Oh look, a fight...

For my two cents (pun not intended), I don't believe the D'ni had a coin-based monetary system or rather, if they did, it didn't function as surface cultures' do. The reason I believe this is because, back in D'mala, a Cyan employee (might have been Chogon or maybe Moke) was asked a question about whether the then-new Uru Live would see the birth of a D'ni monetary system and economy. While I don't remember his exact words, I believe Chogon/Moke said that they weren't going to implement anything when Uru Live opened, however if they ever did do something like that, Cyan would rather make an economy that was different from the usual MMO economic model (gold, kredits, or whatever).

I think a unique Uru economy might be interesting, and could allow the game to open up the potential to add a manufacturing and selling portion to Uru. While I know that's not everyone's cup of tea, I wouldn't mind it myself as long as it wasn't required to do something critical (as in requiring you to manufacture a book before you can get your Age approved would be a no-no).

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-Whilyam

Whilyam wrote:

Oh look, a fight...

For my two cents (pun not intended), I don't believe the D'ni had a coin-based monetary system or rather, if they did, it didn't function as surface cultures' do. The reason I believe this is because, back in D'mala, a Cyan employee (might have been Chogon or maybe Moke) was asked a question about whether the then-new Uru Live would see the birth of a D'ni monetary system and economy. While I don't remember his exact words, I believe Chogon/Moke said that they weren't going to implement anything when Uru Live opened, however if they ever did do something like that, Cyan would rather make an economy that was different from the usual MMO economic model (gold, kredits, or whatever).

I think a unique Uru economy might be interesting, and could allow the game to open up the potential to add a manufacturing and selling portion to Uru. While I know that's not everyone's cup of tea, I wouldn't mind it myself as long as it wasn't required to do something critical (as in requiring you to manufacture a book before you can get your Age approved would be a no-no).

Diverting somewhat from the original purpose of this topic...

I don't think there is too much stuff to be "manufactured" or "sold" in Uru. We're a bunch of explorers - why would we be using some ancient currency to make our own market down there (and can anyone say IRS issues? )?

An interesting thing, perhaps, would be a sort of rewards system. The DRC or whatever head organization exists could place bunches of special markers (like in To D'ni, except with something special to distinguish them) in places that were "approved exploration areas" or they could give them out at meetings, etc. People could then exchange these for rewards (clothing, small items for Relto, etc.). This would balance out Relto pages somewhat (although you could gather both simultaneously, it does allow some reward for people trying to be more against Yeesha) but with a totally different method, and would give some reason to random marker missions...

MatzeEdend I always thought our concept of paper money was really silly...

If I remember my history correctly, it was the Chinese emperor that thought so too. But it works and we are evolving toward electronic currency – accounting entries.

The logic in the thread is pretty rigorous.

Point: I don’t think the idea of what being able to create whole worlds would do to an economy has been really considered.

Think about this: if the ‘government’ controlled gold or any other precious commodity, why not create a world containing whatever I would buy with the gold/commodity? I could work around supply and demand by altering the supply to fit most demands. May be the D’ni failed because of economic manipulation…

This idea likely only affects raw materials. AFAIK, age writing did not enable the creation of manmade things in an age. I’m under the impression races evolved and built or D’ni traveled there and built. Also, there were various levels of age writing skill. But how pervasive was the basic skill? Gahreesen shows how the D’ni secured things by controlling paper and ink coming in age. So, I would think it was common for the D’ni to have books. But would bringing paper and ink into Gahreesen allow them to do something not otherwise possible, like write a linking book to the spot on which one stood? If that were the case and one could gain access to an age and write linking books, it would be difficult to stop theft. So, protection would focus on linking books, paper, ink and access, which we see in Gahreesen. This could shape D'ni life.

If writing were a pervasive skill I would think it would greatly change how the economy worked. One could have any raw material for the price of or the effort to make paper and ink.

Point: Whilyam’s post sets a new direction in thinking. I believe adding story and development considerations. Not only is the history of D’ni money of interest, but also the future extended context of what gets created in MOOS. It would be great to know what Cyan thought of creating. Until Cyan publishes the licenses we won’t know how servers might be supported (if there is significant cost). Those RL issues may affect what the community feels should be done with IC currency issues.

Point: Gehn touches on the amount of stuff that could be traded/acquired in Uru. The build and add process is complex so I think he is right. I expect traded/acquired content to remain limited for some time. Also, paying for server support could be completely OOC outside. So, the IC demand for a currency system does not seem that great.

Point: Either way the IRS does get involved if people can make a profit in-game. (see: Entropia Universe, SL, yadda yadda – Google virtual worlds taxes). That may be a good reason to avoid any real money in-game.

Whichever way is decided on, if the nature of D’ni currency could be discovered it may make it easier for future development. We could find the equivalent of the D’ni IRS in some age…

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Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULagain: Nal KI#00 083 543, Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers

Nalates wrote:

The logic in the thread is pretty rigorous.

Point: I don’t think the idea of what being able to create whole worlds would do to an economy has been really considered.

Think about this: if the ‘government’ controlled gold or any other precious commodity, why not create a world containing whatever I would buy with the gold/commodity? I could work around supply and demand by altering the supply to fit most demands. May be the D’ni failed because of economic manipulation…

The amazing thing is that they didn't. They lasted thousands of years without any total panic, through many different regimes, philosophies, and ethical ideals. How? This either indicates that
a) Something about the D'ni people, the way Ages were written, or the longstanding culture (but even that changes in time) made them impervious to this
b) Age writing was so hard, long, or unpredictable that they could not control resources as well as we think.
c) They somehow survived with this material overabundance, somehow

Quote:

Point: Either way the IRS does get involved if people can make a profit in-game. (see: Entropia Universe, SL, yadda yadda – Google virtual worlds taxes). That may be a good reason to avoid any real money in-game.

Whichever way is decided on, if the nature of D’ni currency could be discovered it may make it easier for future development. We could find the equivalent of the D’ni IRS in some age…

Yes, that is another point (my mention of the IRS was IC - because they'd freak out if you put down "money earned by manipulating ancient "lost" civilization's weird physics defying world making art as described in the Myst video games"). I'm against any currency system that makes itself of real world value - that just obstructs the exploration and community aspects of the game in my opinion. The lack of such an aggressive currency is one of the things that makes Uru different.

Agreed on not having real-world currency = in-world currency. EVE has issues with that. People buying in-game money. If any sort of currency-like thing were made for Uru, it would need to be monitored to prevent real legal issues.

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-Whilyam

Before I start, I'd like to make clear that I have no intention of restarting the old argument in this thread. I'm not here to antagonize anyone.

Nalates wrote:

Point: I don’t think the idea of what being able to create whole worlds would do to an economy has been really considered.

Think about this: if the ‘government’ controlled gold or any other precious commodity, why not create a world containing whatever I would buy with the gold/commodity? I could work around supply and demand by altering the supply to fit most demands. May be the D’ni failed because of economic manipulation…

The key, I think, is guilds. The most important commodity in D'ni was not a commodity at all, it was expertise and labour. As was the case on the surface, guilds serve to create a monopoly on skills, thus mantaining some kind of balance between the guilds. From this, an economy can be formed with members of one guild trading their services for services of another guild (eventually, though the use of currency, indirectly).

Nalates wrote:

This idea likely only affects raw materials. AFAIK, age writing did not enable the creation of manmade things in an age. I’m under the impression races evolved and built or D’ni traveled there and built. Also, there were various levels of age writing skill. But how pervasive was the basic skill? Gahreesen shows how the D’ni secured things by controlling paper and ink coming in age. So, I would think it was common for the D’ni to have books. But would bringing paper and ink into Gahreesen allow them to do something not otherwise possible, like write a linking book to the spot on which one stood? If that were the case and one could gain access to an age and write linking books, it would be difficult to stop theft. So, protection would focus on linking books, paper, ink and access, which we see in Gahreesen. This could shape D'ni life.

I would be cautious about extrapolating too much from Gahreesen's security measures. To me it seems to have several magnitudes of overkill. There are analogies I could draw with current events, but like I said I'm not here to antagonize anyone . The point is, the Maintainers were ready for anything. If an intruder links in with paper and ink, the beetles will get him. If he gets past the beetles, the guards will get him. If he evades the guards he still can't Write a link, because the fortress is moving! And that's just one linking book! With all these redundant layers of security, I wouldn't be surprised if the first layer was rarely used itself!

Nalates wrote:

If writing were a pervasive skill I would think it would greatly change how the economy worked. One could have any raw material for the price of or the effort to make paper and ink.

Again, the key is the guild system. The Writer's Guild would have had a monopoly on Writing. There may be one or two rogues who learned The Art through illegal channels, but on the whole I think Writing was only a pervasive skill within its own guild, just as ink making was only known to the Guild of Ink Makers and surveying was only known to the Guild of Surveyors.

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In Cavern: Dryhad (KI: 01316560)

Bogardan Mage wrote:

Again, the key is the guild system. The Writer's Guild would have had a monopoly on Writing. There may be one or two rogues who learned The Art through illegal channels, but on the whole I think Writing was only a pervasive skill within its own guild, just as ink making was only known to the Guild of Ink Makers and surveying was only known to the Guild of Surveyors.

What about Atrus (father of Gehn)? He wasn't a Writer and learned how to Write; clearly he did so legally otherwise he would have tried to hide it. It didn't seem like anyone made a big deal about a non-Writer knowing how to Write. I think the only Guilds that had a monopoly on information were the Guild on Ink Makers and the Guild of Books. That is where the control was. The other Guilds (Writers, Surveyors, etc.) definitely had the majority of the experience and expertise, but that didn't stop those from outside the Guild from having knowledge about their work.

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Frisky Badger
Guild of Maintainers
My opinions are my own and not necessarily those of the Guild of Maintainers.
KI# 00140468

I could see the guilds having a measure of control and keeping secrets to maintain power.

I think if the Writers kept writing a secret and the skill was not common, the Writers guild would have been extremely powerful. I don’t get that they were. So, while I tend to think basic age writing is was a common skill I have no direct evidence to back that up.

I suspect then as now anyone could go out and measure up things (survey). The guilds would have had the best people for any task, specialists. Just as we see people pay more for designer clothes and handmade cars, so too would there have been demand for guild made products and services. Guilds may also have been more training centers, like colleges, than product and service providers.

Or guilds may have had aspects somewhat like a union and limited what non-members could do. I don’t think that would have been possible if writing were a common skill. I could write an age, have the only linking book and work there in secret. So, I don’t see the guilds as all powerful, the archive says Ri'neref founded the guilds to meet the needs of the people and controlled them to avoid inter-guild competition. Over time they came to rule the D’ni. So, they may well have restricted knowledge. But I have not seen any canon that tells how pervasive a skill age writing was or was not.

I think we tend toward a system of accounting because of our limited resources. I don’t see the D’ni as being limited, which is why I see a possible lack of interest in an all pervasive accounting system.

If I were a D’ni art collector what would it take for me to part with a great work? Money? What would I buy that I might not have, except another piece of art or rare something? I think barter would be more likely in D’ni society. Especially if food, clothes and other resource intense common things were plentiful and cheap to the point of free.

The concept of trade with other races, brings the need for accounting systems back to life. A race in some age might have something for which I would trade the fine art. I might not be able be able to interest them in the art piece. Then a system of accounting would make life easier. So, who knows?

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Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULagain: Nal KI#00 083 543, Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers

Whilyam wrote:

Agreed on not having real-world currency = in-world currency. EVE has issues with that. People buying in-game money. If any sort of currency-like thing were made for Uru, it would need to be monitored to prevent real legal issues.

What's worse is that EVE has inadvertently created loopholes where players are actually LEGALLY allowed to buy money. In EVE, you can actually buy game-time cards if you have reached a certain large amount of in-game money (ISK). If you try to buy these cards via the game's market, they are of course very, very expensive, encouraging you to do lots more leveling before you can purchase it. The idea is to get players to spend more time in the game in order to avoid having to pay actual money for game-time. Of course, game-cards can also be sold for ISK. So now individuals are buying ISK by reselling of game cards: someone goes to Best-Buy or some other store and buys a game-time card for actual dollars, then places it on the in-game market for some obscene amount of ISK, which then gets dumped in their account. The principle of making the cards super-expensive in the game in order to motivate players to work harder inadvertently allows players to drop some dollars for the card and sell it for the hefty price. Taa-daa! You just paid 10.99 for 30 Million ISK.

It's starting to disrupt the system in a lot of ways, and was part of the reason I left. After spending months working up the ISK to buy a big battleship, I saw someone who had been in the game 8 days and already owned a ship 2 classes up from mine, thanks to a game-card. The developers try to solve this issue by making characters will low skill levels unable to pilot large vessels, but there are (legal!) game-patches that you can download that literally manages all of your skill training while you're not on the computer. You just leave EVE running in the background all night and day while your character's skills automatically continue training.

So people spend 50 dollars in game-cards, cash them in for ludicrous amounts of ISK, wait two weeks for the skills to get high enough to pilot a big ship, and then log in. Anyone willing to spend the money and wait long enough can end up with a huge advantage without even playing.

Can you hear that flushing sound? That's my wasted time, going down the potty...

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I miss my old signature.

Bummer Calam.

I have noticed that in MMO’s player presence is a ‘desired’ thing. So much so that people are paid to camp on properties (think store patio). The game map shows where people are. Some people go to groups of people to see what is happening. So, people draw people.

Much of what is going on in MMO’s is player to player interaction. The developers do things to keep people in game. In SL Grendel’s Children is a store selling dragons, monsters, fairies, mermaids, etc. To draw people they have built several sim’s of game for people to play. The store is in the air and the game is on the surface. This is a quest game and quite fun. Lots to figure out. Each player spends about L$60 (us$0.25) for two prospecting outfits. The player then starts finding material and animals in the game area. The material is used to make things you can wear or use. Discovery, puzzles of how to combine things, trade, rp and more. On the map their store always looks populated. There are always people there playing.

It seems Eve is doing things to keep people in game. My fav rp does events and various things to stir up rp and entertain people. I’m not sure what new things will get added to MOOS for entertainment value and added rp value for attracting and holding players. But, I see it as an ever more important part of successful MMO games.

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Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULagain: Nal KI#00 083 543, Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers