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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:08 pm 
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Marten wrote:
It is for the above reason that CCN has thus far resisted the proposal that they must have a single representative on the Guild of Messengers. Selecting a representative would require that the group figure out what their party line would be.
Succinct and brilliant as always.

Perhaps CCN can have a position depending? Assuming that they communicate with each other, there must be some issues where there is a common position. If so, someone represents them. If not, as many people as there are different views represents them.

How would CCN feel if there is an overarching council within the GoM and they exclude themselves? If there's ever a vote to set up such a thing and it goes against them, what would they do?

[At what point does resistance become futile?]


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:14 pm 
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This would be why I'd like to see the orgs meld together. With no "allegieance" to any group (regardless of whether that's happening now or not) there would be no way to steamroll discussions and the vote would be as close to a true majority vote as I think we can hope for.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:27 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
This would be why I'd like to see the orgs meld together. With no "allegieance" to any group (regardless of whether that's happening now or not) there would be no way to steamroll discussions and the vote would be as close to a true majority vote as I think we can hope for.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's even possible for the orgs to get along as they exist now.

On a separate note, Sam seemed to be (correct me if I'm wrong) worried about 1-man organizations like his getting steamrolled by larger organizations in a multiple vote situation. I would hope that the Guild leadership - again, whatever that might look like - could lay aside their partisanship long enough to look out for the whole Guild ... ask Cyan for a press release AND an interview, for example. Otherwise, they're leaders only in name.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:49 pm 
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Samsbase wrote:
You are also stating one of the strongest arguments FOR the formation of a council ...

I think the strongest reason for having one voting member from each of the organisations in the cavern is that in this case this bias can never develop as everyone is producing and giving information out in slightly different ways and therefore the full spectrum of opinions on any such issues can be seen and decisions made effectively.

On this point, I agree with you, though CCN sees things differently, and I can see their perspective as well, and I'm trying to explain it here because current discussions are not dissuading them. With a better understanding of why they feel how they feel, maybe that can change.

From CCN's perspective, everyone within CCN is already "producing and giving information out in slightly different ways". They already have a spectrum of opinions. From the CCN viewpoint, a single representative would reduce the diversity of contributions to the Guild of Messengers, rather than creating a more open environment for diversity.

My personal view: The representative system is not an undue burden on the creativity within CCN because it limits other organizations equally and is therefore the closest to "fair" we can get in a short time. Over at UruGuilds, I've already agreed that for the preGuild I'd be willing to see freelance Messengers such as myself represented by a single individual as well.

I and others have said before that the Guild needs to exist to serve the community, not the organizations. The representative system, while not perfect, does move us in that direction... by both limiting any one organization's power to influence the direction of the Guild, and by getting us off of this tired subject and back onto the topic of how we can meet the needs of others.

Oh, and to Whilyam's comment: While I still admire that suggestion, it's an unattainable utopia at this time. Right now, Sam and I both share a similar concern: Even if the organizations were disbanded, allegiances would still exist wherein certain groups might try to railroad a vote. The ultimate solution to that problem, I think, is to get more explorers involved in Messengers, to get more projects and organizations running and dilute the control of the legacy organizations. Then, and only then, could I see a disbanding as viable direction. And curiously enough, I think the model the Guild would need to adopt under such a situation would need to be much like the model CCN intended to form - a somewhat neutral top level organization with independently operating production companies leveraging the resources of all.

Addendum: As I said above, no plan is perfect. There are still details to be ironed out of a representative system. What do we do about organizations that claim to be independent, but are actually allied with a larger organization for the purposes of voting?

I'll put it this way: What would prevent the individuals within CCN from choosing to NOT include CCN on the representatives of the GoM, and then each person calling themself a one-man or one-woman organization, and asking for a representative slot?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:04 pm 
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Beep, beep, beeeeeep!

This is a test of the emergency Cavern Broadcast System (which I think would be a great thing for explorers to be able to broadcast to....)

We interrupt this discussion on what CCN should be, do, and say to bring you important information on what CCN actually is, does, and what members have to say.

What CCN actually is

What CCN actually has been doing over the past three weeks. This is some ... And this is some more ….

What CCN members actually have to say

We now return you to your regularly scheduled conclusions.

(I myself will continue to meet with others like I did last Sunday, a non-meeting at which not one person asked me what group I represented nor what group(s) I was even affilitated. It was a non-issue. Miraculously, we managed to accomplish our goal for the day, and without a single call for a vote! Amazing, really, since we're not supposed to have been able to accomplish anything without governance by a council...)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:30 pm 
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(That method works fine for small groups. It does not scale well to larger ones.

Furthermore, a representative system in the Guild of Messengers would not preclude smaller groups from continuing to organize their own meetings in their preferred way.)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:30 pm 
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Think of it as a question of scale, ghaelen. The guild of messagers wouldn't care how you (CCN) organised yourself or what you did on a day-to-day basis. A council is only going to have bearing on issues that affect the whole of the GoM, not any one specific component part.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:58 pm 
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I still disagree, and I think the reason is because of the direction the formation of this council came from.

Here's my thoughts on large scale communities:

I suspect that when Cyan decides what the various guilds will do they will make a space for a system of guidance -- experienced guild members helping/teaching those less experienced or less familiar with the tools, resources, each other, etc. To me that seems like a natural outgrowth of a large body of people who are interested in like-minded activities. In this case Cyan will decide what is like-minded by placing certain activities under the rubrics of messenging, writing, maintaining, etc. I have absolutely no problem with that.

I also suspect that those guides will not be representatives of organizations simply because organizations say they should be. I don't see organizations having anything to do with how those guides emerge from within guild membership. The guides will be individuals who have been demonstrating leadership, workmanship and an understanding of cooperation and collaboration. Maybe they have done this within an organization in the past, maybe not. There may even be a group of them eventually, perhaps a group that helps sub-groups facilitate information exchange. I have no problem with that either.

But the guides will not "run" the guild. Nor will they as a group make decisions or be the voting bodies. Guides, by nature, are not interested in ruling or voting, they are interested in guiding/helping/teaching. IMO the guild will generate it's own need for the type of guidance it requires and so will generate it's guides. So the guild can't really begin with any leadership in place. It would only be an artificial leadership imposed onto a community without a real sense of what that community needs yet. All any organization has right now is that organization's own structure and hierarchy (or not). What works for one organization might not work for another. Why begin with this as part of the picture?

The guild isn't anything right now except the people that want to populate it. It's not an organization, it's a brand new potential community. Forcing it to need a group of rulers at this point just doesn't make sense to me. It is this I have a problem with.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:10 am 
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"Hey, Earl! Lookit here! We got us a brand-new truck!"
"Yeah. Ain't she purty! And the custom paint. Hadda pay a lot extry for that."
"Nice, Earl. And the chickens like it too!"
"Speaking of chickens, you about ready to get 'em on down t'other side?"
"You bet. Let me just complete the inspection."
"Oh, don't worry, I had the Inspection Committee do that."
"If you don't mind, I'll just have a look mine own self."
"Go ahead, then. We'll be ready to roll when you finally get 'er done."
"OK... wheels, check. Tires... brakes. Trailer lights... doors... engine... oil... front wheels... headlights... air pressure OK.. hitch solid, connections good... Yeah, looks OK, Earl."
"All righty, then. Can we get this thing on the road?"
"But... Earl... don't it seem kinda quiet?"
"Quiet? Well, a course 'tis. I ain't lit 'er up yet."
"But, Earl... listen a minute, wontcha?"
"OK, yes, it's quiet. Now can we get outta here? We gotta scedjjul to keep."
"What's quiet mean, Earl?"
"Well, just means the load's all nice and tied.... wait a minute. You wanna open them doors?"
"Sure thing, Earl."
"Hey! Where's the chickens?"

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:37 am 
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ROTFL...../me thinks Lord Chaos is a Jenius.........../me nominates him for a Noble Prise..............

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:45 am 
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Maybe Dudemom, but me still thinks Lord Chaos is still running for something, or wait - from something.

Yes, that is what it is. He is running from something. And now we know its charts and chickens :D .

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:23 pm 
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Forcing it to need a group of rulers at this point just doesn't make sense to me. It is this I have a problem with.
The guild of messagers doesn't need rulers. It's not a governing body but a co-ordinating one, maximising the efficiency of the dissemination of information, having a view of all message media, making sure that everyone is informed in an accurate, timely, unbiased manner by whatever means.

ghaelen, if I understand you correctly, your root objection is that you see the GoM as telling CCN what to do, if CCN participates. It's not the job of the GoM to tell anyone what to do.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:37 pm 
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I concur with Rusty.

However, I've given up arguing with those who feel a council is a necessary first step. Nevermind that it is far too early in the process to cast votes on anything, and the only example anyone has given for what we might vote for has been how to expel someone from the Guild... an example that, in my mind, demonstrates a curious sense of priorities.

But, let them organize, I figure. I can go with that, if it clears the table so some real discussion can take place.

PS: Rusty, can I quote you on this in the future?
Rusty_Russell wrote:
It's not the job of the GoM to tell anyone what to do.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:59 pm 
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Sure! Rusty says? Am I the new Simon? ;) :)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:13 pm 
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Sorry, I am going to jump right in here and then right back out, (I promise!)

But, what is it that you all think you need to vote about. What governing party among you needs to vote about what issues exactly? Maybe if you step back and really examine where you will need to cooperate then you can better figure out the structure you will need. Many of you are successful entities that have stood on your own for a long time and will continue to do so with or without a guild!

You all, need to find exactly where you can benefit and assist each other and "only then" decide what restrictions or benifits will arise from pooling your resources together.

I imagine that being able to add a tag line to each and every one of your separate interests - Member of the Guild of Messengers- will be a coveted honor. That is all. Anything else, how you run your own division could and should be left up to those who have already been doing a wonderful job without an overseeing body.

OK, all done- I'm outta here.....

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