the chatlog between me and the moderator was me talking about an ideology about how the guild should be run which I personally have a problem with, I only ever name names in PMs however that name was used as the majority of the members of that organisation from my point of view tend to use that ideology. I also frequently vocalise my problems with that ideology so actually there was not much harm done and i do not expect any apologies from the moderator pertaining to them releasing a private conversation between us both as I don't see any harm done, as my views on that particular subject were vocalised by me publicly throughout the meeting. However no offence should be taken as It was not directed at any individual person merely an ideology taken up by many in the cavern but predominantly one taken up as I have seen by a certain group of individuals.

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The ending will never be written as long as the called remain to continue on the path of those who came before

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Also no one can claim that they do not speak at least partially with their organisations hat on.

Exactly. You can't escape CCN, Ruby. You took that part into the meeting with you.

Veralun, you (and Ruby) can't escape the fact that you belong to a body called CCN. Organisation / Group / Network, whatever - it's still a specific, bounded group of people.

What would be difficult / impossible in one of you representing CCN in its dealings with a larger umbrella organisation?

@ Rusty

Because we left a situation that tried to force us to speak with one voice. Why in the heaven's would we allow that to happen now? No, Rusty, with due respect, I am not CCN, like I am not only a Mrs. So and So, even though I've been married for years and years. My husband would never speak for me or I for him. I don't know how you work out your relationships, but that is the way it works best for us.

I am a person with my own voice. I do not share my opinions with Veralun, another producer at CCN. I share some with Veralun, but not likely more than with other explorers. I am not even sure Alty shares all of her opinions with Veralun. I have never asked him. I don't think its my business. I don't think its my business to ask him lots of things.

I do share some education and acumen with Veralun about technical matters. CCN is not a frat or club in the way you trying to make it.

You appear to want us to follow your instruction about how to be structured, and so far no one from the "network" is buying it.

Nope, I speak from my own convictions.

Do you share all your opinions with some other person? Do you always want to be represented by them? Why is the decision to be independent so difficult for you to understand?

Just because Sam says it, it doesn't mean its so.

Ruby
Ahvree

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Cavern Communications Network Twitter:CCNDownUnder - Borrowed from Mr. Lewis Carroll: What is the use of a book, without pictures or conversations? KI 379788, Twitter: Ruby_ODegee

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I speak only for myself, unless specifically noted otherwise.
Ich spreche nur für mich selbst - außer es folgt ausdrücklich ein entsprechender Hinweis.

That would be a good idea Ireen, because it might be getting in the way of something. Not sure what? But it could be.

Then again, I think it might be at the heart of some issues in the cavern we've talked about over the past 3 or 4 years.

Does a person have the right to be part of group, org, or whotamozoo, and still be their own person? Maybe the issue is this: If you are fortunate enough to be part of a group of kindred spirits, friends, known org or whotmozoo, are you still entitled to make your way through the cavern on your own? Or is that like getting to be two players with an unfair advantage? Could it be that some think that its bending the unwritten rules?

It will be an interesting guild discussion matter? It may have a great deal to do with culture. I am not sure what it bothers some explorers so much? But I gotta a feeling it will come up again and again and again.

R.

If the subject comes up again, a new thread will be started .

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Cavern Communications Network Twitter:CCNDownUnder - Borrowed from Mr. Lewis Carroll: What is the use of a book, without pictures or conversations? KI 379788, Twitter: Ruby_ODegee

Question - if I was to be in any guild, it would be in the Guild of Messengers. Is there a good place to post one's ideas? Sorry - I couldn't make it to the in-game meetings. I'd like to offer an opinion or two - don't know where's the best place to do that. I do like Ireen's categorization of the issues and views - it's a nice framework, a way to organize the ideas.

I have some comments on the meeting. I didn't know about the CCN issues. Generally,one thinks that members of an organization do have some ideas in common. It's a perfectly reasonal assumption. Often, if you are a member of a group, people think that you are a representative of that group, at a meeting. Explaining that CCN is different isn't going to make the confusion go away. If it's really important that you don't "represent" the group, you'll have to find a way to nicely say it, when the issue comes up, every time. I would never assume that anyone at a meeting knows the specifics of an organization I'm a member of.

Finally, on the names one uses, in game and on this forum - if you use one name here and one name in the game, or sometimes use your "real name" in private chats - people will get confused. The ony way to have people use the name you want is to be really strict about it - only use one name everywhere, in all communication. Otherwise, people will get confused, and will use the name you don't want them to use. It will always happen.

I don't use my "real" name on this forum, or in the game. It's not that I'm paranoid, I'm not. I established a public presence on the web. That public presence is - "mszv", the name I always use. In games, I tend to use some variation of "amarez", just because! But, you know, in personal conversations with people I know - people know my "real" name. So, sometimes my own name gets out into a public discourse. It's not my preference, but there you have it. The only way to keep people from using a name you don't want them to use is to always use one name.

I'd also encourage people not to enage in a private chat in a meeting, unless you don't mind it getting mixed in with the meeting log. It's so easy to accidentally do that. In a meeting during a public space, I think it's a good practice to act as if everything you say is going to be public.

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Retired forum mod, mszv, amarez in Uru (KI 89257), other online games
Blog - http://www.amarez.com, Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/amareze

Last edited by mszv on Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:20 pm; edited 2 times in total

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ô¿ô......All URU need is love!......ô¿ô

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Why is the decision to be independent so difficult for you to understand?

You aren't being independent in this context. You're being part of a guild.

I can't convince you, so I'll back off. I will be interested to see if the guild can successfully host both groups and individuals. It may well not be the only guild that has to.

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Finally, on the names one uses, in game and on this forum - if you use one name here and one name in the game, or sometimes use your "real name" in private chats - people will get confused. The ony way to have people use the name you want is to be really strict about it - only use one name everywhere, in all communication. Otherwise, people will get confused, and will use the name you don't want them to use. It will always happen.

Yes, I agree there. I was actually suprised to learn that THIS was the source of the scuffle at the meeting. Certainly the name used was one that I believeRuby used frequently in her TCT days, and was the one that most people there knew her by. I hope this misunderstanding has been resolved, especially seeing as how the name-er offored his apologies straight after the matter, and I certainly don't see it as a a spat between TCT and CCN, merely a misunderstanding between two individuals.

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If it's really important that you don't "represent" the group, you'll have to find a way to nicely say it, when the issue comes up, every time.

Maybe if each of the independent groups amongst CCN came to the table with their own publications and whatever clearly defined, it would indeed make it clearer. Though, I have to admit, I do to an extent agree with Rusty:

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Exactly. You can't escape CCN, Ruby. You took that part into the meeting with you.

Veralun, you (and Ruby) can't escape the fact that you belong to a body called CCN. Organisation / Group / Network, whatever - it's still a specific, bounded group of people.

What would be difficult / impossible in one of you representing CCN in its dealings with a larger umbrella organisation?

As I've mentioned before, The Archiver is an independent publication under TCT, in much the same way as you seem to describe CCN publications, with the difference seemingly being that The Archiver is happy to have a TCT representative represent it as well. I suppose it's a matter of personal convictions, as you say, but it is one that perhaps needs to be worked out.

Methinks I triggered the "one more mention = another thread" clause

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http://www.thecaverntoday.org/Archiver
The views expressed by me are my own, and do not represnt those of The Archiver, or TCT, unless explicitly stated as such.

MOUL KI: 13986530

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Ian A. Pertwee in Cavern - KI# 374362
Ahnotahm - Il quartiere
Not talking as a mod unless I say so

@ Narym:

My forum and cavern name is Ruby O'Degee. I also play the role of Madge, and Kria (who is a JOTC character). I was in cavern when the name was used, but the person has since apologized. I accepted same. It is no longer an issue Narym. I just think its good form to call ppl by their I/C in cavern name when they are in cavern or on the forum.

I would like to keep these names, unless I decide to add a character at some point. Thank you.

I did add a thread at the request of a poster. I really think not speaking for ourselves is something somebody made up. I am not sure who though? I never read this rule in any of the cavern literature, but somehow it is out there. I want to address the issue and dispel it, if possible.

It may not be possible, but I have no idea why and hence the thread.

EDIT - Oh and yes, I am a member of the African Violet Assocation, but they don't want me to speak for them either. I sometimes inadverently kill my plants (lack of water).

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Cavern Communications Network Twitter:CCNDownUnder - Borrowed from Mr. Lewis Carroll: What is the use of a book, without pictures or conversations? KI 379788, Twitter: Ruby_ODegee

This is why I think we need a united front. Have as many groups as agreed to dissolve and become the Guild. They would provide the EXACT same services, only they would do so from under one banner. Say TCT, CCN, and Uru Radio all merged into the Guild of Messengers. They all become members of one organization and publish their stories in their respective sections (i.e. Uru Radio might be part of the Guild's audio division where TCT and CCN podcasts would go, etc.). I don't think KI toons really is a messaging service. It's just a fun site, for me.

As I said in the meeting, look at the Writers. They are a hairsbreadth away from becoming an operational guild (not a pre-guild even. They're inclusive enough to be the actual guild now). Look at the Cartographers who are an official guild in all but name. Who need nothing from Cyan. They don't appear to be doing anything, but still. These are all united and they are more powerful because of it. And no one is above another.

A united front would remove the need to structure around the organizations. Yes, a large, like-minded group (though I doubt there is a large group who all think alike. Similar, but not alike) would be able to swing votes. However, it should be remembered that what I just described (what people seem so against) is majority rule.

Take this however you want. Reject it if you want. But keep in mind I'm an outsider. I have no stake in this. I will not benefit if orgs are retained and the pre-guild goes on with a representative-based council. Neither will I if the orgs are disbanded and the council is made up of you all together.

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-Whilyam

I really feel the whole organization thing has been blown out of proportion. As ireenquench pointed out, a person's affiliation is becoming more important than their ideas.

The way I see it, we are approaching the Guild backwards.

Instead of focusing on the needs the Guild should fulfill and figuring out the best way to accomplish that, we are starting with the solution (the structure) and trying to go backwards.

It seems like if everyone could take a deep breath, step back from their desired outcome, and focus on the puzzle itself - that we would have a better chance of working together as Dr. Watson suggests.

The first question, in my mind, is not "what should the GoM look like" - but "what needs should the GoM serve." Whether the GoM serves these needs through an umbrella guild and existing organizations, or whether, as Whilyam suggested, we follow the GoW and band together to start from scratch ... Decisions such as these have to be made from a desire to make the best GoM possible. It has become pretty clear (to me, at least) that personal investment (on both sides) is beginning to impede constructive conversation.

There are a lot of people who are interested in making the GoM succeed - passionate, intelligent people who have either put in years on the news circuit or have recently discovered this wonderful opportunity. And yet, the conversation has been rife with bickering, grudges, etc. And none of it has anything to do with the reason Cyan chose GoM as one of five "to be official" guilds.

I want to challenge the GoM community to start thinking globally. If, as Sam and others have pointed out, the GoM is going to be (whether we like it or not) most explorers' first stop for news, don't we have a responsibility to make it as accurate, fast, flexible, high-quality, versatile, and welcoming as possible? THAT should be our goal, and any structural decisions should come from a community wish to serve that goal.

I do believe that most of us have this wish in our hearts, but I would challenge you to ask yourself if that is your utmost goal. If personal investment in an organization, in dissolving organizations, in verbally besting an opponent - whatever it may be - is more important to you than the Guild being the best it can be, then we will not ever reach the pinnacle of cooperation and quality that Watson has asked of us.

In the future, I will do my best to speak and reason objectively, because I want the GoM to succeed. And I hope others will, as well.

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Shimmerillion | KI: 01204798 | GoMe Website

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ô¿ô......All URU need is love!......ô¿ô

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The first question, in my mind, is not "what should the GoM look like" - but "what needs should the GoM serve."

I agree completely.

Does the GoMe have a mission statement yet?