Quote:

I started the Idea of a kick function in the "Ignore = inaudible … and invisible?" post and was told I couldn't discuss it there. Marten started the "to kick or not to kick" post the next day and now I'm told I can't post there. So I'll try to start my own post and will probably be told I can't post here.

I'll start off with a reply I had to tommyap

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I should have posted here earlier , but was somewhat preoccupied by another tread
I have a big problem with hood-kick , to clarify please consider the following scenario :

Player A creates A's Hood and starts recruiting members . A picks new players only . A acts friendly , helpfull and cooperative towards every new member for weeks . A's Hood grows . Slowly and insidious , player A spreads disturbing rumours concerning several non-members . A offers support and justification for actions against these players . Over time player A isolates most if not all A's Hood members from the community as a whole . Player A erodes several hood members self-confidence by alternating between compliments and sarcastic remarks justified by clever pseudo-logic reasoning , strengthening A's authority . At some point B ( member of A's Hood ) questions a rumour or A's authority . B becomes the target of sarcasme and innuendo instigated by A and A's lackeys . persists . A threatens to evict B from A's Hood . B knows that A can actually do this , and if ... B would lose his/her neighbors and , not surprizing , most buddies all at once . B also knows the consequences of ending up at the receiving end of A's wrath for having taken part in or witnessing group-griefing by A's Hood members in the past . B has little option but succumb to A's authority completely , or leave the game .

This is a very dark scenario , but is it unrealistic ?
No it is not . This discribes precisely the way bullies operate . Creating the ability to evict , grants as well as justifies authority to hood-creators over hood-members . This WILL be used/abused by every bully in the game . It is naive to asume otherwise . It is naive to asume there are no bullies in the game .
I vote against hood-kick .

tommyap

So to answer your question, At some point B ( member of A's Hood ) questions a rumour or A's authority, B ( a member of A's Hood ) confronts A. A threatens to evict B from A's Hood . B knows that A can actually do this. B (a member that does not cause trouble in A's Hood) tells the other good members of A's Hood what A is doing. B and the other members of A's Hood that know B's not a troublemaker go and start their own Hood. B (and the members of B's new Hood) take on new members and use the /kick function whenever A tries to come into and cause trouble in B's new and fun Hood, and they all live happily after ever. And A knowing that he can no longer trouble B or B's Hood members, quits the game and becomes an Attorney.

My question to you would be, why would you want to stay a member of A's Hood? The answer is quit simple, as in the real world you should take some responsibility and take care of yourself. Start another Hood and take the people who are not causing trouble with you. What your missing is you don't have to be in a Hood that has members who are bulling you. I belong to one of the most popular and successful Hoods in the game, and have from the start. We've been together well over a year and a half. We take on new members all the time. We are very careful who we allow to become members or visitors and keep our Hood on private, and all has been working great. We don't want to keep our Hood on private, but because we don't have a /kick function yet we have no other choice. But if there ever comes a time that the wrong person gets into our Hood we should have the power to remove that person.

If I joined a Hood with a problem as described by tommyap I would simply quit. But that's not what were talking about here, were talking about good well run Hoods that need a way to deal with griefers if one should get into our Hoods. This /kick function would in most cases be used on griefers visiting and disrupting the good people of the game.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "If only the owner has the power to kick people from his Hood then how can a griefer affect me other then to kick or ban me from his Hood? Do we care?"

rocketdog

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What you are missing is the fact that every day people get entrapped by bullies , despite the fact there was a way out before . There is no way you can keep this kick function exclusivly avallable to *good* hood owners . You may think it can not happen to you . Ok lets take that as fact : In this case you would recognize the pattern and know i have a good point here , Since you do not see this , i can only assume you would in reality not be able to see the pattern , and therefore be vulnerable to the very thing i am discribing . The kick ability would be both a carrot ( exclusive hood ) as a stick to batter members into submission . It may not happen in your hood , but it will happen somewhere , i bet my right hand it will . On a side note i am 52 years old , could it be that i have a bit more life experience than you do ?

Quote:

What you are missing is the fact that every day people get entrapped by bullies , despite the fact there was a way out before . There is no way you can keep this kick function exclusivly avallable to *good* hood owners . You may think it can not happen to you . Ok lets take that as fact : In this case you would recognize the pattern and know i have a good point here , Since you do not see this , i can only assume you would in reality not be able to see the pattern , and therefore be vulnerable to the very thing i am discribing . The kick ability would be both a carrot ( exclusive hood ) as a stick to batter members into submission . It may not happen in your hood , but it will happen somewhere , i bet my right hand it will . On a side note i am 52 years old , could it be that i have a bit more life experience than you do ?

tommyap

I am 64 years old and I will soon be 65 I was born on March 27 1947. So no you do not have more life experience then me, but I don't think that has anything to do with it. I have worked as a designer and engineer all my life and have never been a fan of "It cant be done". The wright brothers should have never made a flying machine because they new it would crash eventual. But they did and then they and others fixed the problems one by one until they now have the safest form of transportation in the world.

Still not one person including you has answered my question, "If only the owner has the power to kick people from his Hood then how can a griefer affect me other then to kick or ban me from his Hood? Do we care?"

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I think the issue in Tommyap's situation is not being removed from the hood. It is being ostracized from a social group that you've come to feel a strong attachment towards, and the threat of "violence" in the form of griefing by that group. Even without a /kick, the less-than-wonderful people of that group could still cause just as much emotional harm to the free thinker through other methods of making him feel unwelcome. The group could just as easily grief this person in other ways and treat him like an outsider even though he still has an active hood book.

I don't believe adding a hood /kick adds any additional potential to hurt anybody.

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MOULagain KI #: 66990

When I was your age, we rocket-jumped up hill both ways in boiling lava.

PaladinOfKaos,

You are 100% correct.

rocketdog

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I agree with most of the above apart from the ( denied) fact that hood-kick most certainly add potential for griefing as of yet unavailable .

1) Having the hood-kick function would allow the owner to individualy and exclusively choose new members , create some
sort of bogus evaluation procedure for reasons of control , but sold as measure to keep the hood exclusive/special , and
have the means to ENFORCE it ( not available today )
As a result of this , the owner would not only be able to claim fictional authority , but in FACT have it .

2) The hood-kick function would not effect the owner in any noticable way . It would effect the kicked person . ( not available
today )

3) The hood-kick function can be used without any other interaction between the two at any given time . Rendering the
kicked person completely defenseless . ( not available today )

4) The hood-kick function , would empty the kicked person's neighbor-list , effecting this persons means of
comminication directly . ( not available today )

5) The hood-kick function , would remove the kicked person from all his/her ( former ) neighbors neighbor-lists
effecting every members means of communication directly . ( not available today )

Do you truly , honestly and sincerely WANT a function that grants the privilege to oust a hood member , who would lose contact with all his/her ( former ) neighbors as well as the community he/she was a member of ?
A community that the kicked person may have seen as a second home ?
To give that tool in the hands of every would-be tyrant , who can use it for whatever reason , scheme , whim or otherwise ?
A tool that can be used at any time of the tyrants choice , under any pretext imaginable ?
On the odd chance that this function *might be usefull* in some , as of yet , undifined circumstance , that may occur at some point in the future ?
A circumstance that may never occur at all ?
An extreme measure that can only be justified in circumstances that would justify banning ?
A system already in place , with the additional benefit of being under the control of a third , independant party ?
A party that would examine the case as impartial as no concerned party ever could ?

DO YOU NOW

Lacking any need for implementation of this function , in combination with the very real potential for abuse , my point still stands .

ps: @ rocketdog : I have dealt with bullies of every description , from the relatively benign to narcistic predators from early childhood onward . I may be biased . Asuming greater common-knowledge in case of this type of behaviour than can be expected realisticly . Duly noted .

i would just like to say that adding a Kick Function to URU is a horrible idea... 'specially when your dealing with griefers trolls etc etc... they willl abuse the Kick system.

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Forever Forsaken
Episode One: And Their Walls Did Crumble

KI #12987306

tommyap,

You and I can go back and forth about this and it will do no good. What I've said to you before and will say again is if I am kicked out of a Hood that is run by a griefer or a group of griefers why would I care. If there are any people in that Hood that are truly my friends they will come with me. There is nothing more too say on this matter.

Your opinion is that if you are being griefed you still should stay and put up with it. My opinion is, start your own Hood and your friends will fallow. We will never agree on this but I must say to you, if you have been bullied as much as you say you have, you might have brought some of it on yourself by not separating yourself from the bullies. But as PaladinOfKaos said this has nothing to do with the /kick function.

gmz1023

You are just another person who has not thought this through. You have not stated anything that tells me how they will grieve us. Normally when you discuss something like this you give a reason why you take a certain stand. Saying that the griefers will use it against us is a nonsensical statement with no substance.

Please tell me how this statement is wrong. "If only the owner has the power to kick people from his Hood then how can a griefer affect me other then to kick or ban me from his Hood? Do we care?" I will add to this I would love it if a griefer would /kick me from his Hood!

I may not agree with tommyap but at the very least he put some thought into his statement.

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tommyap,

By the way I think you should come and visit us at our Hood and find out how a good Hood is run. We have people from all walks of life and from all over the world. People with mental handicaps, physical handicaps and speech impediments. We are also a Hood that takes children in and we shield them as much as we can from the griefers. But the one thing you won't find in our Hood are griefers! Why you ask? Because we don't put up with them. We screen all potential members and vote as a Hood to accept or reject them. If visitors cause trouble in our Hood or anywhere in game their invite is revoked. We found it necessary to shield ourselves from the mess that this game is becoming by placing our Hood on private, which is not what we wanted to do. In spite of this we are one of the most active, if not the most active Hoods in game.

Just come into the game PM me and I'll send you an invite. We may not agree but that doesn't mean we cant be friends.

rocketdog (2285131)

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You continue to miss , disregard or choose to obscure several relevant issues rocketdog .

This game is played by all kinds of people , emotionaly sturdy as well as vulnerable/delicate , self-asured as well as uncertain , intellectualy agile as well as less so , fiercely independant as well as easely swayed , able to resist peer-pressure and conditioning alike or highly vulnerable to both , grandparents as well as children , men and women , boys and girls , from every walk of life . How each and every single one of them would ( or should ) respond , react or feel when being hood-kicked will , without a doubt , be quite differen than how YOU would , for the simple reason they are not rocketdog . Since there is no reason , rationale nor requirement to be or become a rocketdog-clone , your presumed ( for reasons that it has not hapened yet , so how would you know ) reaction to being hood-kicked is completely irrelevant in this instance . I suggest you weigh that fact .

You seem to asume that all neighbors of the hood-kicked person would by default be aware this has hapened imediatly and disregard other options . I have several questions for you to mull over .
1) Do you put every single friend , who hapenes to be a neighbor as well , on your budy-list ?
2) Do you check for possible mutations in your neighbor-list each and every time you log in , in order to check for possible mutations that may have occured during your absence ?
3) Would you necessarily be aware of mutations taking place while you ar on-line , asuming the hood-kicked neighbor is not ?
4) Do you keep and maintain a back-up list of all your friends-neighbors as well as all your non-friend-neighbors at all times ?
5) Do you reguraly cross-reference your back-up list with your current neighbor-list to double-check for mutations you might have missed ?
6) Can you be absolutely certain that you will detect mutations in your neighbor-list immediately as it hapenes , even when you are off-line ?
7) Do you have equipment or soft-ware installed or other means in place , to be able to differentiate between hood-kick induced mutations in your neighbor-list versus mutations occuring for other reasons or by other means , either informing you in real-time or at a later date , independant of information received from third parties ?
Can you contact all your neighbors by e-mail or otherwise out of the game ?
9) Can each and every one of your neighbors contact you by e-mail or otherwise out of the game ?
10) Can you be absolutely certain you would be able to contact any neighbor disapearing from your neighbor-list , to inquire the reason for this occurance , taking into account that a hood-kicked person may leave the game imediatly after , and may refuse to speak with you and every other member of your hood because of it ?
11) Can you prevent the owner of your hood to use hood-kick ?
12) Can you be absolutely certain that each and every one of your neighbors can truthfully answer all previous questions with a definate yes ?
13) Can you truthfully answer all previous questions ( including 12 ) with a definate yes ?

If there is even one of the above questions you can not truthfully answer with yes , you will not be able to detect abuse of hood-kick in your hood in every case ( except when you are the owner ) . If there are several questions above that you can not truthfully answer with yes , you would not be able to detect abuse of hood-kick in your hood in most if not all cases ( except when you are the owner ) . You have no means to detect hood-kick abuse in any but your own hood other than hearsay

I do not in any way dictate how any-one should respond to being bullied .

I do not in any way dictate how any-one should respond to being hood-kicked , like you do with some force , and never will .

The victim of bullying is NEVER responsible and can NEVER be held accountable for being victimized . To suggest such a thing is deceitfull or at best naive .

My past is irrelevant for as far as my reasoning is concerned .

The way you disregard gmz 1023's post is highly distastefull . You can not know what thought has gone into that statement . What you are doing here is bullying .

I hapen to belong to another *old* hood that has been prominentely and continuously present in the Nexus list throughout MOULagain . There are no visible or audible leaders in that hood . There is no hierarchy and every-one is welcome in principle . Every member can bring in new members of their own choice , and are allowed to do so . In other words there is TRUST . We have had no problem with griefers in our hood since MOULagain is on-line that i am aware of . ( i asume i would )

I would advice against having a evaluation-commission in hoods on general principle . Such authority would act as a bully-magnet to infiltrate , manipulate , convert , and used to advance the bullies agenda . The choice is offcourse to the members of that hood to decide . This is however off-topic so i will keep it at that .

I have noticed some disturbing trends in your posts . You have so far not offered a SINGLE well thought-out cardinal argument for the need nor desireability of hood-kick , despite the fact i have asked for it several times . You are arguably strongly in favour of hood-kick but fail to offer ANY explanation even marginaly informative to the why of that . Again despite the fact i have asked for it seceral times . There are numerous questions that demand answering brought up by me in my earlier posts . You have cleverly circumvented EVERY crucial issue and concern , while going to some lenght and considerable eloquence into the trivial and/or indeed the irrelevant . In other words , you are burrying some rather serious issues under the carpet , without offering an explanation or rationale for doing so . You are bullying gmz1023 for no apparent reason ( apart from agreeing with me ) . Have you some-how obtained the occult talent te determine how much thought has gone into that short statement of opinion ? In reality that statement offers no clue how gmz1023 has arrived at that opinion AT ALL . You even dare to not only challenge but JUDGE gmz's intelligence as below parr ( in your opinion ) , if that would be relevant to begin with , and utterly discredit/disregard gmz1023 by doing so . You have no right , justification or even a reasonable motive to pound gmz1023 in the dust like that . I resent it . Your efforts to obscure and circumvent the concerns i brought up are deceitfull and manipulative in my opinion . I will not sit idle or accept this , and i am not giving up or cower untill i get some answers . My previous post boiles down to a fairly simple question :
* Do you desire this un-needed , loathsome , perverse , designer bully-toy so bad , that you would even risk exposing yourself as a consumate bully , in your eager pursuit to get it ?*
I did not expect any-one with some measure of common sence would answer that question with a whole-hearted YES . I asumed that if any-one had what-ever other motive to be in favour of hood-kick would AT LEAST very....very carefully examine my questions and concerns , comming up with some SERIOUSLY PRESSING and IMPRESSIVE arguments to support it , or change their minds . I read your post as a cleverly obtuse YES rocketdog .

On a side note : I am not interested in any formalized offer of friendship from any-one , most often than not , that offer is false , as well as it is one recognizable indicator of a bully trying to real you in . I do not choose my friends by any means . I prefer to rely on the messy , wan-ton emergence of unexpected mutual sympathy that may seem in-efficient to you , but works remarkably well . I have yet to discover any endearing qualities , that would peek my interest , in you , so i choose to decline .

I have read the forum for a long time, but have not been a member of the forum for very long.
I, as a female, have been harassed many times by the same persons online.
And no I am not a prude. They change their names more often than I can count.
How would you like it if you are helping someone with the game in someone elses age, and they start using their mike
and verbally sexually talking with you?
It happens. Believe it.
The harasssment is not just standing in your avvie for long periods of time, but using their microphone and yelling different
things including words of filth.
They also PM you and talk of things that I would never imagine would be spoken to anyone.
I have received many PMs with sexual overtones.
I don't even know these people. Yes, I put them on my ignore list, but that does not keep them from standing in your avvie or
someone elses.
Then they change their names and come back. These griefers love it, and until we come up with something to stop it,
I agree with Rocketdog. Hit ignore and they disappear from my sight.
Simple remedy.....Ignore and I don't see them, hear them or have to read their filth.

tommyap,

I am very sorry but you keep telling me I'm not getting it and you are very very wrong, I am. Did you read Nicoleleigh post? This is what griefer or bullies do. You cannot hide your head in the sand and stop bullies. It just doesn't work. You and I have a fundamental difference, you think by doing nothing the bullies will not be able to bother you or will bother you less. I think when you punch a bully in the nose he stops being a bully.

I've been thinking about this /kick thing for over a year now and not one person has been able to answer the simple question which I won't mention to you again because you obviousness are not going too answer it either. I know the reason no one has answered it including you, and you should also understand why no one has answered it, but you don't. So what more can I say to you other then when people come into your Hood and bully you, remember you didn't want to try and stop it.

One more thing I'll say, if I'm wrong the server side /kick from Hood function can be removed and the bullies have nothing more then they have now. If you are wrong you will go on being bullied when you could have had a fix.

rocketdog

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Nicoleleigh,

Come and visit us we are able to for the most part to stop the griefers. They go away very mad if they enter our Hood and we are looking for people who the griefers are bothering. Unlike many of the other people in this game we fight back.

Come and visit you'll like it we have many good people.

rocketdog ( 2285131 )

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@ Nicoleleigh: I know very well what you are talking about . The disappearance of an unusual number of female buddies and children from the game had me worried long before i knew the likely reason for it . I knew there was something a-foot , but i could not put my finger on it , untill a buddy finaly did tell me what was going on . Some of the nicest , friendliest people i have met in URU are thinking about leaving , or have already done so . Most of them are female . ResEng M
Dogherra is doing the best he can , but he needs solid evidence in the form of a chat-log in order to prevent banning someone on false accusations or wrong assumptions . I can give you his ID number if you want . His effort is not enough . I know that . the ignore function does not do quite wat it should . I know that too . To make matters a bit more complicated is the fact that there are several somewhat arrogant veterans in the game , who do not show the patience towards newbees one might expect . Using ignore willy-nilly to shut them up when a newbee question is *inconvenient* at that particular moment , without showing the newbee the decency to tell them why . A shortcut-key , sending the default message *sorry , i am busy at the moment , i will be back with you later* in combination with clicking on that name , and some sort of reaction-pending-list would make some difference , That is however off-topic , so i keep it at that . ( note to myself : put this proposal forward soonish ) A perfect solution to the very serious problem you mentioned will never be found , but , mutual invisibility in its entirety would go a long way in that direction . ( as you can see in that thread ) Work is underway to create that . I do however not believe that hood-kick would . Please take in account that it would not only effect you and the offender , but others as well . The fact that it could be used out of arrogance on top of everything else i have been going on about ( and could continue to do , page after page ) in much the same way ignore is used now , or better yet misused by people who do not even seem to realize they are hurting people for no reason whatsoever . There is no way to prevent hood-kick being used in the same way , making the griefing situation a lot worse than it already is . I hope you will think about that possibility long and hard .
The only good advice i can give you in the current situation is this :
Complain as publicly as you can , as loud as you can . Describe what has hapened as detailed as you can , to every-one there. To all your buddies and every-one else . Do NOT isolate yourself for shame or any other reason by keeping quiet EVER . People will try to comfort you and offer what support they can and you will make more friends in the process . Use startlog in situations that may develop badly always . Report what has hapened , including the chat-log to Cyan , as well as the forums .

@ rocketdog : In one thing you are absolutely right . I am indeed unable to answer a question you do not ask . Well done . bravo But what is your point exactly ?
You show no signs of having *thought it out* at all .
You have yet to come up with a single valid argument .
You have yet to start tackling mine .
You continue with the same pseudo-logic crap you started out with .
You lie about the consequences being nothing to worrie about .
You claim you see evidence that i am not interested in solving griefer problems , while my posts in this thread as well as my posts on the mutual invisibility thread sufficiantly show that i do . So that is your second lie in one post .
I think that your attempt to apropriate Nicoleleigh's post to advance your own ends , without showing any sign of offering support or advice to be rather distastefull .

On a side note : Lobbying for extreme measures for *obvious* reasons is one of the trademarks of the very people you should be most worried about .

tommyap wrote:

ResEng M Dogherra is doing the best he can , but he needs solid evidence in the form of a chat-log in order to prevent banning someone on false accusations or wrong assumptions .

I am sorry but chatlogs are not "solid evidence". Who validates the chatlog?

ResEng M Dogherra has to witness the offence in person in order to prevent banning someone on false accusations or wrong assumptions.

So called chatlogs have been abused in the past.

Chatlogs can be a good start for a ResEng to work with but they are still hearsay to be proven in person.

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semplers' shards