I don't post very often for many reasons, which I am not going into.
I have gone into the city many times, in the day and evening.
I have seen some of the griefers online. The majority of the time, they are just runnning through avvies, jumping around, etc.
Yes, I have gotten personal messages from a few that were a little risque. To call them degenerates, is a little harsh, I think.
I truely believe that the offenders are one and the same. They could be kids doing it, male or female.
I have to admit it does get aggrevating, but I just go to a different part of the city, do marker games and visit with others.
I have even seen avvies stay in the city next to the map just watching the offender do what they do. Why do they just stand there? The griefers are a pain, but I don't see a big increase, but I may miss them.
Not that my opinion means a lot, but charging a fee to join the game and having a "king" be in charge of our beloved city is not a good thing. How many times have I paid big bucks to see a movie and it turned out to be a bad movie? I still go back.
We need to start donating more and giving the people in charge the power to do what they do best.
Send in the info for them. Let them take care of it.
I say no to a "fee" and no to a "king" of the city.
Shorah and now.....let us URU.

rocketdog wrote:

No one has come back to me willing to pay me $10:00 for every time I say they are banned from the game. So I take it that we all now agree making degenerates pay would work...

Proof by lack of evidence? I think not. How this transformed into the use of the word 'degenerates' bothered me a little, but I didn't know why. This questionable logic has my spidey sense tingling. The 50s are calling - it's Senator McCarthy on the line.

This is going a bit circular. Tomala and Marten already said it best in response. You have a response from Chogon and the QC/CS Manager at Cyan Worlds stating their serious position of zero-tolerance on the issue and encouraging talk about it. You continue unconvinced despite their word that they do take action when it's reported to them. Awareness has been raised, so you did good there. Now we know what to do and how to do it so that it will be taken seriously by everyone and will not continue to be under-reported. If anyone does not know how to use the support ticket system, there are plenty of us who can help them use it. There have been tutorials posted. Perhaps they need to be made more obvious. It is counterproductive to beat up Cyan further for not listening when they obviously are and have responded. Something more productive, just for example as a start - if you would like to champion the cause - is to find or create these tutorials if they can't be found or do not esist, and make sure it happens. That would be doing something.

_________________
OpenUru.org: An Uru Project Resource Site : Twitter : Perfect Speed Is Being There.

Rocketdog wrote:

This argument is ludicrous

Yes it is.

Quote:

and placing the blame on me and people like me...

No one is blaming you, Rocketdog. People know that what you're suggesting isn't going to help and that to persist in these discussions only gives griefers more reason to persist in their misbehavior.

Quote:

What I would like to know is how long will it take for people to understand that just placing a bandage on a compound fracture will never work under any condition.

Let's see... um... four weeks. No, six weeks, seven hours and forty two minutes.

Quote:

But as I said before I think the degenerates will just come back as soon as they make a new avatar.

HERE is the basis for the entire issue. HERE is where the problem lies. If anyone's got any solid ideas to mend this problem then I'm all ears. The great thing about Open Source is that people can tend to these issues and resolve them...

... but nothing anyone has ever suggested will ever fix anything... maybe a couple dozen or so more threads on this same subject and we'll finally have an answer?

Quote:

Someone said “if we have an initial charge to get into the game some people will never join the game.” That’s true, but how many who have joined the game have already quit the game because of the degenerates?

That is no justification or excuse. That is letting these "degenerates" get to us.... those who helm these discussions are the ones who have sadly fallen victim to that. And, in fact, it's not the griefers who have been responsible for me having spent less time in URU lately, it's the constant talk about them...

It is also unfair to well meaning, respectable individuals who are only looking to experience URU in a friendly, respectable manner. Making everyone pay for entry is to make everyone a victim of the griefers... and it will solve nothing.

Quote:

No one has come back to me willing to pay me $10:00 for every time I say they are banned from the game. So I take it that we all now agree making degenerates pay would work

No one has taken you up on that offer because people know it won't prove a thing... nobody owes you money just to prove your point either.

Quote:

If the people who object to this post would use as much brain power ...

That sounds very low to me, Rocketdog... is it your intent to call those who oppose you on this "idiots" ?

People are stupid. Can we move on with life now?

_________________

AdamJohnso wrote:

People are stupid. Can we move on with life now?

Second that.

Victor Hugo wrote:

A fixed idea ends in madness or heroism.

*****
While the above is very appropriate for reaching a solution on how to the handle the griefers, regarding the current state of the discussion itself, I wholeheartedly agree with Hoikas.

In my honest opinion, there needs to be less focus on the criticism, and more on the construction of a workable solution to the problem, please.

_________________
KI# 14883206 | "The truth speaks for itself, I am just the messenger." -Lyta Alexander

(Nevyn's Note: Any comments or opinions, taken whole or in part, are mine and do not reflect the stance of GoMe.)

Quote:

In my honest opinion, there needs to be less focus on the criticism, and more on the construction of a workable solution to the problem, please

.

Seconded, as well, I suppose...

but what we don't need is everyone and their uncle throwing out the first idea that comes to mind. informed ideas are a necessity. look at what others have done before, what has worked, what hasn't, and what has blown up in people's faces...



any ideas must also fit within the limitations that are imposed, which are considerable. and any solution must be elegant, not overworked or convoluted.... brainstorming has a basis in logic, not emotional or gut responses or "guess work"

this isn't easy people... this is like trying to make everybody "play nice" in a day... and it shouldn't be a trivial matter...

Main_Avvie wrote:

...we don't need is everyone and their uncle...

I'm an uncle, but oh well...

JWPlatt wrote:

Now we know what to do and how to do it so that it will be taken seriously by everyone and will not continue to be under-reported. If anyone does not know how to use the support ticket system, there are plenty of us who can help them use it. There have been tutorials posted. Perhaps they need to be made more obvious. ... Something more productive, just for example as a start - if you would like to champion the cause - is to find or create these tutorials if they can't be found or do not exist, and make sure it happens.

What about that constructive idea?

Nicely formatted, clearly labeled, and attractive graphics with simple, concise instructions on how to report any problem, including griefing. 1-2-3-done. Posted in the Resource section. Is anyone, including rocketdog, up to doing that?

_________________
OpenUru.org: An Uru Project Resource Site : Twitter : Perfect Speed Is Being There.

On the WoW server I play on there is a person who pays for a subscription on World of Warcraft to talk about his "interlocking plastic blocks" (Seriously, not joking here).

While I haven't been victim of a lot of griefing in WoW I don't believe this is because you have to pay for your account. It's the fact that indirect you are paying for CSRs. The thing is even if MOULa had a subscription/pay either /a lot/ of people need to suddenly sign up for Cyan to be able to afford CSRs*. Or the price has to be high which would discourage griefers...and players.

I still vote for ignoring griefers.

*Customer Service Representative

_________________
It's a video game...

JWPlatt wrote:

What about that constructive idea?

Nicely formatted, clearly labeled, and attractive graphics with simple, concise instructions on how to report any problem, including griefing. 1-2-3-done. Posted in the Resource section. Is anyone, including rocketdog, up to doing that?

Your idea does sound reasonable to me. Perhaps GoMe could also add a special ki-mail to the ones the Cavern Criers carry for our encounters with new explorers? A "hope you never have to use this, but....", so to speak.

The GoMe team will have to discuss this, of course. (And someone will have to forward the tutorial to me, so I can create said ki-mail.) This may be only a small step in educating people to their "cavern rights" and in solving the problem. But, that being said, every project must start somewhere.

One last thought occurred to me. A person made a comment about Cyan's "lack of attention". However, Chogan and others have recently stated they will take these matters very seriously. Whether they may or not have in past is not mine to judge. I wasn't there for those events. I do feel I must ask the community to "give them a chance" to honor this renewed committment.

We have shown our faith in both Uru and the Cavern itself by keeping the Cavcon at "decent" levels. We also proven there is genuine interest in keeping Uru alive by the creation of updates and improvements to game itself. The community has shown we wish to be here, doing our part to keep the cavern alive in the hearts and minds of all those who dwell within it.

We must trust in Cyan to do the same in return, even if Uru is not a "primary" project of their staff. We must trust they operate in "good faith" with us, until it is proven otherwise. A system only works if a person avails oneself by using it. Work with Cyan and the various groups involved in "Open Uru" by helping create things like the aforementioned Tutorial. Then, wait a bit to see if things improve in some way over the next few weeks and months by doing as Cyan suggests. It may not be the best solution, or one that will make make everyone happy, but at least it "charts the way forward" until something better in developed. So, I implore the community to take this "leap".

I leave you now with quotes from a MYST, BOOK OF ATRUS on page 281:

"What do you see, Atrus?"

"I see stars, Grandmother. A great ocean of stars...."

_________________
KI# 14883206 | "The truth speaks for itself, I am just the messenger." -Lyta Alexander

(Nevyn's Note: Any comments or opinions, taken whole or in part, are mine and do not reflect the stance of GoMe.)

Hmmm... some have said the real problem with banning in a game like MOUL is that the griefer can just make up a new account and continue to make trouble. The real answer would be to somehow be able to identify the griefer no matter how many accounts they make and keep the ban going , which would result in a true permaband. Perhaps we could take a cue from the software companies who tie their software to a particular computer to prevent theft> Could it somehow be possible to associate an Avatar with some kind of code that is derived from the particular hardware inside the users PC? This way the code would not change even across multiple accounts, and make it harder for someone to get back into the game -- this system would of course be limited to the fact that the computer hardware is the same, but I can't really see someone getting a new hard drive / CPU / memory every time they create a new account... and this would, in a way, be the same as requiring a 'fee', only the griefer would be paying it to their local computer reseller to install new hardware, thereby generating business for their community - and it would be a heck of a lot stiffer than a ten dollar fine. Of course, Cyan HQ would need to be in charge of this system, as I could see placing fans in the catbird seat could possibly generate a whole different set of problems...

_________________
Mac - MOULagain KI#00004826
In the interests of the environment, this post has been constructed entirely from recycled electrons.

Nev'yn wrote:

JWPlatt wrote:

What about that constructive idea?

Nicely formatted, clearly labeled, and attractive graphics with simple, concise instructions on how to report any problem, including griefing. 1-2-3-done. Posted in the Resource section. Is anyone, including rocketdog, up to doing that?

Your idea does sound reasonable to me. Perhaps GoMe could also add a special ki-mail to the ones the Cavern Criers carry for our encounters with new explorers? A "hope you never have to use this, but....", so to speak.

The GoMe team will have to discuss this, of course. (And someone will have to forward the tutorial to me, so I can create said ki-mail.) This may be only a small step in educating people to their "cavern rights" and in solving the problem. But, that being said, every project must start somewhere. / ... /

I leave you now with quotes from a MYST, BOOK OF ATRUS on page 281:
"What do you see, Atrus?"
"I see stars, Grandmother. A great ocean of stars...."

So far the BEST idea of all suggested to come forth in this topic!

What is worse than misinformation [spreading mere hearsay, unconfirmed rumours and such] .. ? NO Information At All!

I'm not fond of preaching .. And it would *feel* like such if we started to do it in the City to all New Players. Stating that
*You Can .. become a Victim of This and That while trying to enjoy this Game!* But the thought have crossed my mind.
As we do meet [and greet] new players in the City almost on daily basis. But that might get a totally opposite effect!
Scare and upset people instead ... That we Do Not want to do I'd think?

BUT. A thoroughly thought out KI-Mail sent to EVERY New Player might be a good way to Inform! What to do *IF* and
how to act or who to turn to.

And true, Nev'yn. There are *Lots of Stars* out there ... Don't let [a mere] one or two Black Holes darken our view!

/ Max /

_________________

/NoorMax KI #04327492/Skydiver Max KI #12212327/GoMe'Max KI #18395540/MO:ULa status

Mac_Fife wrote:

One thought that had crossed my mind (and I mentioned it to Chogon last night in passing) was that it ought to be possible to implement a "firewall" that blocks a user based on the client's MAC address. In the manner of poutrew's suggestion of something tied to the hardware of the PC, the MAC address is the unique, physical address of the network adapter in the client PC and is set by the equipment manufacturer (and contains a code that identifies the manufacturer, although not particularly relevant here), To all intents and purposes, it's invariant, and is often used to "node-lock" software licences to a particular PC. The MAC address is sent in every data packet as part of the Ethernet II layer, so packets from a banned MAC could simply be dropped by the filter so the server never even sees them. This could possibly be done by a front end filter/NAT router on a virtual machine without even changing the client or server code. The difficulty that I see is that you'd need to capture the MAC address of the client you wish to ban, and that's not data that is normally presented in the higher level protocols like TCP as used by MOUL, but there are ways to do it.

A more-or-less dedicated hacker CAN change his MAC address, if he has the appropriate card (I have such a card for example, just an off-the-shelf type ; I keep telling my school the filtering system they're using is inefficient, since I managed to get into their network and show them how I did it). But I guess the average griefer wouldn't bother with this. Or he could just switch computers until he's completely locked out. Just saying.

Anyway, if this type of filter were to be implemented, it could possibly be just the client sending along with all the regular data a string containing the MAC address, obtained through a system call. The firewall you mentioned would then just have to filter out addresses in the so-called "black list". This could also be implemented on the registration level, automatically preventing people who have already registered from the MAC address to change from registering. You could also pair this matching by installing a hidden cookie on their computer, adding a double protection (although if he finds it, he can just delete it; the location and name would have to change regularly in order for it to work).

_________________
Lyrositor
Explorer #16601888
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are mine only and not Guild endorsed.

“Griefers shouldn’t grief – good grief!” – quoting my dad on the issue of griefing lol.

I don’t think the 1 time payment to play is a good idea, because a lot of the oldbies – err I mean classicbies lol – have several accounts. Do you really want to make *player name withheld* pay $50+ to keep playing MOULa? I have 2 accounts, I only really use my newer one, but I like to keep my old one because a) I couldn’t have set up The Sherwood Forest’s Hood without it & b) it has sentimental value, my original MOULa avatar is on my old account. You really wanna make me pay twice to keep playing? – because even one off, I can’t really afford it.

My dad is a computer programmer with experience working on online games, so I went to my resident expert with the issue.
Now – you can’t keep griefers out by banning an IP address because, as my dad experienced while working on a football online game, IP addresses can change mid-session. He to fix the problem where some players would fall out of the game because their IP address changed while they were logged in and playing.
The MAC ban sounds like the best idea so far, but there are a couple of problems with it. First, my dad wasn’t sure if there’s privacy issues with doing this & recording people’s MAC addresses…so there might be some legal issues there. Second, was, supposing you shared a computer with your annoying little brother, who got himself banned from MOULa…that’d mean that you also now can’t play MOULa. This probably isn’t very likely to happen, so possibly not a huge issue. Next is, a griefer using an internet café creates 2 problems. He (I’m not assuming all griefers are male I’m just not typing he/she him/her every time, takes too long.) gets himself banned on one computer, he moves onto the next. Another innocent player comes along, tries to play MOULa on a computer he got banned on, and he can’t play either. Again, not very likely, but still possible. And with griefer X using a new account & computer every time he logs on, there’s no way to identify him until he goes back in game and starts griefing again, so getting banned in the first place is still dependant on the efforts of honest players sending in griefer reports…I mean eventually he’ll run out of computers, but it could still take a while. Me & my dad don’t see any way of keeping out a griefer with access to multiple computers – not without resources cyan doesn’t have anyway.
Oh & as for hacker griefers knowing ways around it anyway, I think griefers with the know-how to do that are few & far between, but I could be wrong.
An idea my dad had I thought was interesting, although ultimately not feasible, was to limit new players in the game to a certain area – ie they can’t access the whole game right away & you have to work through & play for a few hours to get to a certain status/level in the game before you can access all of it. He also then laughed because he realised this would trap griefers in with the newbies, who are the one you most want to protect.
The idea of having mail & making it easy to alert new players to griefing issues & making sure people know how to file tickets and report griefers is definitely a good idea. & filing a ticket with cyan is no more difficult than setting up an account & playing MOULa, if you can play MOULa, you can file a ticket & I don’t think we need any extra add-ons to make that easier, just my opinion.
& I’d just like to add I think I did try to e-mail support@cyan.com about something once, but I think my e-mail just got lost & I never got a reply, but when I filed a ticket about the issue I got a response within a few days.

To lighten things up a bit, the very last suggestion my dad had I thought was too funny not to share:
When a griefer comes into the game, encourage them to keep playing, meanwhile sending out a swat team…

_________________
Lady Marion - 11136990