old Man: k
(09/08 01:13:51) DocOlanA: The thing is, I think Cyan's got the path ahead covered. And it's a great story, don't get me wrong. But I want to know about the D'ni. I want to know what kind of currency they had, what ornamentations they had distinguishing class and social strata, what kind of pets they kept, and what rituals they used when they worshipped Yahvo.
(09/08 01:14:26) DocOlanA: I want to get translations of the Regeltavok Oorpah, and of merchant manifests from agricultural ages. The kind of thing that archaeologists need to reconstruct a civilization.
(09/08 01:14:32) Lord Chaos: I assume they've at least sketched those things out, Doc. How do we get Cyan to turn loose of the background?
(09/08 01:15:13) DocOlanA: Well, on the surface I do freelance writing for a major fantasy roleplaying tabletop setting. And I know that a lot of times it's not a matter of having the information (because if you're good, you do have the information,) it's a matter of writing it down.
(09/08 01:15:36) Lord Chaos: Which takes time, even in outline form.
(09/08 01:15:47) DocOlanA: Because Cyan would never just release a bullet pointed list of "Facts about the D'ni." They'd want US to discover it, by releasing fragments of documents, etc. And that takes a ton of time.
(09/08 01:16:27) Old Man: Which of the DRC are anthropologists if any?
(09/08 01:16:43) Sorceress: Perhaps if this Guild is formed and there's enough interest, Cyan might take the time to sit down and produce more historical content.
(09/08 01:16:55) Sorceress: Just Marie I think.
(09/08 01:17:19) Lord Chaos: The people who left the notebooks in the Library and on Tokotah Rooftop.
(09/08 01:17:25) Sorceress: And poor Marie hasn't had much anthropology-ing to do lately
(09/08 01:17:2 Lord Chaos: Marie was one of those, but there are others.
(09/08 01:17:30) DocOlanA: So, the Guild of Writers are going to be coding new ages. The Guild of Maintainers will be beta testing. My dream is a Guild of Archivists, which will write these fragments. The Guildmasters all sign non-disclosure agreements, we receive a bullet point list, and we use that to create fragments. They are reviewed by Cyan (which takes much less time than writing,) and when approved, are "discovered and translated" by the DRC.
(09/08 01:17:40) Sorceress: Do they still work for the DRC?
(09/08 01:18:03) Sorceress: The notebook writers I mean.
(09/08 01:18:07) Lord Chaos: No idea, Sorceress.
(09/08 01:18:15) Lord Chaos: IT's a nice idea, Doc.
(09/08 01:18:17) DocOlanA: No they don't.
(09/08 01:18:27) Old Man: Yes, sounds like it might work.
(09/08 01:18:35) DocOlanA: Nick was the last notebook writer still working for the DRC.
(09/08 01:18:42) Lord Chaos: Cyan has just never supported offboard producers, though.
(09/08 01:18:59) DocOlanA: That's true, LC. But Cyan also has never run an MMORPG before.
(09/08 01:19:21) DocOlanA: Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the reason that we have practically no more information about the D'ni than we had when MO:UL started is because they're being stingy and slow with their revelations.
(09/08 01:19:32) DocOlanA: But more and more, it seems like it's just a matter of them not having enough time.
(09/08 01:19:35) Sorceress: The question is, if Cyan puts the kibosh on us creating the documents, would you still be interested in this potential Guild?
(09/08 01:19:57) Sorceress: There are other, more IC-ish things we could do.
(09/08 01:20:03) DocOlanA: From a story standpoint? I'd love to.
(09/08 01:20:09) Sorceress: Me too
(09/08 01:20:17) DocOlanA: But in that case, we probably wouldn't get official sanction from the DRC like the "big five" are.
(09/08 01:20:4 Sorceress: Hmm, true. Or maybe they're seeing how successul these five are before going ahead with other Guilds.
(09/08 01:21:05) Lord Chaos: That's why I doubt this effort would ever turn into a guild. The envy factor would be sky-high.
(09/08 01:21:23) DocOlanA: I don't really care about the envy factor. I just want my content
(09/08 01:21:30) Sorceress: I think all the Five Guilds are running into that right now.
(09/08 01:21:36) Lord Chaos: Right now we have one functioning Guild with a mandate, a potential guild with a real job to do, and three wannabes.
(09/08 01:22:10) DocOlanA: And you know what? That's perfectly accurate, historically speaking. But the Guild of Writers, at least, are all for allowing anyone to join . . . as long as you learn the 3D coding
(09/08 01:22:16) DocOlanA: and programming skills.
(09/08 01:22:25) DocOlanA: The functioning guild being?
(09/08 01:22:32) Sorceress: Greeters
(09/08 01:22:41) DocOlanA: Because I'd say Greeters and Cartographers are both functioning. The GoC has done some slick work.
(09/08 01:23:03) Lord Chaos: I didn't mention the GoC because they're not one of the DRC ones... or are they?
(09/08 01:23:06) Old Man: Would be nice to work from withing the Writers. But sounds more and more like this can't be done that way. Sigh.
(09/08 01:23:06) DocOlanA: I mean, Minkata was all fine to figure out for myself the first time, but now I don't like there without the map that was made.
(09/08 01:23:11) DocOlanA: Cartographers are one of the big 5.
(09/08 01:23:12) Lord Chaos: If they are, then I misspoke.
(09/08 01:23:16) Lord Chaos: Sorry.
(09/08 01:23:19) DocOlanA: Greeters, Cartographers, Messengers, Writers, and Maintainers.
(09/08 01:23:35) Lord Chaos: Then we have two functioning Guilds, a potential (Messengers) and two wannabes.
(09/08 01:23:36) DocOlanA: I don't LINK there without the map.
(09/08 01:23:47) Owehn: Cartographers are, but I don't know that the group that calls itself the GoC is the same as the one that will eventually be set up by Cyan
(09/08 01:24:10) DocOlanA: I don't know about Maintainers, but the Writers are ready to go. A lot of them already make ages for UU and CC. They're just wanting the material to import it to MO:UL.
(09/08 01:24:12) Lord Chaos: Ah, that's a real can of worms, Owehn. This statement that Cyan can just come in and change things.
(09/08 01:24:42) From William Clark in William Clark's Relto: Getting close
(09/08 01:24:43) Lord Chaos: Given how Cyan has never allowed Alcugs to do anything public, I doubt it will ever happen.
(09/08 01:25:05) DocOlanA: I guess the question comes down to - why did Cyan go with the 5 guilds plot?
(09/08 01:25:12) DocOlanA: I'm assuming it's because they want PCC.
(09/08 01:25:19) Lord Chaos: PCC?
(09/08 01:25:5 Lord Chaos: Psst. Hey, mister. What's PCC mean?
(09/08 01:26:11) DocOlanA: Player-created-content. Sorry.
(09/08 01:26:16) Lord Chaos: Ah. Thanks.
(09/08 01:26:20) Sorceress: Player oh darn, you beat me
(09/08 01:26:31) Lord Chaos: No, that's PODYBM.
(09/08 01:26:35) Sorceress:
(09/08 01:26:50) DocOlanA: That's the thing. I'm only now considering approaching Cyan with this, because it only now seems that Cyan wants this kind of thing.
(09/08 01:26:54) Sorceress: I'm sure they didn't do this just to keep us busy between episodes
(09/08 01:26:59) Lord Chaos: My cynical side says Cyan put up the five guilds as a distraction.
(09/08 01:27:2 Lord Chaos: And it has certainly worked. The fora are full of arguments about Guilds. <G>
(09/08 01:28:0 DocOlanA: I don't know. See, I work for a national tabletop RPG campaign whose company reminds me of Cyan. Genius writers, inspired storylines, but has a problem with releasing content on time. Around the third year of their campaign, they started bringing in outsiders.
(09/08 01:28:37) Lord Chaos: INteresting... Were the outsiders volunteers?
(09/08 01:28:39) Old Man: Is Cate available?
(09/08 01:28:40) DocOlanA: Now, in their fifth year, we're creating about 2/3rds of their adventures, while they create the core 1/3. Their adventures advance the plot, our adventures fill in the gaps.
(09/08 01:28:55) Lord Chaos: Wow.
(09/08 01:29:34) Lord Chaos: Do your adventurers produce things that actually appear in the game?
(09/08 01:29:34) Sorceress: That's impressive.
(09/08 01:29:39) DocOlanA: Basically, every year we pitch them a year-long storyarc that we're going to write. Then we send them each adventure's outline, then the rough draft, then the final draft.
(09/08 01:29:52) DocOlanA: At each phase, they review and give us approval and changes.
(09/08 01:30:05) Lord Chaos: Very nice.
(09/08 01:30:33) Lord Chaos wishes some such could happen here
(09/08 01:30:35) DocOlanA: Yes. It's the Living Arcanis campaign, a tabletop Dungeons and Dragons campaign that's played at the national level (we've got a few thousand players I think.)
(09/08 01:30:35) Owehn: I see that as being a very effective way for us to contribute...PCC. Assuming, that is, that Cyan agrees and holds up their end
(09/08 01:31:05) Old Man: Hi Amun
(09/08 01:31:11) DocOlanA: That's the thing. MO:UL is just starting. Cyan's gone through this first "season" doing everything themselves, but I think they're hitting that wall where they just can't produce everything we want.
(09/08 01:31:12) Sorceress: Hello Amun
(09/08 01:31:13) Amun Aten: hello everybody
(09/08 01:31:1 Owehn: Hi Amun
(09/08 01:31:24) Lord Chaos: Shorah, Amun.
(09/08 01:31:29) peni: hi
(09/08 01:31:34) DocOlanA: I could be wrong. But I'm hoping that they might be open to having some writers work with them to create content.
(09/08 01:31:49) Lord Chaos: Well, I guess you'll just have to go ask. <G>
(09/08 01:31:5 DocOlanA: Pretty much
(09/08 01:32:05) Sorceress: The worst they can say is no
(09/08 01:32:17) Lord Chaos: This D-and-D campaign... played on paper, or with computers?
(09/08 01:32:25) DocOlanA: Paper. The right way
(09/08 01:32:2 Owehn: Hi Mari'
(09/08 01:32:30) Old Man: haha
(09/08 01:32:31) Owehn: and Ace
(09/08 01:32:34) Sorceress: Hi Mari', hi Ace
(09/08 01:32:36) Ace: Shorah
(09/08 01:32:36) Lord Chaos: True... I wish I could find a group to play with.
(09/08 01:32:40) Mari': Hello Guys
(09/08 01:32:42) Mari': Shorah
(09/08 01:32:47) Lord Chaos: Shorah, Ace... Hi, Mari'.
(09/08 01:32:51) DocOlanA: Shorah Mari, Amun, Ace.
(09/08 01:33:10) Mari' waves hello
(09/08 01:33:11) Old Man: auditorium
(09/08 01:33:35) Amun Aten: i wish they would fix whatever it is that causes you to stand when you close your ki...
(09/08 01:33:35) Mari': Sorry for the intruption
(09/08 01:33:36) DocOlanA: But anyway, that's basically my idea. Now my question is - do you folks think that's a good idea? Is it one you'd want to get behind? Do you think we can do that, but within the context of the existing guilds? Or do you think that we should be focusing elsewhere?
(09/08 01:33:52) Old Man: Okay. Way, way past my bedtime. I like your ideas. Will you be posting a synopsis on the forums?
(09/08 01:33:5 DocOlanA: Yes, Old man.
(09/08 01:34:03) Old Man: k thanks
(09/08 01:34:0 Old Man: I'll say good night then.
(09/08 01:34:12) Sorceress: Night OM
(09/08 01:34:19) peni: nite OM
(09/08 01:34:20) Amun Aten: i missed the whole meeting it seems, so I do not know the exact question.
(09/08 01:34:2 Mari': Good night Old Man
(09/08 01:34:40) Old Man: tale care all I hope you can get this going
(09/08 01:34:45) Old Man waves goodbye
(09/08 01:34:51) Amun Aten: if you are talking about the question of whether or not the scholarly types can fit their specialties into the framework of existing guilds...
(09/08 01:34:5 Amun Aten: then yes I think you can.
(09/08 01:35:23) DocOlanA: Basically, since Cyan is now open to players working with them through the guilds (we hope,) would we like to try and get some volunteers together to write new "translations" for Cyan, in hopes of getting more content about the D'ni that they currently, it seems, don't have time to produce themselves.
(09/08 01:35:3 DocOlanA: Actually, Amun, that's another question I had. Are you part of one of the guilds?
(09/08 01:35:45) Sorceress: Keep in mind that if we made this into a separate Guild, that doesn't necessarily stop us from helping other Guilds.
(09/08 01:36:11) DocOlanA: Right. I was hoping that folks in the big five guilds might come here, and let us know what kind of things we could help them with.
(09/08 01:36:15) Amun Aten: you could create your own "Guild of Scholars" or some such, and work in conjunction with other guilds. That would be an alternative.
(09/08 01:36:27) Amun Aten: and to answer the question, I am not formally involved with any Guild.
(09/08 01:36:45) DocOlanA: Well, I'm not really looking for a guild just to have a guild. It seems to me that the five guilds are actually going to be expected to do something, to actually produce something.
(09/08 01:37:16) Amun Aten: though I do know that the Maintainers are trying to re-create the Books of Commentaries that the old Guild used to maintain about each age.
(09/08 01:37:31) Amun Aten: and they will be needed people of arious expertise to help with that.
(09/08 01:37:40) Amun Aten: various*
(09/08 01:37:45) DocOlanA: See, that's great. That's something that I would love to help with. But again, that would require approval from Cyan.
(09/08 01:38:0 Amun Aten: basically, *EVERYTHING* requires approval from Cyan/DRC
(09/08 01:38:16) Amun Aten: and they are... less than responsive.
(09/08 01:38:1 Lord Chaos: "Approval from Cyan" is the weak point I see in all of these plans. They are so closed-mouth about everything.
(09/08 01:38:35) DocOlanA: That is a problem.
(09/08 01:38:55) Amun Aten: then you have the fact that so far it seems none of the actual Guilds that have started organizing (other than greeters) are actually endorsed
(09/08 01:38:5 Lord Chaos: Still, I think your idea is good. It would add to the depth of the game.
(09/08 01:39:00) DocOlanA: I've already entered a feature request for my idea (a few weeks ago.) I receive a response for the resEngs that they were forwarding it to development, but haven't heard anything since then.
(09/08 01:39:15) Lord Chaos: Probably a minority of players would really appreciate it, but there are quite a few who would go for it.
(09/08 01:39:47) Mari': I think they only have so much resources to work with and they probably won't take on anything that will require more time than they can devote
(09/08 01:39:55) DocOlanA: However, that was just me. One person. I'm hoping that a bunch of us, ICly requesting that a "Guild of Archivists" would be allowed to assist the DRC in translation and recording efforts, and OOCly requesting feature tickets for such a thing, might make more of an impact.
(09/08 01:40:20) Sorceress: There might True. They might be even end up spending more time on quality control than if they just made stuff themselves!
(09/08 01:40:2 Lord Chaos: We can try it, Doc.
(09/08 01:40:45) Amun Aten: you may wish to speak to the GoMa, too... they are talking of creating and archivist department or some such... what you are looking to do might be under the umbrella of the GoMa.
(09/08 01:40:47) Carval: I wonder if the Commentaries books could contain clues to "hidden content" that Cyan would be willing to put in an Age. It would allow serious players to go beyond the basic Age story and do additional things too.
(09/08 01:40:53) Waldorf: Shorah all
(09/08 01:41:03) Lord Chaos: Shorah, Waldorf.
(09/08 01:41:03) DocOlanA: That would be awesome, Carval.
(09/08 01:41:29) Carval: That way, the complaints about "I'm done with this Age, what is left?" could be reduced.
(09/08 01:41:31) Owehn: Hi Waldorf
(09/08 01:41:3 Lord Chaos: I think that if you become embroiled in any of the nascent Guilds, you'll get sucked into oblivion.
(09/08 01:41:3 Sorceress: This is the one time I wish Cyan would sidestep their IC DRCness and just tell us what's they're looking for with Guilds.
(09/08 01:41:42) Amun Aten: Carval, the commentary project of the GoMa is intended to be strictly documentary in terms of describing the Age and all is features, but not giving away any hints or secrets.
(09/08 01:41:56) Waldorf: ah ha
(09/08 01:42:06) DocOlanA: Again, I do freelance writing for a fantasy RPG setting. With them, I'll get an e-mail from the head of the company, and he'll tell me that he needs, say, a religious scroll telling the story of character A who did X, Y, and Z. He's just spent five minutes writing me two sentences.
(09/08 01:42:26) Carval: Ok, still, providing Cyan with a mechanism to stretch the interest in an Age by players would be cost-effective for them (and us)
(09/08 01:42:37) DocOlanA: I then spend a week thinking, writing, and editing. Because I already know the setting very well, he normally spends, at most, a few hours reviewing it after it's written. And then it's done.
(09/08 01:42:46) Lord Chaos: But that five minutes comes from years of trust: he knows you, and knows that you'll produce a documnet that fits the game.
(09/08 01:42:53) DocOlanA: That's true.
(09/08 01:42:59) Lord Chaos: You won't try to take over the game. We have people here who want to take it over.
(09/08 01:43:03) DocOlanA: That's absolutely true, LC.
(09/08 01:43:22) Ace: Doesn't it also presume that you have a general idea of the overall direction of this world?
(09/08 01:43:25) DocOlanA: But some of us want the opposite. We want to become fully immersed in the game, let it take over us, if you will.
(09/08 01:43:41) Sorceress: But Cyan knows they have a very talented fanbase, and I would be glad to have the opportunity to prove our worth to them.
(09/08 01:43:47) Lord Chaos: Look at the Guild of Messengers: much argrument over management structure, but little discussion of what the Guild will actually DO.
(09/08 01:44:1 Sorceress: That's why I wanted to gauge interest on the fourms before I started calling for Guild members
(09/08 01:44:1 Waldorf: It's a struggle for some of us to just stay plugged in to the whole saga
(09/08 01:44:27) DocOlanA: And again, that's why you set up approval and review at each stage. As they get to know us, it might take them a day or two for all the reviews. But as they get to know us, and start choosing whom they wish to work with, whom can best write the way they want, it will save them tons of time, and we get our content.
(09/08 01:44:2 Amun Aten: the Guilds that have the worst time right now is the GoW and the GoMa, because they will be hanging in limbo for... ever, probably.
(09/08 01:44:55) DocOlanA: I don't know, I'm not a member of either guild, but I've been catching up on the backlog from the GoW, and they actually seem to be doing all they can while waiting for the downtime.
(09/08 01:45:33) DocOlanA: Been taking advantage of it to learn 3D coding, programming, and setting up a structure.
(09/08 01:45:41) Amun Aten: Cyan really needs to come forward though and say "These are the five guilds, and their EXACT IC and OC duties are as follows..."
(09/08 01:45:59) DocOlanA: I don't think they know, Amun. I think part of this is that they want the players to step forward.
(09/08 01:46:06) Ace: They're waiting for self-organization
(09/08 01:46:17) Lord Chaos: Yah... and you can see how well that's working.
(09/08 01:46:3 Carval: I suspect that they are understaffed (like any development organization) and just don't have the time to think about anything but getting the next release out at the end of the month.
(09/08 01:46:4 Lord Chaos: The only groups that really work here are those that have collected around a real task.
(09/08 01:46:54) Waldorf: I think there's such a thing as TOO much player control/input
(09/08 01:47:11) DocOlanA: Now, I'm not going to talk organization in a meeting that was called yesterday. But who here thinks this is a good idea, and would be willing to talk to Cate and other DRC folk ICly over the next week?
(09/08 01:47:14) Carval: Clearly someone (Cyan) has to lead the core story.
(09/08 01:47:14) Lord Chaos: And you're right rabout that, Waldorf, which is why those picked to help will have to be carefully chosen.
(09/08 01:47:42) DocOlanA: And to be honest, when all's said and done, Cyan's going to need, what . . . two, maybe three writers they trust to write this content for them.
(09/08 01:47:44) Amun Aten: from what I have seen of the forming guilds, and this is just my opinion, there are too many people trying to be chiefs and not enough indians.
(09/08 01:47:53) Lord Chaos: If I get the chance, Doc, I'll talk to them. I'll also submit a feature request.
(09/08 01:48:09) Lord Chaos: Amen, Amun!
(09/08 01:48:11) Sorceress: I'd be willing as well.
(09/08 01:48:14) DocOlanA: Amen to that, Amun.
(09/08 01:48:20) Carval: There is nothing wrong in having an organization like this supply ideas to a group of trusted writers that interact with Cyan to get it implemented.
(09/08 01:48:40) DocOlanA: So first . . . there has to be a clear understanding that the vast majority of any guild we make will be doing the same things the non-affiliated guilds are doing now. Studying existing material, speculating, and researching.
(09/08 01:49:00) Sorceress: And I have no problem with that.
(09/08 01:49:05) Lord Chaos: Right. And I doubt that I would be good at such.
(09/08 01:49:10) Amun Aten: each group REALLY has to say "Okay, these (two or three or four) people are in charge, now let' get this show on the road"... but instead they are bickering over management structure before they even have a clue of what there is to be managed...
(09/08 01:49:41) Lord Chaos: Exactly, Amun... if the Rooftop Volunteer Group operated that way, we'd never have produced a single party.
(09/08 01:49:49) DocOlanA: And that includes me. I've seen tons of people as talented, if not more so, than me. For me, though, even if I'm not one of the writers, I want the content, and this is the best way I've thought of to get it. So I'll support the idea, even if I'm not ultimately involved. That's the kind of people we'd want.
(09/08 01:50:24) Amun Aten: whaever the plan is, count me in. I am all for improving the Uru experience in whatever way I can for as many people as I can.
(09/08 01:50:39) DocOlanA: I just want my copy of the Regeltavok Oorpah, dangit!
(09/08 01:50:47) Amun Aten: Hell, that's why I created my hood's website and act as their unofficial secretary
(09/08 01:50:57) Lord Chaos: Yah... I'd like to read the whole thing myself.
(09/08 01:51:11) Sorceress: Above all, this should be an enjoyable experience. This may be a game we all adore, but in the grand scheme, it's still just a game that should be FUN
(09/08 01:51:14) DocOlanA: I don't care if I write it or someone else writes it, I just want a copy
(09/08 01:51:19) Lord Chaos: I want to know more of the Grower, too.
(09/08 01:51:46) DocOlanA: Yeah. Some translated commentaries on the Watcher's prophecies would be awesome. But that would probably be one of those "no, we're not telling the players that yet" things.
(09/08 01:51:52) Lord Chaos: I'd like to know what Er'cana is all about. Can't be just to make those silly pellets.
(09/08 01:52:10) Sorceress: I want something that we're not getting--Katha Island
(09/08 01:52:22) Owehn: there are several books referenced in the King's journals - those would be fun to have as well
(09/08 01:52:40) DocOlanA: Still, I was thinking about it the other day, and I realized that we don't even know how the D'ni economy worked. We know they had material possessions, thanks to Kadish and King Naygen, but we don't know what kind of goods they used, if they had coinage or if it was for barter, if it was a free market, or a state-controlled market, or something in between, or what.
(09/08 01:52:59) DocOlanA: So even something as simple as, say, a merchant's manifest would give us a wealth of information.
(09/08 01:53:0 Owehn: pun intended?
(09/08 01:53:13) Lord Chaos: Right. And where'd they get electrical power? How did the economy work?
(09/08 01:53:15) Ace: Thanks for letting us listen in, Doc
(09/08 01:53:20) Sorceress: We know the society was pretty class-divided by the end...
(09/08 01:53:30) DocOlanA: Please, don't just listen in, comment. Give your own ideas.
(09/08 01:53:33) Mari': Thnks Doc, see you latter
(09/08 01:53:3 Amun Aten: actually, their power was generated by steam, heated by the lava tubes under the cavern
(09/08 01:53:45) Sorceress: See ya Mari'
(09/08 01:54:00) Ace: I do, when I have something to say
(09/08 01:54:10) DocOlanA: But there are two big things I'd like to see. 1. A Guild of Archivists working with Cyan, and 2. Scholars working with the other five guilds. Because this isn't about competition, or having "the best" guild, or wanting a guild because we were "left out." This is about things we can do to make the game better.
(09/08 01:54:15) Carval: There is the entire issue of D'ni's advanced/retro technology. What are its sources? Did it advance?
(09/08 01:54:34) DocOlanA: Right. Getting hold of a book from Garternay would be awesome for that, Carval.
(09/08 01:54:45) Lord Chaos: Yes, Carval... some tech seems very advanced, but some in 18th Century.
(09/08 01:55:02) Sorceress: Part of its charm
(09/08 01:55:05) Carval: "Steam Punk" in aboveground terms
(09/08 01:55:17) Lord Chaos: That's why I think leaving "Guild" out of the name would be a good thing. Less competition, envy and knock-down tendency.
(09/08 01:55:31) Amun Aten: make it an "Institute" instead?
(09/08 01:55:37) Lord Chaos: Yes, Amun.
(09/08 01:55:50) Lord Chaos: Translator's Institute.
(09/08 01:55:51) Amun Aten: good idea
(09/08 01:56:15) DocOlanA: The main reason why I suggested "Guild" was because that seems to be the "IC" way Cyan is working with us. But for me, I'd just as soon stick with groups like the SoDK, DLF, etc., and have just a few people who might not even be necessarily known, creating content.
(09/08 01:56:3 DocOlanA: Again, I just want my copy of the Oorpah. I don't really care how I get it
(09/08 01:57:30) Carval: Some of the Ages just need gobs of irrelevant detail in the documents found lying around. Not everything has to be there to advance you through the Age.
(09/08 01:57:47) Lord Chaos: Right. Something for the cuious among us to get cuious about.
(09/08 01:57:49) DocOlanA: Indeed, Carval.
(09/08 01:57:53) Sorceress: Exactly
(09/08 01:58:01) Amun Aten: my thoughts exactly
(09/08 01:58:1 Lord Chaos: Something to READ. I remember all the hours I spent in Myst and Riven reading stuff and getting the clues behind the clues.
(09/08 01:58:20) Lord Chaos: I miss that.
(09/08 01:58:36) Owehn: I think other people do too
(09/08 01:58:41) Carval: Again, I think Cyan invests so much in building an Age, and then you are done with it in a week. If they could extend its interest life, it would be valuable to them and us.
(09/08 01:58:47) Sorceress: My favorite part in To D'ni was reading all the books on the Kings.
(09/08 01:58:54) DocOlanA: Okay. So please, in character, bug the DRC about letting the scholars work with them, and if you would, submit a feature request suggesting Cyan work with a few players to create this content.
(09/08 01:58:54) Lord Chaos: Then I got to Myst 3 and religiously read all of Sasvedro's journals... and about halfway through realized they meant NOTHING!
(09/08 01:58:57) Amun Aten: it would be great if someone would develop the "mundane" story lines too, like chronicling the lives of a D'ni family or something
(09/08 01:59:11) DocOlanA: The Hall of Kings is still my favorite place in the city.
(09/08 01:59:30) Amun Aten: yes teh Hall of Kings is awesome
(09/08 01:59:37) DocOlanA: Right. A journal kept by, say, a minor guildsman in the Guild of Stonecutters or something.
(09/08 01:59:47) Lord Chaos: Yes... where did the workers live and what did they do? To support the Guilds there had to be a lot of worker bees.
(09/08 02:00:01) Amun Aten: yeah that would be interesting to a lot of people
(09/08 02:00:02) DocOlanA: Leevo 15. Forgot our anniversary. Must remember to go by the Guild of Confectioners for chocolate roses.
(09/08 02:00:1 Sorceress: Hah, yeah!
(09/08 02:00:49) Lord Chaos: Leevo 16. Looking fo rnew apartment.
(09/08 02:01:01) Amun Aten: of course, 95% of the D'ni language is still unknown, so we'd have to write everything in English or D'ninglish
(09/08 02:01:0 Sorceress: I gotta go. I'll be here bright-eyed and bushy-tailed for Deception tomorrow
(09/08 02:01:16) Amun Aten: see ya Sorceress
(09/08 02:01:17) Lord Chaos: Bye, Sorceress...
(09/08 02:01:26) Sorceress: Night all, and thanks so much Doc for holding this meeting!
(09/08 02:01:26) Lord Chaos: I need to go too. I'm tired.
(09/08 02:01:30) DocOlanA: And with that, I think that's a good place for an official end.
(09/08 02:01:35) Owehn: aaah! no d'ninglish! ;0
(09/08 02:01:3 Lord Chaos: OK.
(09/08 02:01:3 DocOlanA: Sorceress - thank YOU. It was your thread that got me started.
(09/08 02:01:44) Sorceress blushes
(09/08 02:01:46) Owehn: bye sorceress!
(09/08 02:01:51) DocOlanA: The credit is as much yours as mine. See you tomorrow.
(09/08 02:01:5 Owehn: bye LC!
(09/08 02:02:07) Lord Chaos: Good start for a group, when the nominal leader gives credit to others.
(09/08 02:02:07) Jacquet: well I missed it all because I was at Thend's meeting. Did you guys come up witih something good?
(09/08 02:02:1 Lord Chaos: Good night.
(09/08 02:02:21) Lord Chaos waves goodbye
(09/08 02:02:3 DocOlanA: For a preliminary meeting, yes. I'll probably call another meeting at a more agreeable time (like a weekend midday, to accomodate our friends across the pond,) to get more into it.
(09/08 02:03:01) Jacquet: will you post what you came up with? please?
(09/08 02:03:05) Carval: Where are you tracking your meetings (web site?)
(09/08 02:03:10) DocOlanA: But basically, we're going to try to convince Cyan that working with a few scholars to create content would be the best way to get us those "translations" we keep begging for.
(09/08 02:03:27) Jacquet: that's good
(09/08 02:03:44) DocOlanA: So we're going to talk to the DRC in character to convince them to let scholars start working with them, and some of us are going to be submitting feature requests for Cyan to let a few players start working with them.
(09/08 02:04:01) Amun Aten: I shall monitor this in the forums and by whatever other means available. In the mean time, I must go and perform my 'hood duties. Thanks for holding this meeting
(09/08 02:04:10) DocOlanA: Thanks for coming, Amun.
(09/08 02:04:1 Amun Aten: no problem
(09/08 02:04:32) Owehn: nice to see you Amun
(09/08 02:04:49) Carval: bye
(09/08 02:04:55) DocOlanA: Oh yes. Incidentally, the color for the Guild of Archivists is gold, which is why I'm wearing this jacket. But as we're not really starting a guild so much as testing the waters for a few people to work with Cyan, I guess that doesn't matter so much.
(09/08 02:05:30) Jacquet: well, I'll try for the next meeting Doc. See ya.
(09/08 02:07:10) Owehn: i think I'm going to head out too - it's getting pretty late
(09/08 02:07:29) DocOlanA: Okay Owehn.

_________________
DocOlanA
KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn

Quote:

If I may drop OOC for a bit (and I HATE to do this,) the Guild of Writers is talking about age creation, the Guild of Maintainers about beta testing, the Guild of Cartographers and Messengers about fulfilling actual duties in Uru Live.

That is all we can do for now.

Number One Rule : "Do not introduce your own facts, or alter existing facts in Cyans storyline with out permission."

There are many many IC things that we want to be doing, but doing them is going to move very slowly.

_________________
Waymet

Jishin wrote:

For the record, GoMa is actually planning on doing things in-Cavern besides just beta-testing.

I'm kinda curious I thought Cyan used the rehearsal members to beta test new material. What beta testing does the GoMa plan to do?

_________________

We are going to be doing testing in the wide and wonderful world of Fan Ages.

But there is a small mountain worth of preparation between that goal and us.

_________________
Waymet

Doc,

I hope you don't mind if I insinuate myself into this conversation.

1) I love your enthusiasm. And I have a LOT of respect for what you created with the Students of D’ni Knowledge.

2) I'm a little concerned about your motivation -- opposing/confronting the DRC. You can certainly do that, and bring along as many supporters as you can gather -- I may be there beside you. But don't call it a guild if you do. Those of us who have been hot and heavy in the guild conversation for many months are pretty much on the same page with regards to "using" the guilds as a source of power or influence or as a political football. We don't want that to happen. In fact, many of use are being very vigilant in our efforts to AVOID the appearance of power or power in fact. The majority seem to agree that distributed power is better than concentrated power, etc.

3) Linguists, Astronomers, etc. You talk of "bringing" them under the Guild of Archivists. Ahem. You really ought to at least buy them flowers first. And dinner. Actually I think current etiquette states that what you are proposing is really not appropriate until at least the fourth or fifth date. Seriously, have you ever had the company you work for bought out? New management trying to tell you how to do the job you've been doing perfectly well for years? Well, that's what you're proposing.

4) There is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO rule four.

5) There has been a great deal of time and energy spent by many people over many years on the de facto official Archives, which is the DPWR. Let me give you a little history: Back in around March I started a Guild of Maintainers, the job of its members being to regularly inspect Ages and areas of the cavern looking for new content and changes in content, as well as bugs, and to report them to the community. There was a massive outcry from the community against our using the name "Maintainers." This was long before even the first hint that Cyan or the DRC would ever make guilds an official part of the game. So I asked RAWA for permission to use the name, and he and Rand eventually concluded that what we had in mind did not fit their vision for an eventual Guild of Maintainers, and that what I proposed really belonged under the umbrella of the Guild of Archivists. At which point I promptly changed the name of my guild to the Inspectors and went in search of anybody who had already laid claim to the Guild of Archivists. I found Alahmnat, the creator and proprietor of the DPWR (and now an employee of Cyan). He and I discussed at great length the future of the Guild of Archivists, and we (and as much of the community who was paying attention agreed) that this already formidable archive should be the foundation for any future official Guild. And my Inspectors have been contributing to it (since the advent of episodic content pretty much made the effort of being the first to find and report new content moot). Andy Legate of the Inspectors and Alahmnat are working together to update and modernize the Age descriptions. But that is only the beginning. There is much to be done, and in fact I suggested to Sorceress when she started this thread to contact you about contributing to that project. Bottom line, Doc, it appears to several of us (based on your comments in the Maintainers Pub) as if you are strolling in with a "brand new" idea to start up this Guild, and would be willing to let the rest of us join you. Forgive me if I misunderstand your intent. But perhaps a better approach would be to join the work in progress and make an effort to persuade those involved to see your way of thinking. From my many experiences starting, inventing, participating in and/or running groups and guilds I would have to say I am certain that would be a better approach.

6) A lot of what you are talking about doing is really moving outside the universe of the Guild of Archivists, into the universe of Game Creator. I realize you expect to be guided by Cyan's work-in-progress, but in fact you are talking about starting a Guild for the purpose of inventing D'ni history that does not yet exist. Let me just state for the record that if you are granted this task, I want you to adopt me and let me bring you your slippers in the morning. Because I have been trying in numerous ways to get RAWA to allow me to do exactly this (although in a much less ambitious way) and he has never acquiesced. But all that aside, now that you are proposing to create an official Guild for this purpose, I find many problems with it:

a) Power. You are proposing to be allowed to see Cyan's secret playbook and make notes in it. People are going to be REALLY jealous at first and REALLY angry later, when you don't do it their way. Which brings up ...

b) Exclusivity. The one things the official Guilds can NEVER have. While it is true that Writers may need to have certain levels of skill not possessed by all before they can join the GoW, and the same for Maintainers, this is not really the same as being exclusive. We are willing to provide the tools and train the members. One will simply need to achieve a certain skill-level before they can do the work of the guild. But will this really be the case for the GoA? Are you going to let ANYBODY join and start making up D'ni history? Naturally not. And that makes calling it a Guild a problem.

c) Canon. It will all become suspect. Unless you miraculously achieve the same level of adoration as Cyan, anything you produce will be second-rate (the same way any fan-based storyline take a backseat to official content). But if you start contributing to the whole, it will all be considered as potentially second-rate. And it will be judged and debated and picked to death. Think about Tricia and how her "translations" were received.

DocOlanA, I would LOVE to see this idea succeed. But I think it needs a lot of serious thought and input by a lot of people before it can be made workable. And you're going to want those people on your side.

_________________

Montgomery - Maintainer Grand Master of Inspections (ret.)

Most of this is being discussed at the "Reteltee's challenge to scholars" thread now, since that seems to be the first necessary step, but just for clarity.

Montgomery wrote:

1) I love your enthusiasm. And I have a LOT of respect for what you created with the Students of D’ni Knowledge.

Thank you. I have a lot of respect for the many projects you've been part of, and the way you so clearly express your views of the cavern.

Quote:

2) I'm a little concerned about your motivation -- opposing/confronting the DRC. You can certainly do that, and bring along as many supporters as you can gather -- I may be there beside you. But don't call it a guild if you do. Those of us who have been hot and heavy in the guild conversation for many months are pretty much on the same page with regards to "using" the guilds as a source of power or influence or as a political football. We don't want that to happen. In fact, many of use are being very vigilant in our efforts to AVOID the appearance of power or power in fact. The majority seem to agree that distributed power is better than concentrated power, etc.

I made this clear in the other thread, but my ultimate join here is in no way to confront the DRC. To the contrary, confronting the DRC means that any attempts to assist them in the cavern will fail. My goal is to convince the DRC (OOC: Cyan) to allow the explorers to assist them with translations (OOC: Let a small group of us write for them) because they don't seem to have the time to do it themselves. As we noted during the meeting, there probably wouldn't be more than 2 or 3 people who would be doing this, and everyone else should be supportive no matter who those people are. When I pitched that idea to Reteltee, he indicated that the DRC would like to see a functioning Guild of Archivists before they considered actually giving them official sanction, so that's my first goal. It's not a power grab (there are so many better ways to do that,) and it's definitely not anti-DRC. It may be considered somewhat confrontational, but only in the sense that it will prove a point. That player scholars can work together, can produce some top-notch material, and are skilled, responsible, and *cough* discreet enough to help the DRC with translations. The DRC apparently doesn't believe that right now, I hope to prove it to them.

Quote:

3) Linguists, Astronomers, etc. You talk of "bringing" them under the Guild of Archivists. Ahem. You really ought to at least buy them flowers first. And dinner. Actually I think current etiquette states that what you are proposing is really not appropriate until at least the fourth or fifth date. Seriously, have you ever had the company you work for bought out? New management trying to tell you how to do the job you've been doing perfectly well for years? Well, that's what you're proposing.

I'm not really sure where you got this idea, but let me squelch it right now. There are no plans to "buy out" any existing groups. Honestly, I'm not even sure how that could possibly happen, unless the group wholesale wanted to be bought out. HOWEVER, I hope that many of the Linguists, Astronomers, etc., will come to the meeting on the 22nd, and will work with us. I have nothing but respect for the scholars in the cavern, and lots of them have specialties that I don't have, specialties that any serious attempt at creating a Guild of Archivists will need. It's not a takeover, it's working with everyone.

Quote:

4) There is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO rule four.

Darn Skippy.

Quote:

5) There has been a great deal of time and energy spent by many people over many years on the de facto official Archives, which is the DPWR. Let me give you a little history: Back in around March I started a Guild of Maintainers, the job of its members being to regularly inspect Ages and areas of the cavern looking for new content and changes in content, as well as bugs, and to report them to the community. There was a massive outcry from the community against our using the name "Maintainers." This was long before even the first hint that Cyan or the DRC would ever make guilds an official part of the game. So I asked RAWA for permission to use the name, and he and Rand eventually concluded that what we had in mind did not fit their vision for an eventual Guild of Maintainers, and that what I proposed really belonged under the umbrella of the Guild of Archivists. At which point I promptly changed the name of my guild to the Inspectors and went in search of anybody who had already laid claim to the Guild of Archivists. I found Alahmnat, the creator and proprietor of the DPWR (and now an employee of Cyan). He and I discussed at great length the future of the Guild of Archivists, and we (and as much of the community who was paying attention agreed) that this already formidable archive should be the foundation for any future official Guild. And my Inspectors have been contributing to it (since the advent of episodic content pretty much made the effort of being the first to find and report new content moot). Andy Legate of the Inspectors and Alahmnat are working together to update and modernize the Age descriptions. But that is only the beginning. There is much to be done, and in fact I suggested to Sorceress when she started this thread to contact you about contributing to that project. Bottom line, Doc, it appears to several of us (based on your comments in the Maintainers Pub) as if you are strolling in with a "brand new" idea to start up this Guild, and would be willing to let the rest of us join you. Forgive me if I misunderstand your intent. But perhaps a better approach would be to join the work in progress and make an effort to persuade those involved to see your way of thinking. From my many experiences starting, inventing, participating in and/or running groups and guilds I would have to say I am certain that would be a better approach.

I'm strolling in with a realization that we haven't gotten any new material on the D'ni since Nick White gave the SoDK the Creation myth, beyond a few little hints in the Jalak book. My goal is to create an official, DRC sanctioned guild. The DRC sanctioned guilds will, theoretically, actually be doing things OOC to improve the game, and so will the Guild of Archivists, in my vision. Two or three of us would be working with Cyan to actually write "translations" of D'ni texts. I'm not trying to muscle in on anyone's territory, I'm not trying to say that a group of scholars is an original thing (heck, I've already created one.) What I am saying is that we haven't gotten new information on the D'ni, and I tend to think it's more a matter of the DRC and Cyan not having time then them trying to keep things from us. Reteltee has indicated that the DRC wants us to prove we can create a functioning guild before the DRC is willing to work with us. So my goal now is to create a functioning guild.

DPWR is an awesome site. A really, really awesome site that I use all the time, along with D'ni Desk Reference and other great websites. But they're not an in-cavern guild, I haven't seen any real attempts by them to create an in-cavern guild. I'm sorry if I'm the new kid on the block here, but I've got a goal, I'm working towards it. I would love to talk to the people behind DPWR, see if they're willing to make their excellent website the backbone of a Guild of Archivists, or if not, simply learn from them so we don't face the same pitfalls.

Quote:

6) A lot of what you are talking about doing is really moving outside the universe of the Guild of Archivists, into the universe of Game Creator. I realize you expect to be guided by Cyan's work-in-progress, but in fact you are talking about starting a Guild for the purpose of inventing D'ni history that does not yet exist. Let me just state for the record that if you are granted this task, I want you to adopt me and let me bring you your slippers in the morning. Because I have been trying in numerous ways to get RAWA to allow me to do exactly this (although in a much less ambitious way) and he has never acquiesced. But all that aside, now that you are proposing to create an official Guild for this purpose, I find many problems with it:

a) Power. You are proposing to be allowed to see Cyan's secret playbook and make notes in it. People are going to be REALLY jealous at first and REALLY angry later, when you don't do it their way. Which brings up ...

Yup. I am indeed proposing exactly that. Not necessarily me, but someone, because it seems that Cyan doesn't have the time to give us this information themselves. As someone who writes for a national tabletop RPG campaign, I know full well how long and how hard it is to create this material. And as a freelance writer who has written sourcebook material and many, many adventures for a national tabletop RPG campaign with a couple thousand players, I know all about the jealousy, and the anger. I also know that if people like me didn't do it, there wouldn't be a national tabletop RPG campaign for those couple thousand players to play.

Quote:

b) Exclusivity. The one things the official Guilds can NEVER have. While it is true that Writers may need to have certain levels of skill not possessed by all before they can join the GoW, and the same for Maintainers, this is not really the same as being exclusive. We are willing to provide the tools and train the members. One will simply need to achieve a certain skill-level before they can do the work of the guild. But will this really be the case for the GoA? Are you going to let ANYBODY join and start making up D'ni history? Naturally not. And that makes calling it a Guild a problem.

Yes, it's exclusive. I fully expect Cyan/DRC to hand-pick one, two, or three people to work with them. The Guild of Archivists will be a base of people who have proven they have a love and respect for the history of D'ni, a willingness to work, to meet deadlines, to produce superior work, to not publish until they are sure of their facts and have been reviewed, and to follow guidelines, and thus will be the perfect pool for them to choose from. Ambitious? Yes. Possibly futile? Maybe, it's up to Cyan. Worth it? In my opinion.

Quote:

c) Canon. It will all become suspect. Unless you miraculously achieve the same level of adoration as Cyan, anything you produce will be second-rate (the same way any fan-based storyline take a backseat to official content). But if you start contributing to the whole, it will all be considered as potentially second-rate. And it will be judged and debated and picked to death. Think about Tricia and how her "translations" were received.

I'm not sure you're getting the concept. Right now, without official sanction, we will produce no new "canon" content. This is not a fan storyline, it is not fanfiction. Now there is plenty of canon content left to work with, lots of avenues that have not yet been explored.

After official sanction, the DRC will, in my vision, hand-pick a few volunteers to work as their translation team. These people won't have to be achieving the same level of adoration as Cyan, because they will be working for and with Cyan. They will "create" the canon content that Cyan assigns them to create. They will, in effect, be freelance writers for Uru, everything they write being reviewed by Cyan, at which point Cyan decides what to release to the players or not.

That's the way it is with a large number of tabletop RPG campaigns that have national followings, and to be perfectly honest, due to the deep levels of story involved in Uru, it's far more like a tabletop campaign than a standard MMORPG.

Try to understand my thought processes here.

1. We're not getting any new content about the D'ni. All our content is ages, and if we're lucky we may glean a few facts from an accompanying journal, but the journals are more functional than historical.

2. I'm fairly certain Cyan has heard our call for new content about the D'ni. Considering the awesome storyline throughout the whole Myst saga, I'm fairly certain Cyan cares about their content about the D'ni, and doesn't wish to deny us.

3. Thus, my conclusion is that Cyan simply doesn't have enough time, which is understandable. They run a great MMORPG, yet have a staff undersized for any MMORPG. They are expected, by the clamoring of the playerbase, to produce tons of new ages rapidly, and they have to write a continuing storyline with the Bahro and everything.

4. No #4.

5. Looking at points 1-3, the solution seems to be freelance writers. Those explorers who really, really know the universe would make the best choices for freelance writing. Any such explorer would need to be able to meet a deadline, to work within guidelines set by Cyan, to be able to handle criticism and take an edited review seriously, and would be able to resist the urge to talk about anything they wrote, since they would essentially be ghost writing it, then the DRC, not that player, would release the "newly discovered translation."

6. Reteltee said that the DRC isn't willing to work with explorers like that right now. They want to see that it would be a wise choice. Caution is understandable, especially given the level of quality that Cyan demands. So . . .

7. A Guild of Archivists. A structure already in place for scholars who wish to join. Producing reports that have NO new canon content, but takes current canon and analyzes it, possibly (hopefully) drawing some new conclusions. Serious scholarly work, done on a professional level, sources cited, rationale explained. Why does Teledahn's sun move so fast? Was there any interaction between the D'ni and the surface in the historical record? What is the ecology like on Kadish Tolesa? These are questions that can be answered, with research and patience, or at least further explored using existing resources. It would also prove to the DRC that there is a pool of explorers willing to put the time and effort in to making the game better, a pool of explorers they could draw from.

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DocOlanA
KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn