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Poll

Is hacking Cyan servers pushing back open source

Yes 71% (120 votes)
No 20% (34 votes)
Indifferent 8% (14 votes)

Total Votes: 168

Topic

Jamey

Joined: 29 Nov 2007

Posts: 670

Location: Wherever my ages take me.

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:39 pm — Post subject:

Legal issues take a lot of time and patience to resolve. Licensing issues as well.

When Cyan is working on MOULa, which is:
1. Currently making no money other than donations at this time
2. Which has many issues to resolve regarding legal and licensing
3. Which has very few people working on MOULa itself.

Considering as well that MOULa is a side-project, with lower priority for Cyan in comparison with working on projects that help the company make money/survive, I believe we'd be kidding ourselves if we think MOULa is going to be changing at a fast pace, be it with content in-game or tools released, any time soon.

Freelance work and internships for Cyan do sound like good ideas to help in these regards, each being beneficial to both Cyan and the state of MOULa.


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RAWA

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Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 257

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:04 pm — Post subject:

Questions and answers

1) Is hacking Cyan servers pushing back open source?

To some extent, yes. Any time spent on MO:ULagain right now is time not spent working on projects that pay Cyan's bills (MO:ULagain is not one of those projects, it has a much more modest goal of just paying for its upkeep). Those projects obviously have to be the priority, or at some point there is no Cyan and any plans for open sourcing MO:UL become moot. Time not spent on those projects now just push back when we will have "free" time for moving open source forward another step.

2) Why doesn't Cyan just do x, y, or z, or tell us why they can't?

We have explained precisely where we are and why many, many times. From the time that the intentions to open source MO:UL were first announced, we explained what the hurdles are and why progress will be slow while Cyan remains in its current situation (i.e., very few employees, extremely tight budget, etc.). Feel free to re-read Rand's explanation from Mysterium 2008, the Developer tab at the top of this page, or any of Chogon's updates that pretty much reiterate the same thing every couple of months. The situation hasn't changed. There are often legal reasons or other reasons that we can't "just do x, y, or z", depending on what they are. We are, however, making progress and taking the steps that we can when we can. Chogon has even explained what some of the next planned steps are. But, again, our priority has to be those projects that are keeping Cyan's bills paid. Period. Or else Cyan and MO:UL go away. It's not a threat. It's a simple statement of fact. When we have free time, we put the resources we can toward moving MO:UL forward. As each step is taken, there will continue to be more ways that those so inclined can contribute.

3) Why is Cyan threatening to take down MO:ULagain if people continue to exploit security holes in the current game server?

It is not a threat. It is another simple statement of fact. The security fixes during the downtime addressed the largest threats to vault corruption without crippling the game for everyone. Other security issues are currently being addressed. If they are exploited in the meantime, then vault corruption becomes a real concern again, and MO:ULagain will be taken down until those holes can be plugged as well, instead of risking vault corruption by keeping the game available while they're being plugged.

4) Will the CAVCON level be affected by these updates?

I am guessing that the CAVCON level will likely be at least temporarily affected as some funds are used to help offset the costs as programmers take time away from their paying projects to work on MO:ULagain.

5) What does Cyan go through to keep Cyan open?

I can't speak for anyone else at Cyan, but I can tell you my personal experience. After GameTap MO:UL closed and attempts to pick up other projects failed, most of the development team was laid off. I chose to take a 25% pay cut in order to remain at Cyan and work in the QA department testing games for other publishers. [Aside -- Why would one choose to take a large pay cut when one is qualified for much higher paying jobs elsewhere? There are several theories: a) I'm an idiot, b) I want to stay at Cyan and am willing to give up quite a bit to do so, c) Rand has incriminating evidence that I am from another planet, d) parts of all of the above. I think my wife picks the first one, though she doesn't say so out loud.]

When the main publisher we were testing for had "financial issues" and had to stop using our testing services, there was another large round of layoffs, this time in the QA department. I returned to the production side to work on smaller projects like Myst for the iPhone.

Since MO:ULagain opened in February, I've been averaging 70+ hours per week for Cyan, often working 7 days a week, attempting to divide my time between many different duties as the needs arise. Fortunately for Cyan, I have no life. (Well, my wife and I do homeschool our five children, so that tends to take a bit of time, but other than that, I have no life...) So when we say we are busy and things take as long as they take, it isn't because we're sitting around twiddling our thumbs or making empty excuses. We're busy. Really busy. Also, since I'm salary, those extra hours are all donated for Cyan's future at the expense of other things I could be doing with my time, like sleeping. :)

There are very few who knew any of these details. Frankly, it really isn't anyone's business. I'm explaining it now so that you can have some context for what I personally mean when I say, "We're doing the best we can with what we have."

Meanwhile, MQO and small iPhone projects are keeping us above water while various game designs continue sit in the no-man's land of being considered by publishers. If one of those is picked up our status may quickly change in ways we cannot predict. If not, we will continue to do the best we can with what we have.

6) Why won't Cyan ever accept outside help? It's FREE!!!

a) Money isn't the only factor considered. See points 2 and 5 above.
b) Offers are considered on a case by case basis. We shake a magic 8 ball and just follow its advice. Note: Our magic 8 ball is broken, and always comes up "no".
c) Offers are considered on a case by case basis. We weigh the costs (cons) against the benefits (pros). Yes, there are costs, even to "free" help. If the costs outweigh the benefits, we're likely to turn the offer down (imagine that), even if it's a good idea. If the benefits outweigh the costs (in our judgment, which may not line up with yours) we actually might accept the offer. [If this were not the case, I would never have been hired during Myst, there would have been no "Bahro scream event" to end D'mala, and on and on, and... we wouldn't have ever considered (let alone actually be taking) any steps toward open source in the first place. Those who imply that we never accept outside help are either misinformed or have selective memories.]
d) Sometimes offers sit in the "consider this later" pile for a loooong time. (See the "we're busy" part of point 5.) Zardoz can confirm that it took me over a month to get back to him on an idea of his I liked. So no response does not necessarily mean "no", it might just mean we haven't gotten to it yet while we focus on things that are higher on our priority list (not to beat Zardoz's pony, but MO:ULagain, as has been stated many times, is, by necessity, very low on that list right now).

Hope that helps.


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Last edited by RAWA on Wed May 12, 2010 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

Dudemom_2000

Joined: 27 Sep 2006

Posts: 1503

Location: Columbus, Ohio

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:12 pm — Post subject:

I bow to your awesomeness, RAWA and continue in with patience since I know how dedicated you and the others are and SO appreciate the extra mile you all at Cyan have gone for all of us. Your work ethic sets the standard for others.


Big Bouquet of Roses to you very, very hard working folk.


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Jamey

Joined: 29 Nov 2007

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:18 pm — Post subject:

Same here, you (and all others at Cyan) are awesome RAWA Very Happy


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jadawin12

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:24 pm — Post subject:

Yes, thank you thank you, and thanks for taking the time to respond. We really do appreciate the work you all put into this unpaid no less. Thanks again.


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Kolian

Joined: 09 Nov 2006

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:31 pm — Post subject:

Okay, so if we are down to:

1) Legal minefield
2) Stuff takes time to do

Can't we stop throwing around the "proprietary" phrase, at least with respect to Cyan? Cyan has no interest in protecting the code that they own since it is no longer profitable; they only have an interest in protecting the stuff that other people own and managing their person-hours effectively. The question stands: Is fixing security holes an effective use of said person-hours?

Or, to ask the real question: Given the choice between a functional MOULAgain and faster Open Source, which is better?


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JWPlatt

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:32 pm — Post subject:

Pony and pony! What is pony?!

I need a mascot.

Thanks, RAWA. Smile


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Pavitra

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:37 pm — Post subject:

Kolian wrote:

Or, to ask the real question: Given the choice between a functional MOULAgain and faster Open Source, which is better?



Good question.

I'm inclined to suspect that, as long as we stay above CAVCON 3, a functional MOULagain is likely to hasten rather than delay Open Source.


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BAD

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:56 pm — Post subject:

My response to RAWA: OK sounds good.


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A'na

Joined: 02 Jun 2006

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:00 pm — Post subject:

Well now I feel guilty. No one should have to work those hours so I can enjoy myself. Sad


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Tomala

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:08 pm — Post subject:

Bravo! Excellent! Spectacular!


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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:21 pm — Post subject:

RAWA wrote:

Rand has incriminating evidence that I am from another planet,

I know I knew him from somewhere

I cant thank you enough for your response Thanks again RAWA and Cyan. From both of me


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Janara

Joined: 09 May 2006

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:28 pm — Post subject:

Thank you, RAWA, for generously giving us your time. (And thanks to your wife and children who generously allow us to take up your time!)
Janara Smile


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Mystryman

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:34 pm — Post subject:

Thank you RAWA!!

As for myself, when the cavern closed in April of '08, I decided to take a wait-and-see attitude with Cyan. With all the dedicated fans of Uru, I felt that it wiould be only a matter of time (however long that might be) for Cyan to return to some form of Uru Live. When they announced the settlement between themselves and GameTap, and their plans for MORE, I decided to be patient and wait for Cyan to weather their financial crisis.

My Patience was rewarded with the release of MOULa. Did it happen as quickly as I would have liked? No. Unfortunately the timing was not my call... nor that of any other explorer.

I will be patient again for the release of open-source Uru.

My desires are two-fold (in order of importance):

1) For Cyan to be a viable and profitable company once again... for without Cyan, there is no more Uru in *any* incarnation!

2) New content for MOULa or an open-source Uru... or both.

I feel your pain, RAWA. I too have been involved in a multi-year project that forced me to work 70+ hour weeks while on salary... and in so doing, donating 30+ hours per week (many time 50+ hours) to the company in pro bono work!

.shorah gah bigtotee (Peace and blessings.)


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walt_scrivens

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Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:49 pm — Post subject:

Thanks for the clarification, RAWA!

Walt


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