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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:22 pm 
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D'Lanor wrote:
No, the boat is a different thing. There's a fish and there's a boat. Both are turned off in MOULa.

Does anyone have pics of these?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Here you go.

[spoiler=boat and fish]Image[/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:02 pm 
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Hm. I think I just got excited about Uru for the first time since MOULa opened.

I feel some ideas brewing...

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:42 pm 
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Since we're now revealing the secrets of the lake light project:

[spoiler]While, yes, the hoods are the only place where the system is fully implemented in the game files for brightening the lake. Other areas of the cavern are set up to brighten, just not in the same way. Kveer, Kirel, and the BaronCityOffice all have their lakes and backdrops ready to be brightened. There's just no responders and SDLs linked to them in the game files to do so. So It would seem that at one point Cyan had planned ahead and gotten ready to make these areas also function in a similar way. They just never had the chance to finish.l[/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Free Bird wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
I believe it's the best, the most real, and the most significant part of the game so far with its integration of multiple ages, a public setting and the engendering of community cooperation - not division - within an environmental challenge.

You have got to be kidding me.

^This.^ More entertaining than this is the claim that this is somehow scientific. It has been demonstrated that this project is completely arbitrary, similar to the GZ missions. There may be a mathematical solution, but (as was mentioned earlier) we do not have a capacity to know ANY of the necessary data to truly make this a scientific venture.

Furthermore, the "cooperation, not division" aspect is hilarious given the groups dropping bad pellets in direct confrontation with the "good" pellet droppers.

The lake light project is one of the worst-implemented group puzzles (the worst being the GZ). There are ways to improve it, though. A good first step would be to automatically spread the lake light information in-game. Have imagers in public areas also display the GLOBAL pellet information.

The main problem is that Platt and Cyan have set themselves up as the people "in-the-know" with special information (the algorithm, in this case) the puzzle-solvers never know. This is very bad puzzle design. No puzzle in Myst history (to my knowledge) has ever used this kind of trick. Certainly none of the truly great ones. Mind-numbing as they might be, the hardest, most rewarding puzzles in Myst history used information the solver already had come across. I'm thinking mostly of the marble puzzle in Riven. You had seen that information, you just had to recognize the pattern in the press and apply that knowledge. Kadish's code is another example of the same process. You didn't just smack random buttons on the vault (well, I did... and it worked the first time, too) you applied publicly-available information to the problem.

In the pellet project, you know WHAT you have to do, but not for how long. This makes the puzzle, no matter what the mathematical or "scientific" basis, purely grinding. It's as if you had to keep pressing the Kadish Vault buttons in the right sequence 10,000 times (more likely in the billions if we're making an analogy to the pellets) before the vault would open. We have no information with which to discover the length of time in which we need to perform the action.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
The main problem is that Platt and Cyan have set themselves up as the people "in-the-know" with special information (the algorithm, in this case) the puzzle-solvers never know.

You make it sound as if JW has access to the same information as Cyan and has conspired to keep it from the explorers when you know that's not true. You've been around long enough to know the backstory of why JWPlatt is the one receiving any information at all - because he lobbied for it in a long term concerted and IC effort.

[spoiler=Backstory on Pellet Data Collection]Sep 17, 2007: JWPlatt questions the DRC about their graph on pellet numbers: To Mr. Laxman: The Pellet Graph

Late Sep 2007: JWPlatt begins a concerted effort to gain the attention of the DRC for the purpose of starting a dialogue in order to gain more information and feedback with regards to the lake lighting effort. The Pellet Points hood is created and Explorers are encouraged to donate their pellet points there to demonstrate their support for the cause.

Nov 04, 2007: With community support in place, JWPlatt's efforts to gain more information from the DRC are finally realized in a meeting with Victor Laxman: Chatlog: Laxman Agrees To Experiment (11/4/07)

Nov 05, 2007: Due to funding cuts, Victor Laxman departs the cavern for an indefinite stay on the surface.

Nov 07, 2007: JWPlatt posts that, before Laxman left the cavern, he made arrangements to continue providing pellet data: Mr. Laxman Keeps His Word About Experiment[/spoiler]from Lake Lighting Project Historical Data Links


But, otherwise, I agree with your points.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
In the pellet project, you know WHAT you have to do, but not for how long.


I'm not even sure that's accurate. We know some pellets are good and some are bad, and we know how they effect the lake health. But RAWA's always talking about consistency over time as more important than quantity or quality on their own (while both are important).

So, I'm not entirely sure we even know WHAT we have to do.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:18 am 
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History has shown that once misinformation exists, it persists.

So for the record, I have no idea what the simulator algorithm is or how it works. I can well imagine, knowing Cyan and RAWA, it is ecologically sound and complex. This project is PvE - player versus the environment, which is what I meant by "environmental" in my previous post, though ecology does nicely fit the term too.

Like the rest of you now, I only know the simulator exists. It's what helps me believe. And so you know just as much as I do. This may explain why, when folks repeatedly asked for proof, I could only express my faith in the project and continue my efforts with it. I have found over time the proof is unnecessary anyway because I have come to trust the good folks at Cyan Worlds; kind human beings. I have played and worked with them. There have been many times where I've watched the community have a crisis in faith only to be informed at a more practical time for the game or for Cyan, and people said, oh yeah, that does make sense after all! I had to play, and be an activist, and be challenging, and confront the DRC in an IC way to make any progress whatsoever.

I had plenty of complaints about how the Lake Project was being handled, both OOC and IC, and let my voice be heard, but only OOC. I'll tell you now that when I approached Greydragon (Ryan Warzecha, Community Manager of MOUL) with detailed and strong concerns the community and I had about the Lake Project, he gave me the best advice ever. He told me the only way I was ever going to get something done was IC. So I did. Anyone could have done it. Some could have done it better. You don't need to be privileged; only motivated; and work at it. And I had help. I discovered I had some great support from others like Tai'lahr, Erik, Marten, Mac_Fife, EthanEver, and the entire German Community. Even though most of the pellet droppers never knew it it, their efforts helped prove my case in an IC way.

These folks don't help because they think I have any special ties to Dr. Watson. They persist in their efforts because they are positive, progressive and constructive. They like what is happening and find or invent ways to enjoy it. This has not been a lonely and solitary project. It should not be surprising there was something - the simulator - to trust. The simulator is important knowledge now ONLY because there's no guarantee that Cyan can get to fully implementing the planned gameplay surrounding the project. And it appears others have taken this news, including the simulator, to heart as much as I did.

Scientific discovery is not preceded by the knowledge of equations handed down from nature with a literal signpost carved by lightning. The equations are discovered by the accumulation of scientific knowledge.

Edits: Typos. Oh, and you can call me JW.

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Last edited by JWPlatt on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:12 am 
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thank you RAWA great news and it is good to hear things are progressing. * The best news is that the Cavern IS alive and we are having fun in there.

* Mod note: Edited - 1/17/11 - see -Intentionally pushing people's buttons

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Last edited by CrisGer on Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:34 am 
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Furthermore, the "cooperation, not division" aspect is hilarious given the groups dropping bad pellets in direct confrontation with the "good" pellet droppers.

I'll answer this one specifically because it's one of the big reasons I value this project. The Lake Project does not "manufacture" division. Anyone who has been around long enough knows very well what I mean by that. It is the nature of the project to reward cooperation. Although the Lake Project gameplay provides the freedom to do good, bad, or stay neutral, it does not manufacture division for it's own sake.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:01 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore, the "cooperation, not division" aspect is hilarious given the groups dropping bad pellets in direct confrontation with the "good" pellet droppers.

I'll answer this one specifically because it's one of the big reasons I value this project. The Lake Project does not "manufacture" division. Anyone who has been around long enough knows very well what I mean by that. It is the nature of the project to reward cooperation. Although the Lake Project gameplay provides the freedom to do good, bad, or stay neutral, it does not manufacture division for it's own sake.

/me gets out of lurking. :)
I am glad you picked up the old discussion about URU live and your point of view,
I still don't agree with you. It is not about good or bad. Myst is still myst and it's about trust in information,
IC : Up till now we still have no information about the behaviour of the algae and don't know what is good or bad. The only info available is some vague info from the DRC that pellets which provide an orange glow will be good. Up till now our community provided more than 84.000 pellets with that glow and no change happened. So is thew info correct? and who do you trust in this matter JWPlatt, The DRC?
OOC: I am glad not to know the meaning of the game. It makes me anxious to know what path i should take to reveil the real meaning of the project. I still don't know if feeding or killing some algea or what ever will benefit the lighting of the lake. Yes it is a basis of good discussion and a basis for division. So I still disagree that it doesn't manufacture division.
The nature of great zero was indeed cooperation but for lightning the lake it is completely differen due to lack of info.
I think your starting point in the discussion manufactured divisions just says enough and it's a pity you were not around in prologue or before that to comprehend the meaning of choosing paths.

Wow, only this thread about lightning of the lake creates division. :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:46 am 
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Tai'lahr: Honestly, I didn't know Platt's involvement was so small. The way he proclaimed that the simulator would not be discovered by reverse engineering, etc. implied that he was one of the sacred cyan who had seen the inner workings. Now I just know he's full of it (as usual).

JWPlatt wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore, the "cooperation, not division" aspect is hilarious given the groups dropping bad pellets in direct confrontation with the "good" pellet droppers.

I'll answer this one specifically because it's one of the big reasons I value this project. The Lake Project does not "manufacture" division. Anyone who has been around long enough knows very well what I mean by that. It is the nature of the project to reward cooperation. Although the Lake Project gameplay provides the freedom to do good, bad, or stay neutral, it does not manufacture division for it's own sake.


It's not the project itself, it's the implementation. Division is largely based on the various "protest" groups demanding information and coming into contention with "pro-lighting" groups.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:47 am 
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Location: um... how did i get here..?
well, in an abandoned effort to upstage a neighbor on the imager i dumped whatever score i had... now that i've been thoroughly reassured that our efforts don't in fact amount to *just* shiney numbers i suppose it's back to the old grind. i know this amounts to nothing more than wishful thinking but i wish the actual process of dumping pellets and baking recepies wasn't so... mundane... in fact, the endurance required is almost unbearable (for me anyway) esp when myst has only ever amounted to a casual experience for most ppl. (though if casual is what you're looking for URU ain't it) it's also nice to know that so many of us weren't just seeing things when we arrived and thought we noticed the lake having a nice healthier looking glow that day. and kudo's to RAWA for keeping on top of things! :D

it's nice his response is so revealing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:15 am 
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Whilyam wrote:
Tai'lahr: Honestly, I didn't know Platt's involvement was so small. The way he proclaimed that the simulator would not be discovered by reverse engineering, etc. implied that he was one of the sacred cyan who had seen the inner workings.

It was my understanding from RAWA's post that the simulator was something separate from the vault (like a weather model that predicts a hurricane's path), so it's only common sense that no one poking around in the vault would be able to find it.

Whilyam wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
Although the Lake Project gameplay provides the freedom to do good, bad, or stay neutral, it does not manufacture division for it's own sake.

It's not the project itself, it's the implementation. Division is largely based on the various "protest" groups demanding information and coming into contention with "pro-lighting" groups.

I agree that there is more division now than would be natural if Cyan had been able to implement the project the way they'd planned. But, it's still not purposely manufactured. I'm as frustrated as anyone that Cyan can't play out the storyline right now, so information regarding the lake won't be forthcoming at this time, but what can we do about it?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:18 am 
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Even more than common sense, RAWA wrote twice that the simulation is done "offline."

I am reminded now that RAWA did considerately put the simulator details into a nested spoiler, so for those of you who feel too spoiled, please pardon all our references to it out in the open like this now. But the thread has been moved to the spoiler section, so at least we have that.

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