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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:34 am 
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So, I was thinking again... big surprise there huh? Well then- lock me out of my Delin... favorite place to think :wink:

But what about a simple thing like having members of a guild agreeing to do 2 hours of community service every other month in order to maintain membership. And before you yell at me- think about it...

Everyone has a specialty they are bringing to the table. If you are an age writer- you could give a short talk about programming. If you are a relayer- you could demonstrate how the system works. If you are a maintainer- you could talk about how game age inspections are done or what equipment you use. The Cartographers could take explorers on field trips and explain how they measure the ages. The Messengers that publish video or podcasts or write for publications could also talk about those. Set these discussions up in the guild pubs. These little talks could be OOC or IC depending on the subject and would let anyone not participating in the guild know what exactly what goes on and continue to involve the public at large. Besides you have great imagers for showing charts and photos and KI mail text notes- and lots of room for a crowd. Each individual guild member wouldn't have to do it- but maybe each of the inner organization would like to contribute as a whole on a regular basis. The greeters do this kind of thing every day- they are the ultimate community service!

So the benifits would be - involving the public at large so they can see what the guilds are doing and how. Would help the public feel included. Maybe get an explorer about thinking how they could contribute and donate their time too. Many of you have outside the cavern interests and something interesting to share. Would give us something new to do "in the cavern"- guild related. And would give the guilds a little satisfaction that they are giving back to those who "support" them.

Sorry to keep using the messengers- but this would be a simple, not very demanding way to qualify for membership. Huh???? Let your separate organizations, each group as a whole so no one person has to do it all, donate this small time to giving a talk, lecture, radio show or skit or whatever, just as this donation- above what you already do- once every other month just to educate the community about what you do. Eliminates dues, favoritism, lots of rules and gives back to the community...

Only 12 hours a year... not much right? I have spent that much time making forum posts. Imagine how productive I would be if I would leave the forums and go get some work done...


(goes back to the Delin mumbling things to herself .... gotta think of more ideas... one will surely catch someones eyes...)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:26 am 
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It sounds nice. But I would predict that such a requirement would not motivate a single person to contribute service. It would only drive people away. (*Including* some people who would otherwise be contributing on their own.)

Frankly, it would drive me away.

(If the Guilds are constituted in a sane way, then being active in a Guild will *be the same thing* as doing service work. Because the Guild goals are about helping Uru and its players, right? But you can't require players to be active, because everybody has time constraints.)

If you want to achieve this effect positively -- don't ask people to do work. Instead, *recognize* people for what they *are* doing. Post a list of who (in your opinion) is contributing to the community. Have little blurbs and interviews. Give out gold stars. :)

That way, even if someone hates the idea, they can just ignore you. They won't feel like they're being forced to jump through hoops in order to get permission to draw a map or build a Blender model.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:13 am 
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Nice spin Belford. Kinda like being employee of the month.

Yeah Jenine, I also feel like a requirement, even if it's just 2h per month is not the best way to motivate the troops. Not every one will want to do that(let's say shy or very busy people). The best thing you can do is encourage those willing to give time to continue to do so.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:40 am 
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What you do to qualify to belong in a guild may already be perceived as a community service to you and your friends- but may be looked at differently by the explorer community at large! Guilds will have to foster a relationship with the larger community or you will hear very loud cries of injustice and foul play! They have already begun crept into the conversations here and there. And I understand that there will always be some that choose to complain no matter what - but the guilds will not get any brownie points if they do not offer some special time to the community.

I did not propose that we give you a mountain of work to do on top of your current projects. It may be as simple as spending a little time making forum posts on behalf of your guild, or updating a website, standing in your guild pub for 15 minutes once a week to answer questions. Not necessarily- give an hour long talk. You are already creative- I'm sure you could come up with an idea.

Belonging to a guild should not just mean prestige- but also the humility to give back to those who admire and "support" what you do. Societies and big businesses have found that when they offer services to the community that it benifits both the giver and the recipient. Some schools are now requiring their student to do a certain amount of public service in order to graduate and surprisingly the students end up enjoying it.

If you want Uru to continue - there must be ways to encourage new explorers to join in. If they happen to come in and find there will be no way for them to participate or that the guilds are in some way too exclusive - then they will leave. By offering your time as an esteemed member of the guild community - you would be making a huge statement about cavern society. We need to involve as many as possible or they will just continue to pack up and go home. Some more quietly than others.

I'm sorry you feel it would be an imposition for us to ask you to share what you know. But if in this is going to work- both the eventual guild members and the explorers are going to have to get to know each other better or after a little time we will have an explorer version of the bahro wars.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:44 am 
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Andros wrote:
Nice spin Belford. Kinda like being employee of the month.


I always thought it would be cool if some of the ranks in a Guild were recognition-based, i.e. you are a Guild Captain in the Guild of Writers because you have written a number of popular ages, or one in the Guild of Greeters because you do twice as many greeter shifts as the average member or such.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:33 am 
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"What you do to qualify to belong in a guild may already be perceived as a community service to you and your friends- but may be looked at differently by the explorer community at large!"

If the Guilds' primary activities serve the community, there is no problem to solve.

If they *don't*, then the Guilds will be ignored by the community, fade, and vanish. Your proposal doesn't solve that problem. Really, the problem solves itself. If some Guild isn't doing anything to benefit people, surely it's up to them to change course.

"Belonging to a guild should not just mean prestige..."

I believe I see your mistake. Belonging to a Guild should not mean prestige *at all*. If Guild membership is a shiny pin to be awarded to the deserving -- and kept away from the undeserving -- then the Guilds have already failed.

Prestige comes from people appreciating what you do. There isn't another source.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:11 am 
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It may seem quixotic that I am arguing against a service requirement, when my whole position is that the Guilds can only succeed by serving the community. Let me rephrase: everything you are proposing should *already be the primary activity of the Guilds*. But you can't get people involved in those activities by posting barriers to entry!

I want to see Guilds form *as* a means to serve the community. (This is why I argued, for example, that the goal of the Writers should be "To help players create Ages.")

If this works right, then everything the Guild does will *be* community service. And it's silly to put a service requirement on service. Someone who wants to join the Greeters *already wants to help newcomers* -- there isn't any other point to joining, right?

If a Guild gets off-track -- goes off down some path that doesn't benefit anybody but themselves -- then fix the Guild! Don't validate their selfishness by giving them brownie points. Suggest better goals and activities *for* the Guild. If they don't pitch in, other players will...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:19 pm 
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Yes, belford, you are clearly right-minded in all you say. How some explorers see these Guilds as exclusive or prestigious is destructive to the spirit of the game.

I too see the Guilds as a way to pool and organize explorer talents and resources to help the game improve and move forward in ways the explorers would like to see. Not as a new level in a URU caste system.

I'd love to drop into a Guild and receive help with a graphic, or find a direction for an idea, or hand off a news item for distribution, or submit a joke for broadcast, or be pointed to some helpful software. The services are as endless as the experience of our Guilders. This can elevate the game.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:07 pm 
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I agree with Belford, and I can see Janine's point, too. I think, perhaps, she was looking at service outside the Guild you are in?

I like Blade's idea of special-service oriented recognition. Hmmm. You know, in the SCA the various Shires and Baronies often have an award that is given for above and beyond service. How about something simillarly run?

Golden Linking Book Service Award
Given approximately every 6 months on
First Feast of the Maker - Leenovoo 10, March 27
and
The Day of Dancing - Leetar 21, September 3
for exceptional, above and beyond service to Uru and the Community.

2 months before the award date, email nominations would be taken for 1 week. Emails would include the nominees Name, KI #, and a description of the work they have done to deserve the nomination.

Those emails would then be examined by community leaders from throughout the Uru community (The Community Leaders group on UO would be an approprate set of people, it is already established, and it is a good representative cross-section of the community) who would narrow it down to 2-5 candidates.

Ideally, those nominations would get sent up to Cyan, and they would choose one, but in the absence of that, I think a community vote here on MOUL would be best.

We'd have to come up with some sort of recognition for them, A banner for their sig, for sure... in game it would be nice to have a KImail go out from the DRC, or a special Tshirt, or a plaque in the City that names got added to.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:46 pm 
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Belford- I am not disputing your stance, just the way you are defending it. By the way- you are the one that brought up "gold stars".

In a Utopian society it would be perfectly acceptable to assume that everyone is sharing and working peacefully along side the other. But, the cavern society is no different than any other we have seen, (except it may be friendlier)- in the present or in the past. There are those who toil hard to contribute and share, those who lead, by action or voice, while others are content to sit back and watch. And then there are those very loud voices that come around every once and a while to proclaim that any "guild structure" is a political force and should be brought to it's knees- whether the reality of this opinion is true or not.

I think you are absolutely correct that the guilds should already consider their collective work as a generous community service, especially since we will not be paying extra for their goods and services. But any opinion, even if offered open and honestly, will always be subject to the receiving individual's perception of the direct statement of intent. And may not even be the opinion of all guild members involved. There will be very little you will be able to do to quiet or confront those voices other than by your actions. But - that is for another discussion.

It is not too much to expect the guilds intentions to be stated clearly with direct words or actions. Quite frankly, if these guilds are too succeed and function in some sort of democratic way- leading the community at large by example- (and you are all leading by inspiration and your willingness to contribute to the guilds)- you must also realize the enormous responsibility you will have in educating, cultivating, and sharing with the rest of us who have not yet realized or achieved our full potential. There would be no better way to do this than to extend a friendly hand to those of us who are watching you gather your ideas and discussions, and clearly demonstrate your willingness to offer just a little bit more, and let us have a reason to continue to support those we greatly admire. Remember there is always a fine line between admiration and jealousy. One can be very productive- while the other can be devastating.

What would be wrong with the guild of your choice- to expect you to donate a little time on the guilds behalf in return for the pleasure of being part of the group. You will have to stop thinking of yourself or your smaller group as the only unit you are passionately involved in. If not the guild structure as a whole is not really a "guild" but just a meeting place for a bunch of explorers. You will have to be willing to donate your time to furthering the inner guild community, as well as, what you will be offering the public. If not- you might as well stay an individual unit and not become involved as an official guild member.

Edit to add- You know, any guilds that form will always have those who spend more time working on guild tasks than others- due to time constrains or ability- but it would not be out of the question for them to expect you to donate a required and reasonable amount of time on their behalf in return for aknowlegment as part of the guild. I can only hope that some of this donated time will be reaching out to the rest of the explorer community and continue to make it grow.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:28 am 
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(It is true, I brought up "gold stars" as both a good and bad mechanism... sorry.)

You asked: "What would be wrong with the guild of your choice- to expect you to donate a little time on the guilds behalf in return for the pleasure of being part of the group."

My feelings, in brief: (I don't want to drag this out endlessly)

I think it is not the guild's place to have expectations of me. Rather, *I* should have expectations of the *guild* -- and of my fellow guild members. (And I do!)

And the reason I care about this distinction, is that a guild policy is (by definition) authoritarian. Someone must choose the policy, and then someone must enforce it.

But I don't *want* my expectations to have the force of authority. (Nor, obviously, do I want *your* expectations to have that force.) It is simply how I feel about you, and about player X, and player Y, and so on. You *also* have expectations of me, and of player X, and player Y. So does player X. And we all have expectations of ourselves, as well; which will do more to motivate us than any outside influence.

I would much rather see those expectations -- that is, the definition of "prestige" and "respect" -- arise from everyone's individual beliefs. Because we're *certain* to disagree on some details, and agree on others.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:20 am 
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I will behave and not drag this out. But please remember there are those of us that "are" willing to support you and I already am. We may not be your best buddies in the cavern - but we will appreciate what you do! Just don't want to be left out of all the fun and you may have to show us how we can join in. We were busy learning other stuff while you were perfecting the skills you will use to contribute to the guild of your choice.

Edit to add- Sorry I can't help it sometimes but one other thing caught my eye in belfords last post :
Quote:
"I think it is not the guild's place to have expectations of me. Rather, *I* should have expectations of the *guild* -- and of my fellow guild members. (And I do!)"


But if you are a member- you are the guild? What are they supposed to do for you? If you are working together as a group- where did you get the expectations from? I really don't understand...

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