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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:06 am 
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* A council built only of legacy messaging groups is the fairest way to build it. Apparently, "fair" meant that anyone new to the game loses their opportunity to participate unless they join an existing organization.


As far as I can recall, that was the initial idea for the council, in the preliminary stages, to start broadcasting the GoMe, and start the foundations of some sort of structure, which would then be done away with once enough people had joined and we had some idea of where we were going. New people were never going to be excluded from the process. I also think the intention was to have the groups not have monopolising powers, and balance them with individuals, and that this was going to be worked, but we haven;t really gotten very far on that mark, as we've gotten steadily diverged towards other points of contention ;)


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A council will give us the ability to discipline members from the guild who break the rules... except that we don't yet know of any mechanisms that we'll have to discipline anyone. We can't even boot troublemakers out of neighborhoods once they are members!


I think that was coming from the perspective of Out of cavern news distribution. I agree that it would be difficult to do so in cavern in the same way as out of cavern. And Also I think it was looking to the future. Remember, many of the pre-guilds are looking to establish a system that Cyan/DRC may decide to implement to some extent in the future.

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A code of conduct will solve the potential for abuse of mythical tools that we don't have - except that it cannot actually prevent abuse, it would only give us an excuse to say "But we told you not to do that." Remember, we have no power or enforcement capability. And while I think a Code of Conduct isn't a bad idea, I'm strongly opposed to it being bandied about as some sort of behavioral panacea.


Well, if that last line was your only concern, then why are we arguing? Again, I think that the answer to the last statement is somewhat applicable here, with the addition that a CoC was mainly intended simply to have in black & white some sort of guidelines, so that everyone was on the same page, and there was no confusion as to what would be considered acceptable (ironic, no? :P)

That little piece of confusion was worth about a page of arguing :o

:shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:02 am 
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Hope you all figure this out soon...

I still think the main issue is you don't know who all is going to belong to this "pre-guild", real "guild" or just group of Messengers. (and by the way- what is this "pre guild" stuff? Cyan gave you all "Guild Pubs"- treat yourselves as what you will be! or are you afraid they are going to come back at you and say naa.. we changed our minds- no guilds? That would be a very nasty trick. Just because you aren't sure of everything you are going to do- does not mean you cannot start bonding- gosh, just stand up for yourselves.)

Anyways, gather "everyone" together- not just separate organizational heads- they will not be the only "members"- you all will. And make the decision on what "categories" of news organizations will be included under the umbrella of the Guild of Messengers. Temporarily finalize that decision and leave open the option of other organizations joining in later. I don't think any new corporations will be cropping up today or tomorrow...

Let "everyone" whether they are a single individual in an organization or 20 strong have a full vote for now on the basic issues of how to start. Value each of your "group" members opinions for the time being. Then have the blanket votes on whether you need a COD or Mission Statement right now. And live with the results. Answer simple questions and you may feel better once you function as a group no matter which side you were on.

This debate you are having now- will never end if you don't make up your mind to just do something- anything. You all have valid points but they will be the same valid points in a month or two months. You are not reaching any conclusions as long as you continue to debate.

Frankly, you are only getting more upset with each other because no one is changing their mind. And they may never change it. But someone needs to call an end to the debating and start to move into action. If only to stop any more hard feelings and tension. You are all going to have to continue to see each other- guild or not. And some of these cracks will be even harder to smooth over if they get any wider.

I move you all call a meeting of everyone intending on becoming a part of the GOMe and vote yes or no on whether you need a COD and Mission statement! Do I hear a second? :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:48 am 
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Jenine wrote:
I move you all call a meeting of everyone intending on becoming a part of the GOMe and vote yes or no on whether you need a COD and Mission statement! Do I hear a second? :wink:


With due respect I am not sure why the rush? I believe the "debate" as you call it has been worthwhile. It certainly brought in some light @/to the issue of whether the GOM would be best organized by a pre-council, council or something else. The "debate" is also discussing the importance of voting or not. At this point some of the steps forward, which include education and tools (we already have) use were creatively talked about a non-meeting last weekend (more of a gathering).

Why is it so important to move on to voting, before we know who is voting and for what reasons? Isn't this the time the GOM is supposed to be working out the details and publicizing the fact that the group is open to explorers of any kind and ilk?

Once the eddy ball gets rolling, it generally does not take long to start hashing out the working structure. Didn't Cyan say this could take months? What's the rush, and where is the fire? I thoroughly enjoyed meeting all those folks during the last two meetings. I think meeting everyone is a great start. :D Learning something from the explorers I met was even better. Would not educating ourselves be a good start, before we vote on whether we need something we may not need?

Ruby
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EDIT - You know it is going to take a little bit of time to undo what got out there as publicity about a guild organizing themselves with only a few people at the helm of the GOM. And are those people willing to let go of their helm holding? I am not sure I am seeing that yet. I still see some persons holding on pretty tight.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:03 pm 
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While we are all debating these important issues, I would like to address one of the original elements of this thread.

We are some of us a part of an organization, but we are all individuals. We all have general as well as specific interests and I know every person here has skills they've already demonstrated that would be valuable for the Guild of Messengers.

With that in mind, I would like to invite you all to post a short piece of information about yourselves and which of those skills you would like to contribute in the People Resources List thread. There is no pressure to teach, since teaching takes a great deal of additional time. But anyone in the Guild will bring something with them in the form of knowledge, skills, interests. And we all know that whatever else the Guild of Messengers will consist of, it will definately consist of people.

Showing others of like mind who we are and what interests and skills we have to bring to the table as individuals can't hurt anyone, and might, in fact, become quite mutually beneficial.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:18 pm 
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Tweek,

While reading through this thread, I was rather disturbed by a comment made by you:

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nstead of discussing seemingly endlessly about a council for the Guild, wouldn't setting the Guild up itself be more important here?

I've been interested in watching the Writers, in the time that council discussions have been taking place the GoW plans have popped up asking people for thoughts on membership, structure, website etc. They have a good sense of a Guild structure.

Why is it so hard for the GoMess and Maintainers to follow a similar suit and just get it done?


If you could, please take a look over at the Guild of Maintainer's forum over at uruguilds.org (the Assembly Of Guilds).
If you read through the threads there, you will see that we ARE doing just like the GoW. Anyone and everyone is encouraged to offer ideas, opinions, arguments, solutions there. No one is is declaring themselves always right, and that their idea is the only one that will work. We have healthy discussions over there about everything. We even encourage those that are not a support of Maintainers, but just John Q. Explorer to give us their opinion and thoughts on things!

I'm curious to know why you thought the Maintainers were having a hard time getting things done? When, actually, we've hammered out a LOT of issues and ideas already.

Many of us working over there have looked at threads like these about the GoMe and have thoughts ranging from "Boy. Glad we're not them." to "Wow. Wish we could do something to help them over there, but afraid to say something and get my face bit off!"

I sure hope you guys can figure things out as I see the Messengers being not an important guild, but a VITAL one! I can't imagine having any guilds at all without a Messengers guild!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:34 pm 
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Lol, I think we are back to the herding cats thing......(The Dude just fell off the computer table laughing over that one.....if cats can laugh....) When you get this many creative people together it is probably inevitable that these types of discussions are going to arise. But out of that, we are seeing some going from talking to doing.....The Job/Career Fair, KI Mail, People Resources (thanks, ghaelen!) These are all things to build upon... I am less concerned about structure than the things I have heard from people like Ireen and Thend where we have to figure out how to cooperate and figure out what we have available to provide to our "consumers" In-Cavern and otherwise. What do they want and how do we get it to them....Figuring out our resources and how to accomplish our goals together with all our varied talents, I think a loose "structure," if you will, should arise naturally from this. That doesn't necessarily mean a heirarchy or certain people in charge, it means levels of cooperation to achieve goals by people naturally rising to tasks. Anyone who cares to give their time and participate is welcome.

Once we are given the actual structure and guidelines then we can cooperatively decide to act. But for now, considering the varied types of things we do, building the trust and the cooperation and getting out the wonderful things that are being created here to people who might not know where to go to see or hear broadcasts, newsletters, information, etc is more important. Without that, I think a guild is totally meaningless.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:01 pm 
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Was only thinking that if you could agree you needed either of those things you could then move on to the next... thing. They are a fundamental issue among most of you, (look at the number of forum postings about these issues), and at some point- next week or next month you will have to make a choice as a collective group.

You have the option of continuing the debate. Which may be great fun while we wait for the next episode- and then you may want to continue it long after the last episode plays out just for something to do - or you could lay down some simple guidelines for the "whenever future" of the guild that you wish to participate in.

Just remember- some are discussing more intensely than others and if these types of discussions go on for a really long time- you will have cracks that cannot be smoothed over. And over time those cracks creep into others until the whole foundation becomes weaker. And that will be a real shame.... Not the foundation I think you are looking for.

Besides, if by chance you would vote you do not need the COC or a mission statement- does that mean you can not pick these up and revisit them at a later date? No. You could choose to come back to these issues with a vote any time in the future.

I am not "rushing" you into anything- just think moving on may be more productive.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:44 pm 
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I kind of find this funny at this point so much arguing that it seems that some just enjoy it for arguing's sake ha. The reason I support us having a CoC before the guild is running is because of what its for its not to punish its job is to prevent it give people an idea of what should and should not be done. Also I'm not trying to get it right this minuet I just want it some time before the GoM opens its doors. Yes it will not stop all issues and no its not going to be perfect but it will help.

Now as for the act of what the guild should be doing thats always been obvious to me thats why I haven't worried over it. Simply put the Guild should be trying to get the news from and to as many outlets as possible as quickly as possible. Whether that be in-cavern or out of cavern in text or audio or video. It just seems too simple why the debate if you do that you have your bases covered anything else is just gravy. Yes we should find out which areas to focus on first from the explorer population but once again that seems an obvious action. So I ask whats the debate on that over, if we are doing that then we are doing our job the details of doing rely on some of the more technical issues of the guild.

In the end I hope we are all working for a system that achieves good for the cavern, I know I am. I some times wonder about others but I have faith that my wonderings are wrong and that they are too. So in the end the debate to me comes down to how best do we achieve a good system.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:52 pm 
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Anthony wrote:
So in the end the debate to me comes down to how best do we achieve a good system.


This is indeed the crux of the matter, and it seems to balance between two groups - those who want to copy a system they've used elsewhere successfully, and those who want to design something from scratch because they're not sure the copied system is entirely right for this Guild.

I am in the second of those two groups.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:14 pm 
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Jenine wrote:
Just remember- some are discussing more intensely than others and if these types of discussions go on for a really long time- you will have cracks that cannot be smoothed over.


Cracks or fissures? For some reason I still have great faith when the time comes our discussion here may keep us from falling in or over ourselves /ROTFL :shock: . I know there are some goneby times when I needed to ask just a few more questions at the getgo.

Ruby

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:15 pm 
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Anthony wrote:
It [that is, the CoC] gives people an idea of what should and should not be done.

Not speaking for anyone but myself, here are the questions that I have about this statement:
  • Who are the "people" this statement mentions? Because there is no Guild, they cannot be Guild members, so who does that leave?
  • Who will adopt this Code and how will it be adopted?
  • Who will enforce this Code and how will it be enforced? Or would it merely be a list of suggestions?
Quite frankly, at this stage, I don't see any reason to stop any group from writing and adopting a Code of Conduct, as long as they acknowledge that the Code will apply only to themselves. So I say, Go for it. (Zardoz ducks the rotten tomatoes thrown at him by Marten . . . .)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:44 pm 
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andylegate wrote:
Tweek,

While reading through this thread, I was rather disturbed by a comment made by you:

Quote:
nstead of discussing seemingly endlessly about a council for the Guild, wouldn't setting the Guild up itself be more important here?

I've been interested in watching the Writers, in the time that council discussions have been taking place the GoW plans have popped up asking people for thoughts on membership, structure, website etc. They have a good sense of a Guild structure.

Why is it so hard for the GoMess and Maintainers to follow a similar suit and just get it done?


If you could, please take a look over at the Guild of Maintainer's forum over at uruguilds.org (the Assembly Of Guilds).
If you read through the threads there, you will see that we ARE doing just like the GoW. Anyone and everyone is encouraged to offer ideas, opinions, arguments, solutions there. No one is is declaring themselves always right, and that their idea is the only one that will work. We have healthy discussions over there about everything. We even encourage those that are not a support of Maintainers, but just John Q. Explorer to give us their opinion and thoughts on things!

I'm curious to know why you thought the Maintainers were having a hard time getting things done? When, actually, we've hammered out a LOT of issues and ideas already.

Many of us working over there have looked at threads like these about the GoMe and have thoughts ranging from "Boy. Glad we're not them." to "Wow. Wish we could do something to help them over there, but afraid to say something and get my face bit off!"

I sure hope you guys can figure things out as I see the Messengers being not an important guild, but a VITAL one! I can't imagine having any guilds at all without a Messengers guild!


Sorry, my bad. Due to the few comments I heard, the lack of Maintainer stuff on this forum I saw that as things were having issues. I'm afraid I don't visit the UruGuild forums and do not plan to visit those forums.

Nice to hear the Maintainers are working out ok.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:20 pm 
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I think that before anyone starts thinking up a GoM Code of Conduct, attention should first be given to a Guild Charter. Such a charter would state the overall purpose of the guild, and all members -- whatever organization they happen to be affiliated with -- would steer their efforts toward fulfilling that charter.

A Code of Conduct would only come into play if someone failed to honor, or somehow violated, the charter. Think of it as a constitution, really. We all seem to be heading different directions, and a wiser man than I once said that "a house divided against itself cannot stand."

The classical guild system involved the induction of young trainees who were then groomed to fulfill the ideals of their guild. They entered as green newbies, and were trained and coached by their seniors, thus attaining a commonality between all members, based on a mutual pledge of allegiance to their guild's charter. Things are a bit different in this case, since we have several groups who have already proven their abilities. It's sort of like a group of mini-guilds, and we're talking of an attempt to meld them into one, all while mainting their original group identities.

That doesn't sound like a "guild" to me; more like an alliance. Can we really come up with and agree on a GoM charter that represents the common goals of all the groups involved? I'm not sure even Atrus could write something like that... ;)

My suggestion is to first discuss a charter that would state our common goals, and then we could make the effort to align the different groups with that charter, and if needed, write a Code of Conduct later. We need to define our purpose first, before we can decide what constitutes a violation of that purpose.

Mowog

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:25 pm 
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Things are a bit different in this case, since we have several groups who have already proven their abilities. It's sort of like a group of mini-guilds, and we're talking of an attempt to meld them into one, all while mainting their original group identities.

That doesn't sound like a "guild" to me; more like an alliance.
That's exactly where I'm coming from, but the alliance bears the name of a guild. I don't want the GoMe to subsume or replace existing organisations, merely embrace all of them.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:00 pm 
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Dudemom_2000 wrote:
But out of that, we are seeing some going from talking to doing.....The Job/Career Fair, KI Mail, People Resources (thanks, ghaelen!) These are all things to build upon...

Figuring out our resources and how to accomplish our goals together with all our varied talents, I think a loose "structure," if you will, should arise naturally from this. That doesn't necessarily mean a heirarchy or certain people in charge, it means levels of cooperation to achieve goals by people naturally rising to tasks. Anyone who cares to give their time and participate is welcome.



Although some people may feel like the pace of the GoMe is too slow(or that we are "behind" other guilds), I must say that I see a big improvement between this month and last month. The GoMe is such a complex Guild with a lot of different people involved and they must all come to the table to talk before actually building the Guild. I feel that last month, trying to immediately start the council in order to have a rapid growth(which is a good thing), not all GoMe supporters were included and that is why the process stalled due to a division in the community. However, I'm very optimistic that soon we will all agree on the basic things about the GoMe, start to build upon it and the leaders will arise naturally. The strength of the D'ni was to not Guilds but its people and I truly beleive that the "yellow shirts" are tremendously talented and good people working all for the benefit of the GoMe and the cavern.

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