It is currently Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:45 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:55 pm
Posts: 625
tanshin wrote:
Tai'lahr wrote:
As OHB noted, Greeters aren't on hiatus, just the guild that supports them, and therein lies much of the basis for these discussions.


I think that brings up a very good point there as well. I know I often say "Greeters" and refer to the GoG, while sometimes I'll say GoG or Greeters to refer to the people. So perhaps we need to set some specific definitions for this discussion to avoid any misunderstandings?


This is definitely a problem. I think we all need to be clear when we have issues with the GoG *leadership* as opposed to issues having issues with the individual greeters. I don't think anyone wants to attack the individual Greeters. The active greeters are still doing good work in the cavern - when there's one of them around.

The GoG leadership, on the other hand, has repeatedly refused to consider opening membership and re-activating the guild as a whole, and I've heard rumors that at this point that leadership is refusing to allow any sort of elections to change the internals of the Guild. If the leadership considers the guild inactive, and refuses to allow any members to have a voice in changing that status, then the guild is dead. There may still be active greeters... but there's no longer a Guild of Greeters.

_________________
MOULagain KI #: 66990

When I was your age, we rocket-jumped up hill both ways in boiling lava.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:04 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:59 am
Posts: 817
Location: Guild of Healers' (Forthcoming) Age
I have many good friends who are in the Guild of Greeters. I have heard many good things about the Greeters and the Guild over the years, and I've sent many a new explorer to the GoG website and Hood. I hope the guild and its members can work things out as there is a great deal of history and community service attached to the overall entity.

Nalates wrote:
Martin eloquently points out the importance of and interest in the GoG. I also understand another of his points about ‘the guilds exist to serve the community’. I see that from another point of view where I think that phrasing, which while accurate, hides the nature of guilds.

People often get far too lost in altruistic ideals and fail to understand actual human nature and fit their plans to it. And in failing to do that their efforts to serve the community fail. Guilds DO NOT exist to serve the community. They exist because people want to help other people. A guild, organization, allows them to do that more efficiently. That may too subtle for some. I know of no guild that exists to meet its own ends and serve itself.


"Guilds do not exist to serve the community" In part, I agree with this. Is this your statement? It rather negates the next one...

"I know of no guild that exists to meet its own ends and serve itself"

If this is what you meant to say, it may or may not be the case today. I think it depends on the guild. It was not the case either in the D'ni culture nor on earth. It is my understanding that the medieval model is the one on which Cyan based the D’ni guilds. If so, some information on medieval guilds might be helpful here. Those guilds were set up to benefit the masters of the guild (first), the membership (second) and the community in order to promote the value of the the guild (third).

A little history (in tags so as not to bore anyone).
[spoiler]
Medieval guilds were established to protect the interests of the master craftsmen by providing a means through which they could set comparable prices (to keep them higher), supervise the quality of the items produced by guild members, control membership itself by requiring quality work of apprentices and journeymen, and control access to educational resources and training of membership hopefuls. The guild master was the teacher, and his approval was vital for anyone to rise in the ranks. Masters vied with each other for recognition, power, and control of guild policy. Only when a journeyman reached a certain level of training did he (more he than she) become considered for membership. Only when the masterpiece demonstrated acceptable quality could the journeyman expect full rights as a Guild Master. Membership was not automatic and voting often limited to the Masters themselves. They decided whose voices would be heard. Guilds were not, in any way, meant to be democratic or open.

Guilds also promoted themselves through community service, charitable activities, and event organization. Most were also a fraternal or sorority organization but that was a secondary purpose. The primary purpose was to control prices, quality, and access to membership and resources. The glass ceiling of new mastership was raised or lowered depending on the economy, political environment, or demand for products.[/spoiler]

I don’t know the innermost workings of all the modern versions of the D’ni “guilds,” but I have seen that some vary from the medieval model (thank goodness!). Even the D’ni model won’t work in the Uru community that exists now. D’ni Masters competed with each other and with masters from other guilds for power and recognition. (Ghen’s teachers in the guild school come to mind) A modern GM will lead because he or she is a good leader and not because he or she is a good controller. Current Uru Guilds see leadership by a small number of GM’s, yes, but those GM’s do not have ultimate control (or should not). There’s a huge difference there. Members may not want to be the leaders, but they do expect to have a voice in the way the guild works. Many work as hard as the GM without any need for recognition or perception of power. These days, IMO, anyone who agrees to lead can’t really expect adulation to the exclusion of criticism, nor assume that they will have either the last word or the ultimate decision (unless that stipulation is also agreed upon by membership). Dr. Watson’s caution about pride (or the expression of fear over the loss of control that looks a lot like pride) still holds as valid.

_________________
We are the shapers and the caretakers of this metaverse. How we honor ourselves and others largely determines what we bring into being.

A story: CavernScents Journey

Ghaelen: Moula.2 KI #64299


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:22 pm
Posts: 1750
Location: California
@OHB – THERE.com’s greeter system that you describe is a company organized greeter system. In general all the stats say that type of orientation/new-player-help system works less well than what players will provide on their own. There.com is out of business. We don’t have the stats to study to know what the greeter system contributed or didn’t. Nor can we know how many people were in favor of it or had problems with it. All we can do is speculate. I’ll point out that THERE.com had greeters and is out of business. Uru had greeters and is essentially out of business. SL used greeters and lost 95+% of new signups… So, there appears to be a pattern that this empirical evidence, studies, and stats support. While that is technically accurate, it projects the unfounded concept that company organized greeters don’t work, when we actually lack facts in two of the three examples.

As to what I think of THERE’s system… I don’t have enough information to form an intelligent opinion. I doubt even participants in the THERE Greeters have enough information to go past an ‘I enjoyed it’ or an ‘I think it worked’ personal testimony. That doesn’t really provide the factual information needed to make decisions about game design.

I’ll point out that the comments in this thread are now pointing out that the Greeters, individuals, are doing fine and the GoG organization is failing to support its members. It seems that is the pattern we see in most games. People have problems with the ‘greeter’ organizations and repeatedly try to make a better organization. But, people appreciate the individuals that help them. So, why do we keep trying to make a better organization?

@Tweek, my question was in a paragraph about IP property… it wasn’t about how the organization was run.

@Tai'lahr, I appreciate your point. But, the idea that this is about what the GoG organization can do… I can’t see how that can help when the ‘organization’ is for practical purposes unconscious. If you are looking for creative ideas for the GoG members to act on… we may be able to help.

Your opinion, “…guilds exist to support their members whatever their mission may be.” fits with mine. I don’t see the organization as a real thing. Those that want to help, whatever their motivation, organize their information, tasks, training, and guidelines and call it an organization, after which people then seem to focus on the organization and try to figure out how to make its organization of the members better… which I see as completely upside down.

@ghaelen, I’ll point out that the comments about the greeters are really about the people participating in helping others while wearing the ‘Greeter’ label. I don’t see the positive comments here and in your reference as being about the leadership, by-laws, guidelines, and other stuff that make up the organization. As you point out old time guilds were about controlling authority to the benefit of the leaders, or at least they devolved to that.

What I am trying to get across by writing, “Guilds DO NOT exist to…” is that it is not the collection of rules, leaders, bureaucratic activity, positions, and other stuff that make up a guild that does the work nor is it an organization’s mission statement to help others that creates or provides the service.

While it is the members that do the helping… I have to wonder why the memebers always want to do so in a frame work that repeatedly turns out to be the problem that prevents the goal from being achieved and is what people argue about?

That the current guilds have no control or authority and apparently no way to ever gain such control or authority, it seems certain that most guild models from RL history will not work. If one wants to be of service to others, it seems their goal would be to remain free to do that without interference. So, why does everyone seem to want to create an organization to control their activity in moving to be of service?

_________________
Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULa I: Nal KI#00 083 543, MOULa II: KI#00 583 875Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:06 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 3718
Location: Digging around in the dusty archives, uncovering Uru history.
Nalates wrote:
If one wants to be of service to others, it seems their goal would be to remain free to do that without interference. So, why does everyone seem to want to create an organization to control their activity in moving to be of service?

You make some very good points, Nalates. However, there are very good reasons for a group of volunteers to have an organization:
    * They seek like-minded individuals with which to share their experiences;
    * They can organize reference materials and training to enhance their ability to provide a service (the GoG has done an excellent job in this area and it would be a shame to lose);
    * The organization can nurture its members and encourage more service through recognition programs.
I have participated in a volunteer organization in RL for over ten years, five of that as the local chapter's Training Officer and another four as its Chapter Representative. What I've learned is that no matter what motivates people to begin volunteer service, they all have an innate need for recognition of their service.

The Guild of Greeters provided this recognition up to a point. When a potential candidate first gains access to the forum and begins their training, they are warmly welcomed in a special thread. Once they've completed their training requirements, they receive the special shirt. This tells the community that they've earned something. It's recognition of their hard work and it's important. But, it's just a shirt and it can quickly lose its value to the wearer if they're not respected and nurtured by the organization.

The organization to which I belong in RL has, in many ways, the same structure as the Guild of Greeters. There is a State Coordinator & Asst Coordinator employed by the sponsoring government agencies and an Advisory Committee of volunteers appointed by the State Coordinators based on the skills, knowledge and experience they can bring to the committee. None of these people are elected and we, the volunteers don't have a say in the matter. So, it's not that I can't accept the heirarchy of the GoG; I can, but...

The difference between this RL organization and the GoG is that the State Coordinators listen to the volunteers and reply in a respectful manner. It doesn't matter if they hold a position on the Advisory Committee or in a local chapter or if they hold no position at all; they could even still be in training, but they'll receive a respectful reply to their question. Even if they don't like the answer they get, their opinion is recognized as valid and they are acknowledged as a valuable member of the organization. And, that's all I ever wanted from the GoG - to be heard and treated with respect.

In summary, the purpose of a modern day guild or any volunteer organization is to support and nurture their members.

Edit: I should add that, having served in leadership roles, I recognize some of the difficulties the Guild Masters must deal with and sympathize with them. Quite frankly, I believe the demoralizing of the guild began with Cyan and their poor communication. Would it have killed them to contact the GM once in a while and say, "Great job! Keep up the good work!"? As Yeesha said (and I'm paraphrasing here), the water flows down... :wink:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:34 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:28 am
Posts: 1230
I'd also like to point out that groups come together on their own for the reasons that Tai' listed. It's a natural thing and not a bad thing.

So far there have basically been two sides to this discussion. Either:

a) the GoG in the post-MO:UL GT era is no longer relevant so it should go away
b) the GoG is still relevant and needed so it should open up.

I think this should be split into several options and each one considered.

a) the GoG is no longer relevant and should go away
b) the GoG in it's current form is no longer relevant so it needs to change into something else
c) the GoG is still relevant and it should return to it's GT operating practices

The simple version of these are a) go away, b) change, c) get back to work.

So using those three options, perhaps we could each pick what we would do if the decision was ours and expand on it if necessary. Or if none of these apply, write a new one. It's a "If I was the GM..." thing.

There's also the question in here of what the community's response to this will be? If we assume for a moment that the Guild does nothing to fix the problems, where does that leave the GoG in the eyes of the rest of the community? What will the community do in a post-GoG world?

_________________
Image
Click here to change my signature!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:46 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 3718
Location: Digging around in the dusty archives, uncovering Uru history.
I have just a few more things to say here and then I think I'm done with all this. I just want the GoG GMs to know that I'm not just being a rabble rouser or trying to cause a lot of trouble for them. I want them to know that this discussion is taking place because (and I'd like to think I'm speaking for the majority of the community here):

    * We care about the Guild of Greeters and want to see it survive - for all its historical significance, its wealth of resources, and its invaluable contributions to Uru.

    * We care about the individual Greeters - they are our friends and members of the Uru family. We are all just players here, but these people have volunteered their time and expertise to enhance the experience for others. We recognize that sometimes it can be an exhausting and thankless job.

    * We care about the Guild Masters who have devoted significant amounts of time and energy to manage the organization and we recognize that they are also unpaid volunteers. And, for their devotion in the face of adversity, they deserve our respect and admiration.
The only reason I began this thread was out of frustration. I read the Guild of Greeters - Discussion thread here with interest, but without posting as I’m not comfortable criticizing the GoG. I was shocked and dismayed when it was locked and so I expressed that in a similar thread on the GoG forum and continued to participate in the discussion there. When my ideas were met with personal attacks and then that thread was locked as well, it was just too much for me to bear. I just wanted to be heard and allow others to be heard and have everyone's opinion treated with respect. I believe that has been accomplished here and I thank everyone who participated.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:24 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: Washougal, WA
*pauses his studies to join the discussion again*

I do think this has been a productive conversation, but I hate to think of it ending here when I see there are opportunities to move forward - and an option that OHB did not consider.

Tai'lahr wrote:
The purpose of a modern day guild or any volunteer organization is to support and nurture their members.

I'm not comfortable with this definition. It sounds to me more like the definition of a support group than a guild.

I prefer to think in these terms: Any organization (volunteer or otherwise) exists to accomplish the shared goals of those who have invested in it. Organizations form around these goals when the objective is too lofty for a single person to reach alone. A well defined organization defines its goals in a mission statement or similar.

In a volunteer organization, all volunteers are investors in the organization and therefore have some involvement in setting the goals. But the focus is still on shared goals Some members may desire nurturing and support, but not all members may expect that. And the organization cannot always meet every need of every volunteer. That is why the shared goals are more important than the individual, personal needs.

OHB set forth three options, each of which disappointed me:
OHB wrote:
a) the GoG is no longer relevant and should go away
b) the GoG in it's current form is no longer relevant so it needs to change into something else
c) the GoG is still relevant and it should return to it's GT operating practices

Each option seems to be an attempt to push or influence or set the direction of the GoG. I propose option d.

d) Lead by example.

Focus on doing what you feel needs to be done. Spent your effort on activities that are within your actual control. That is why I said much earlier, that I felt this thread would be more productive if it was retitled. I'll try another example: "How can we meet new players' needs that we feel aren't being addressed?"

_________________
Image
MOULa 26838 | Prologue Video Project: On Hold pending Minkata support
Visit rel.to to explore Myst, Uru, and D'ni communities!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:01 am
Posts: 204
Location: 4mile dwn1200milesENE 1mile up
I was going to keep my 2% out of this but as a long time member of the community I feel a need to speak.
This only pertains to Tai'larh's posts.

Tia'larh's startng post.
1. agree and to bad applications are closed for now.
2. this is unfortunate
3.This is being done in a ..off-handed way. The GOG was< sanctioned when it was a commerical venture and the rise to the top of the nexus is now more a necessity than a representive role of Cyan.(imo).

1a. GOG BEVIN/HOOD should defintely be stuck to the top. New explorers still need a place of assitance.
2a. Yes the GOG should change with the times.,but I am not a member, so that is up to the off- line guild members.
3a Is Cyan really still sanctioning this guild? other than allowing it to stay at the top of the nexus, and why do you need a closed member ship, in the off-line and in-cavern sense.

You are/have been a wonderful Greeter and it won't die, in-cavern sense, unless we as a cavern community allow it to.

2/18/ post
The GOG (imo) was started to do what it did, MEET, GREET, ASSIST, new exporers. It has done a fine job of that until MOULa came back. The GOG was allowed to slip from the top of the nexus and of the Greeters weren't around because of lack of interest in the cavern,which I hold no blame to any one.
Now GOG guild website holds to much information to fade away. (/me gets on knees and prays to Yahvo " PLease don't let this happen.")
Now if I want to be a Greeter in-cavern, I believe I still have that option. Just throw a shirt on and go do it, all though I may not be an offical member out side of that, or I can just start my own type of hood.
YES we do care about all the Greeters and their web-site WE DO NOT WANT to loose that.
Last point I would like to make is that the GOG has NOTHING to do with player retention. There are tooooo many helpful and assisting long time exploerers that are filling in,so it is really the new explorer's lack of interest or problem.

(hold the right to re-edit :wink: )

_________________
DaVinci
no I haven't completed the Code
Shorah and be well
KI 00142411


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:33 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:19 am
Posts: 254
Location: Clarkston, Michigan, USA
Just to add a few comments of my own here.

The Greeters never went away, even before the reopening of the cavern. While the traffic and postings slowed down, both on this forum and the GoG forum, several of us were still actively posting and helping out when we could, in addition to making further improvements and revisions to the website.

In the cavern, the number of active Greeters in the cavern did fall to a handful after the initial rush and jubilation at the return, but we were still there when we could be. Personally, I've always found it difficult to take a "regular shift" in the GoG Bevin. On the other hand, rather than stand around an empty GoG Bevin, I would try to wait in the newest of the DRC Bevins to meet as many of the first-time explorers as I could. This can be the most difficult and repetitive of the greeting jobs, but I think it's the most important and the most rewarding. The other thing I was doing was every time I came in, I'd have to go through the Nexus and bump the GoG link back to the top to keep it from falling too far down the list, or dropping off it completely. Thankfully, that task is no longer required.

But since there were too few of us, I came up with an alternative to try to help the new explorers when we couldn't be there. I would create a new avatar that would (usually) automatically become a member of the newest DRC Bevin so I could post a detailed message on the hood imager. This message is carefully crafted to help the new explorers realize the importance of getting their KI so they would be able to reach the city where they will have a better chance to meet others and get help or have their questions answered. This is done without giving any spoilers. I also suggest visiting the Guild of Greeters Bevin for the information posted there, as well as the GoG website for even more information and help. (I'm making an assumption that they already know about the MOUL website, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten this far.)

The results were a lot more traffic through the GoG Bevin, which I could directly track, so I know they were at least finding their KI now. While I had this new avatar as a hood member, I was also able to give more direct help if they showed up while I was there, either with the KI or by chasing them down if they first wandered into the "instanced" version of the city. And for some of those DRC Bevins I've missed, sometimes I've been lucky enough to find a new explorer there who can help me post the message while I'm giving them a lesson on how to use their KI. Every one I've asked has been happy to help.

The message I've been posting works, even if it's a poor substitute for having someone there to meet the newcomers as they arrive. Some others of you have already realized how important it is to meet these new explorers, and I'd like to encourage you to continue!

Everyone can greet, T-shirt or not! That's just part of being in this community. What some may not realize is that those who wear the shirt have to adhere to a fairly strict set of standards and decorum, and not everyone is suited to work within those limitations. Fun as it may be, it is also a very serious job, and can be quite a burden and frustrating at times. We are not compensated in any way for this, except for the satisfaction derived from helping others, and the occasional thanks we get for doing so.

Robin, Robyn, Robbyn

_________________
"What are we going to do today, Borg?"
"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus:
Try to assimilate the world!"
-Pinkutus & the Borg


Ad astra
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:12 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:28 am
Posts: 1230
Robin wrote:
I would create a new avatar that would (usually) automatically become a member of the newest DRC Bevin so I could post a detailed message on the hood imager.

ah HA! We've been discussing you over here -> http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 589#366589

We need to talk... :)

_________________
Image
Click here to change my signature!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:22 pm
Posts: 1750
Location: California
I’m not getting the concepts across…

OHB and Martin were still talking about what the guild should do and what it is. Fortunately DaVinci puts the solution in simple concrete terms. There seems a load of confusion about people structuring their activities to get something done and turning that into an entity that can then slow or even block their efforts. Very quickly the discussion and thinking is off the subject of ‘how can I help’ to what a guild is and the abstract ideas of how to run it and whether it can be fixed. It’s like trying to understand why a house is cracking and settling and not understanding what a foundation is and how it is designed. Let’s see if I can rearrange words so concepts come through.

OHB is right, people come together and decide who handles which tasks to make more efficient use of time and avoid reinventing wheels. When that is done well it is very effective. When it is done poorly… it is usually a political drama.

The purpose for Greeters is to help people and creating structure is just to allow more help to be provided. Spending some amount of time building a structure and preserving the structure is reasonable. When less effort is spent greeting than is spent creating-maintaining structure and methods, why is one participating? When the experience is about drama, politics, and frustration and efforts to help, why bother?

At some point people seem to start to think of the structure as an entity that actually controls and enables the helping. It is not. It is the association of people they submit to and assist in a cooperative effort to hopefully enhance their helping effort. The label GoG is simply and easy way to say Bob, Carol, Ted, and Alice are into such and such. As soon as one realizes the association of people is hindering their effort and like the BCTA characters will never reach their goal, I would think one would reconsider their participation. The complexity of BCTA's problems and the effort needed to change the behavior of those involved is such few would even consider trying to fix them. In RL the like minded people fragment and form a new association to provide help. In the BCTA analogy people realize BCTA are enamored with an exciting idea they can’t realize because of all their hang-ups. It seems GoG management is too hung-up.

Statistics suggest individuals within in a community can do a better job than organized organizations of helpers. But organizations fill a need for those that need structure, instructions, and those that need to exert control. In a gaming community there is little need pay rent, handle money, keep records, or all the other tasks RL charities and service organizations must deal with. So, there is considerably less need for a centralized authority or structure.

So, rather than trying to figure out what the imaginary entity can do, which is sort of like trying to figure out how a file cabinet will lead, the focus should be on each individual member. What does a specific person want, whether the current structure helps them or hinders them, do the people in the association help or hinder them, and identify the individuals choices to reach their goal. Otherwise everyone is working on or figuring out how to get around or fix the file cabinet and no one is out helping. One seriously needs to ask, are they interested in helping new players or messing with the politics of a group of people whose current beliefs will never let them move ahead?

DaVinci, does a nice job of expressing the solution that works now. I believe he is right that Cyan stickied the GoG bevin/neighborhood more as a convenience than an endorsement. Also, if one has a concern about losing the wealth of information on the GoG site, download a copy of the web site and archive it. (HTTrack can be used to easily capture a site.)

Robin is an example of a Greeter just getting it done.

_________________
Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULa I: Nal KI#00 083 543, MOULa II: KI#00 583 875Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:02 pm
Posts: 142
Location: On the fault line between then and now
Robin wrote:
Quote:
But since there were too few of us, I came up with an alternative to try to help the new explorers when we couldn't be there.

And it's simply brilliant! Thank you!

non

_________________
All your base 25 are belong to us


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4126
I think most of the previous posters have hit most of the points I'd make on this, but here goes my view:

We need to establish some facts.

1. The GoG, as it is today, cannot continue. Why? I argue that the GoG does not meet the needs of the new players who need help. They do not meet this need because new players tell me that they cannot find Greeters in any public area. I argue that the GoG does not meet the needs of those interested in volunteering for them. They do not meet this need because the Guild is no longer accepting people to these positions and, once they are in those positions, the Guild takes too much control over them.
2. The leadership is the issue. Why? If what I outlined in my first point is correct, the problem is a lack of Greeters in the public areas and the lack of Greeters is caused by the "hiatus." Since those in power today are the ones who put this unofficial hiatus in place, continue it, and would oversee future volunteer applications, I argue that it logically follows that they are to blame for the present situation.

Now to my views.

The GoG needs changes to its leadership, its relationship with the public, its structure, and its organization.

The leadership needs to change because they are the reason there are so few Greeters. Moreover, the present leadership is made up of people who display to me a lack of understanding when it comes to how a Guild should interact with the community. If the Guild is not open to new ideas, it cannot anticipate new challenges and thus it cannot adapt.

This leads to the GoG's PR. JWPlatt is right (can't believe I said that!) that the GoG needs to conduct its business in the open. This doesn't mean that the decision making process (voting on resolutions, etc.) must be open to all (though I personally feel this has worked at the GoW by way of the Representatives). Instead it means that proposals should be placed in the open and honest and frank discussions should be allowed (perhaps even allow a "Steam Room" where people can vent freely to keep from repressing tension).

The GoG's structure needs to change because the game has changed to the point where that structure is obsolete. I have said many times that I admire the GoW's lack of a rigid hierarchy and that rules are almost always made by the Guild as a whole. Regardless of that, I think the formal "training" time for Greeters needs to be replaced with something more flexible. The Guild's Cyan sanction has long meant more strict requirements in order to keep troublemakers from becoming part of the Guild (why do I think I would never become a Greeter?). In contrast with that, the Cyan sanction has also made the GoG a major draw for new players who want to help out. This creates a very bad mix... a strong desire and a strict test. Those that succeed are likely to either sign with relief or feel superior to others. Those that fail are likely to sigh with resignation, get dejected and leave, or become violently opposed to the Guild itself. I believe the Guild needs to embrace all people and promote people based on positive feedback. No test administered by anyone can weed out all the "bad apples" the first time around. The only reasonable solution is to let the people a Greeter interacts with rate them and leave comments. You could keep a running tally of the "Five Star Greeters" if you'd like. People who felt they had a bad experience or worse those who were abused by a Greeter could have an outlet for their frustration. It certainly isn't perfect, but I consider it better than one run through a "gauntlet."

Finally, the organization of Greeters needs to change. There is, from what I've heard, a timetable that Greeters sign up on and register their time. While arguably necessary to keep the cavern full of Greeters, I'm not convinced this could not be similarly addressed by using observations (or OH's stats? Not sure) to determine "busy times" and encourage would-be Greeters to help out at those times. The present system sounds to me like the whole "clocking into work" routine.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:40 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Williamsburg VA, KI 02598680
As a returning "newbie", I would like to comment on my experience with the GoG bevin, on the whole, when it is populated, I have always received polite and enthusiastic greetings and answers or suggestions for any questions or problems I am having. If the Greeter has a number of folks to deal with, it can take a few moments before they get to you; but if they do not immediately respond to you, they may well be speaking privately to someone and not want to reveal "spoilers" to those that have not reached that part of their Cavern exploration, and will get to you in a few moments. If it has been long enough, send out your query again, as I am sure the Greeter cannot continuously scroll up and down his KI chat log looking for which questions he hadn't gotten to yet, while a few more piled up. Of course, when it is slow that is not a problem.

I have never once been ignored, and really like the way my visits to the GoG bevin have been. On the few occasions that I went to the GoG bevin and found it unpopulated, I went to the city and found help there. I also peruse their Guild web page and links often.

The workings of committees, in this case Guilds, specifically, the Guild of Greeters, consisting of volunteers with real life obligations and needs complicates issues from an organizational viewpoint, and those members that cannot be counted on to do what they agreed to do when they agreed to do it is an issue that many volunteer organizations deal with.

In terms of retaining new players, I think the GoG helps significantly, as will the New Player Explorations on the weekends...

I am wondering if moving the GoG bevin to the top of the Nexus list can be done by a non Guild member, I always sort by population the public links to see what is going on, but of course a very fresh newbie would not know to do this. If so, Robyn, PM me instructions and I can do that when I am exploring.

Thanks for everyone's heartfelt discussions, and I am so glad ya'll are here to make my experience even more enjoyable.

Go Pack Go!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 140
I may have missed some things throughout this discussion, and being a newbie relative to the GoG I may have no room to talk. But the issue seems awfully simple to me. The Guild of Greeters simply doesn't have enough active members. There's nothing wrong with structure or politics, there is just an absence of anyone doing anything.

As for the Guild being "closed" to new membership, I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure there is still an inexhaustable box of Guild t-shirts in Kirel. I have seen nothing in the Cavern restricting membership, so what is to stop myself an others from putting on a shirt and hanging out in the GoG Hood? If the current members have lost interest or no longer have the time to devote to it, it is time for new members.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: