I’ve read many threads on all these guilds. It seems like all of us must choose a guild to belong to. If we don’t, are we going go miss out on some content? Choosing a guild is done by merely wearing their T-shirt, but we’re only allowed to have one in our closet at a time. I guess if a person is “guildless”, then they will be left out; they won’t have certain accesses; their rights will be restricted.

I clicked on the “sticky” for the Maintainers Guild and was shocked! In order to belong to their guild, we must submit an application!? AN APPLICATION?? We must answer questions!? . . . we may or may not be accepted?! Something is very wrong here.

Look, this is just a game! There should not be regiments established like this that will exclude players. We are all paying to play this game, now we have to have a skill or special ability, or a 2-inch thick resume to be a member of a guild. Reality and fantasy are being distorted.

Just paying my monthly fee should be enough to allow me to participate in every aspect of the game. I’m thinking that maybe having to apply for a guild violates my rights as a player of this game. I also know that not everyone can write code, but that is not the point. A person should still be able to belong to a Guild of their choosing. If I can't write code, so what! I should still be able to be a member.

The sooner it is realized that by excluding people, people may no longer want to play this game. They may not renew their accounts. A lot of people joined GT just for Uru. If a lot of people quite Uru, and it seems GT doesn’t have enough money for Uru anyway, there may not be a Uru next year. Then all your little elitist guilds can stay alive somewhere in hyperspace.

Just remember this is a game, and everything should be done “inside” the game. Do you get it? Inside the game! If all this stuff is done elsewhere, it isn’t a game anymore.

I realize that Uru is a very unique game, but be careful how you play. Don’t carry things too far.

If you feel some hostility here, then you’ve gotten my message. There is something wrong with having to file an application, and then be approved, to play part of a game. (Remember, everything associated with Uru, be it meetings, guilds, writing code, etc. should be INSIDE the game, not on the outside.)

I will also be sending GameTap and Cyan similar letters.

GthG --

How far did you read in that particular thread? Not very, I'd guess. (Trust me, that first page in there is not something I like looking at either, so I wouldn't blame you if you ran screaming.)

Currently, the Maintainer Supporters are *discussing* having an application. It's not even decided that we actually will have one. The idea of the application is pretty much entirely to figure out what the person is interested in, so we can find them their best spot in the guild, and help teach them what they need to know. That is further on in the thread. (Believe me, that first draft ... *shakes head*)

Edit: For absolute clarity's sake: the Maintainer Supporters are not planning on denying anyone's entry into anything. Is that clear?

So please, please relax? Please come and take a closer look. We don't bite. We are not trying to keep people out. We are trying to figure out how best to include people.

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Jishin's KI: 82165

Last edited by Jishin on Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

I would have no problem with it if it were CYAN or similar group that approved / denied such applications, for whatever reason.

But a group of fellow explorers who just happened to jump up ans say "Hey! Let's make a forum or website and... and... We'll be in charge because we acted the fastest!! Right? Yeah!"


If that's how the Guild set up works, you can take it and shove it down the great shaft.

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Everyone changes, given the chance.

Jishin wrote:

so we can find them their best spot in the guild, and help teach them what they need to know.

Where and how did you come by this knowledge to place people and help teach them what they need to know?

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semplers' shards

semplerfi wrote:

Jishin wrote:

so we can find them their best spot in the guild, and help teach them what they need to know.

Where and how did you come by this knowledge to place people and help teach them what they need to know?

semplerfi --

I've worked as a coach before. I actually do know how to do some of this stuff, but I don't think that's what you're asking. I think you're asking why I elected myself lord-high-muckamuck, which I have not done.

There are some expectations of what the Guild of Maintainers' duties will likely be. Those duties will likely involve testing of fan-written Ages created by the Guild of Writers.

Many of the people in the Maintainers Supporters have the skills to do software testing already. I have been a professional software tester, as have many other people who have already come to the Maintainer Supporters. Many other people who are interested in the Maintainers do not have those skills. This is purely an opportunity to pass along those knowledges *if and when they are needed*.

Again, this is all in draft. Nothing is official. How many times do I have to say this? Nothing is official! We are gathering ideas of what the guild might be, as I recall Greydragon specifically suggested we do.

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Jishin's KI: 82165

I am sorry Jishin. I was not very clear. I am not trying to put you on the defensive. I was curious about how you acquired your knowledge base. I will try again.

Where and how did you come by this Maintainers' knowledge to place people and help teach them what they need to know?

I would think that everyone would start out as a first-step apprentice in any guild.

I do not think you have elected your self. I see you as being very enthusiastic. Thank you for that.

_________________
semplers' shards

GthG wrote:

If we don’t, are we going go miss out on some content? Choosing a guild is done by merely wearing their T-shirt, but we’re only allowed to have one in our closet at a time. I guess if a person is “guildless”, then they will be left out; they won’t have certain accesses; their rights will be restricted.

No rights will be restricted. Your're not going to miss some content. Take the GoMa as an example: they're planning on Maintaining the Fan-Ages, but once they're approved everyone will be able to visit those Ages.

Quote:

Just paying my monthly fee should be enough to allow me to participate in every aspect of the game. I’m thinking that maybe having to apply for a guild violates my rights as a player of this game. I also know that not everyone can write code, but that is not the point. A person should still be able to belong to a Guild of their choosing. If I can't write code, so what! I should still be able to be a member.

That's true, you could be able to make wonderful textures for the Ages. But if you don't have abilities for that Guild you can choose an other; or you can create a Group of people that shers your interests and abilities; there are so many groups in our community.

Quote:

Then all your little elitist guilds can stay alive somewhere in hyperspace.

Jishin is right when she sais you didn't read all the Thread. I suggest to you of read of the threads here. You can see that we want everyone in the Guild, we're just trying to understand in which Department your abilities are useful.

Quote:

Where and how did you come by this knowledge to place people and help teach them what they need to know?

We're just trying to do that. We expect some of the duties for the GoMa.
And we thought that who has experience in a certain Dept. (E.G. Testing content) could teach what he knows to someone who never did that, but want to learn.

And Jishin is really good in doing things like these; I've observed her (and the others of the GoMa forum) and I think I can say she's not vounting on the post above; I really think she's the experience to do that.


EDIT:written before reading semplerfi post here above

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"No one expects it to be a smooth ride, so let's all type twice and post once."-Zardoz
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are mine only and not Guild endorsed.

semplerfi wrote:

I am sorry Jishin. I was not very clear. I am not trying to put you on the defensive. I was curious about how you acquired your knowledge base. I will try again.

Where and how did you come by this Maintainers' knowledge to place people and help teach them what they need to know?

I would think that everyone would start out as a first-step apprentice in any guild.

I do not think you have elected your self. I see you as being very enthusiastic. Thank you for that.

semplerfi --

Actually, I agree with you that as a whole, people should start out on even footing.

If you've been over to the Maintainers forum on uruguilds.org/uruguilds you'll notice that there is lots of round robin and discussion on everything, and that pretty much everyone is on the same footing right now. Some of us are busier than others, but I don't think that makes us any further advanced, just perhaps with more immediate to-hand knowledge because we've been there a little longer and have been talking about these things together.

The placement form is for *if* and *when* we get to a time when there are people with greater amounts of expertise and people with lesser amounts of expertise.

As for where I have "come by this Maintainers knowledge" ... are you asking me if lo, Rand Miller descended from the heavens in front of me to impart his knowledge in the form of a burning book? Just kidding. What we are using as our knowledgebase -- and I do mean we, it's definitely a collective thing -- is the information from the flyer present in the game, and from as many logs with the DRC as we can, and from direct discussion with the ResEngs and also with some of the more active folks over at the soon-to-be Guild of Writers.

From there we are forming ideas of what the guild might be, and from those ideas, deriving further what future plans might need to include, like teaching people software-testing skills.

"Place" is not really the right term. Let's say Joe Maintainer wants to work on helping with taking Maintainer meeting logs and working on Age commentaries. In that case, we tell Joe Maintainer that boy, MustardJeep would really love his help, in case he didn't know that already, and to take a look at Andy Legate's previous work for the Guild of Inspectors, because we might be using some of that as a model for the Age commentaries. You get my drift? More just a matter of connecting people with the same ideas and interests.

Of course this is all in flux ... something may come up in the next episode that turns our expectations on their heads. It's happened before, I'm sure it'll happen again.

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Jishin's KI: 82165

Isn't this going to be the biggest misconception of the guild system....
Maybe we need a sticky post at the very top under Greydragons that states:

No one who wants to participate will get left behind!!! No special privileges have been given, no storyline has been missed, and no area's in the cavern are restricted. Right now we just have too many splinter groups eager to contribute at the same time and it will get harder and harder to sort it out as time goes on unless some of the leaders of these groups communicate among themselves and then to the explorers.

I have heard these comments both in and out of the cavern and that is why I started the thread about becoming a supporter of the "guild system". These questions are being asked more and more as the guilds try to figure out what they are really meant to do and can't they adequately answer these individual explorers concerns since they (the guilds) are still figuring out what they need to do. Without a structure in place we are helpless to answer these simple questions and make everyone feel they have a say... Apparently the DRC/Cyan is not going to step in and make this process any easier... We are stuck fending for ourselves and figuring out how to let every explorer see the benifits of this new process.

May I make the observation too that the GOG has a great system in place that focuses on one particular task and they have perfected their technique so they perform well. Unfortunately, we are now trying to umbrella a number of the splinter groups into a given structure and that is causing some of the distress...

It is up to the leaders that will emerge from the chaos, (and I'm hoping that will be soon), happening now to make sure all feel welcome.

@ Jishin, there are many beta and open beta testers here. I have not seen any mention of openly inviting those folks. Keeping NDA in mind of course. Just brain storming too.

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semplers' shards

*wry grin* I was an open beta tester too. I didn't think we needed to actually "invite" them specially? Of course they're wanted! (With that pesky NDA always in mind, of course. Ve know nothink! Nothink!)

I mean, it really is open to anyone who wants to be involved -- I was kind of figuring that people who wanted to be involved would speak up, come join the discussion, you know?

Just to add on to your thought -- perhaps some of the beta-testers would prefer to be in other guilds, or may already be in other guilds. Not that being in another guild would eliminate you from doing Maintainer stuff too, not at all! But maybe they just have different priorities, you know? I really don't know. We'd love to have any of them who want to be part of the group, that's for sure.

One of the things we have been discussing over on the other forum is the need to communicate a little better with everyone else. We've been doing better about it than we were early on, but there are still lots of things that need improvement. Obviously we really need to get out that we want people -- anyone who's interested. Beta-testers, newbies, anyone!

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Jishin's KI: 82165

GthG wrote:

I’ve read many threads on all these guilds. It seems like all of us must choose a guild to belong to. If we don’t, are we going go miss out on some content? Choosing a guild is done by merely wearing their T-shirt, but we’re only allowed to have one in our closet at a time. I guess if a person is “guildless”, then they will be left out; they won’t have certain accesses; their rights will be restricted.

That's never been said, by anyone.

GthG wrote:

I clicked on the “sticky” for the Maintainers Guild and was shocked! In order to belong to their guild, we must submit an application!? AN APPLICATION?? We must answer questions!? . . . we may or may not be accepted?! Something is very wrong here.

Like Jishin said we (I am also working with Jishin and numerous others on the Maintainers "pre-Guild") are not and will not excluded anyone. Everyone is welcome. The application (which we've already re-termed as "placement form" is to get an idea of what you're interested in. We don't want someone to get stuck doing something they hate. In fact, we already expect most people to float between groups.

GthG wrote:

Look, this is just a game! There should not be regiments established like this that will exclude players. We are all paying to play this game, now we have to have a skill or special ability, or a 2-inch thick resume to be a member of a guild. Reality and fantasy are being distorted.

Like I said above, there are no requirements to join. We are willing to teach anyone any skills that may become necessary for the Maintainers to function.

GthG wrote:

Just paying my monthly fee should be enough to allow me to participate in every aspect of the game. I’m thinking that maybe having to apply for a guild violates my rights as a player of this game. I also know that not everyone can write code, but that is not the point. A person should still be able to belong to a Guild of their choosing. If I can't write code, so what! I should still be able to be a member.

Like Jishin said, the first few posts have been greatly adjusted. I too was worried about a code writing requirement. But if you are really that worried about it, try learning. That's what I did; there are loads of tutorials on the internet and you can go at your own pace.

GthG wrote:

The sooner it is realized that by excluding people, people may no longer want to play this game. They may not renew their accounts. A lot of people joined GT just for Uru. If a lot of people quite Uru, and it seems GT doesn’t have enough money for Uru anyway, there may not be a Uru next year. Then all your little elitist guilds can stay alive somewhere in hyperspace.

Again, see above and what Jishin posted.

GthG wrote:

Just remember this is a game, and everything should be done “inside” the game. Do you get it? Inside the game! If all this stuff is done elsewhere, it isn’t a game anymore.

I'm sorry, that just isn't possible, or realistic. It is very difficult to communicate on a massive scale in the cavern. Forums are much easier.

GthG wrote:

I realize that Uru is a very unique game, but be careful how you play. Don’t carry things too far.

If you feel some hostility here, then you’ve gotten my message. There is something wrong with having to file an application, and then be approved, to play part of a game. (Remember, everything associated with Uru, be it meetings, guilds, writing code, etc. should be INSIDE the game, not on the outside.)

I will also be sending GameTap and Cyan similar letters.

Like Jishin said, you clearly didn't read very far into the Maintainers info before you decided to condemn the people trying to get it going. It sounds to me like you've been excluded from a lot in your life and for that I'm sorry. I can't speak for the other groups, but I know that the Ppre-Guild of Maintainers is very friendly and accepting of everyone, regardless of experience, skill, intelligence, etc.

Take a few deep breaths and try to believe me when I say that the Guilds are going to make Uru even better.

_________________
Frisky Badger
Guild of Maintainers
My opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the Guild of Maintainers.
KI# 00140468

Both sides should keep in mind that, for now, none of this matters. The current discussions are, at best, something Cyan will look over and consider. These will NOT be the guilds. All pre-<blank> groups will be destroyed by whatever form the guilds come in (what Cyan decides to be their structure).

I think (as neutral as I can be) that it is our responsibility to form groups and come up with guild structures that those in THAT group agree on and submit them to Cyan for possible inclusion. NOT to form groups saying "We're the Guild, go by our rules!" I have seen none do that yet.

I think it is foolish for people to call these groups elitist or insinuate they are un-inclusive or not representing a majority etc. I think it is pointless and purely destructive. If you disagree with a group's path, form your own and come up with your own structure to suggest. In the end, I'm not even sure that Cyan might not just ignore any fan-built structures and simply use a structure they like/is easiest to implement.

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-Whilyam

This just feels like all this is fragmenting the gamer population, forming minority special-interest groups that are self-sustaining and virtually closed.

That's not to say I'm not interested in working with the folks at the Guild of Ideas, I am. But, you know, I'm choosing not to invest anymore angst or worry until these Guilds are an official part of the game solution.

Perhaps our fictional characters should run the Guilds for their own storyline purposes, with us as their "workers."

I am impressed with all the experience and dedication around here. Lots of talent eager for expression. However it is all manifested, how can we lose?

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MOULa KI: 44556

Romer Openfield wrote:

TThat's not to say I'm not interested in working with the folks at the Guild of Ideas, I am. But, you know, I'm choosing not to invest anymore angst or worry until these Guilds are an official part of the game solution.

Except that Cyan has told us to take the lead and get the ball rolling. If we all sit back and wait for Cyan, nothing is going to happen.

_________________
Frisky Badger
Guild of Maintainers
My opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the Guild of Maintainers.
KI# 00140468