Dear Larry,
I was afraid that Emor D'ni Lap's message would discourage you. I understand perfectly. I hope that you will find it in yourself to continue. I thank you very-very much for all you have done.

I checked out the DRA website, just the front page. I couldn't go farther. According to the page, the DRA was condescending enough to let the public in for a short time at the beginning of 2011. So, I have to withdraw my earlier expression of gratitude to him.

Emor Dn'i Lap: Lighten up, Dude!

I hope that other members of the DRA are not like Emor Dn'i Lap. Now there are a new meanings in the Dn'i Thesaurus. Under Emor D'ni Lap are now listed: .2 Party Pooper, and .3 Effete Intellectual Snob.

That is all.

Everyone, come on, let's calm down!
Remember that Uru is a game, and we're all fellow explorers here!
This is a really nice IC thread, and as is necessary with IC, discussions must arise, which can get heated (what's the point of role-playing if you can't bicker and argue? ). I don't want to take any sides here, I just want to say that there's no need to turn this into a heated debate, in my opinion. According to me, both sides might have overreacted. I'll just say what I think here, but I don't want to insult or offense anybody (everything below is my personal opinion):
1. Pictures can be taken from those "special" perspectives; IIRC, we are allowed to use special clients as long as we stay in our own instances.
2. The DRA has a right to state their opinion; if someone starts sharing information IC, it's my belief that said information can be discussed IC, so long as it stays IC (and we all remember it's just a game).
I've really enjoyed this thread, and more IC always interests me even more. Please, don't let it die in squabbles.

_________________
Lyrositor
Explorer #16601888
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are mine only and not Guild endorsed.

What you're doing is excellent, Larry, don't let this hogwash discourage you. It's not worth it.

@DLordofTime: If only I had paid attention to the ellipsis I would have realized that. My mistake.

A later entry in Sharper's journal mentions not being able to get the gun to work, then another later on says Sharper was ordered to dismantle it... yet it's still there.

Quote:

6.30.01 Gun is up. Not working but up. Laxman will have to get it working, or at least give it a shot. Not familiar enough with this kind of D'ni technology.

Quote:

11.3.01 Victor can't get to the gun for a long time. In fact, DRC wants the whole thing taken out now. Fine by me.

There are a lot of discrepancies there...

I've really enjoyed this discussion. Don't see much of this on these forums anymore these days. Makes me want to keep coming back. Thanks Larry.

C'mon, Larry! You can't leave something like this unfinished! I won't let you!

_________________
KI: 17967159

Hey larryf58,

I dont post comments often but I do read alot and I do find your thread here interesting.

I know other members come out here to read also but dont post comments like I do but in our minds we all find this intesting SO YOU do need to cheer up and keep up the good work!

No, Larry doesn't need to, but all the bellyachers need to buggar off. I would really appreciate it if he ignored them and continued anyway, though.

Hi Larry, I just wanted to let you know that I've enjoyed this thread and seeing your extraordinary pictures. I'm sure there are many others who have also enjoyed it, but not posted, so I hope you'll continue the project.

Just a reminder to everyone here: there is no IC section on this forum; they gave us the Creativity section instead for things like Larry's project which should be considered fan fiction and taken "as is." It's his journal and not up for discussion. Any IC discussion about differences of opinion or discrepancies in facts should be done on the DRC site forum in the Share Your Journey section.

_________________
OpenUru.org Minkata Test Shard is
OU-Minkata Shard Testers Guide (in laymen's terms)

Main_Avvie wrote:

Why do people have to ruin things?

Ignore them Larry. Don't give them any say in the matter.

I and others I'm sure are fascinated by your analysis and findings. Keep up the great work.quote]

I totally agree with the quote above and the other POSITIVE opinions posted in this thread by Troi, Main_Avvie, Lyrositor, DLordofTime, etc.
Tai'lahr's last post said it extremely well! Voiced what I was thinking and brought up aspects I hadn't even thought of.

TO LARRY: You are doing a great job, keep it up!!! Please don't stop.
Every time I come to the this forum, which is almost daily when possible, I always check to see what you have chosen to share with all of us. I take great pleasure in your images, especially!

To the "trough-lollys," posting what could be easily perceived as some somewhat negative opinions here and who are really "Harshing' everybody elses Buzz," I say, like some others here, " LIGHTEN UP! It's a game for goodness sake.

Something to think about:
"Narrow minded people are like narrow necked bottles. The less they have in them, the more noise they make pouring it out."

For AnneBelle:
With all due respect, to your admirable, long term dedication and involvement in all things MYST, I find I am compelled to offer the following for you to "meditate" on as well:

1. Even the "appearance" of some form of mild censorship, however subtle, is in and of itself, a very, very "slippery slope." We all need to tread most carefully in this regard.

2. No one is forcing anybody to read Larry's opinions or view his images, be they perceived by any one individual reader as opinion, speculation or stone cold facts. Speaking only for myself here, I read and view his information with pleasure. I wasn't aware that Larry had been annointed as the oracle of all things related to factual truth.

3. It's just like watching television or listening to the radio: don't like what's on?, change the channel or turn it off. It's the same with chosing to read any forum postings - if you don't like what you see or read, and you know that going in, choose to look or read something else.
However, I feel it isn't anyone else's place to tell me, by what seems to be an insistance on wanting to censor or control Larry's input, in regards to what I choose to see, or not, as the case may be. The cool, neat, groovy, bitchin', etc. "stuff" that Larry is posting, provides to those of us who make their own choice to look, a very good reason to check the forum on a regular basis.

4. All the images, that I have chosen to view, in his postings, come with a very clear "CLICK TO REVEAL SPOILER" option. To me, that means every person has a choice as to view the images or not. I will make my own decision as to what I want to see, thank you very much. If you don't like what you see, don't continue look, trying to find fault with his choice of what he chooses to share with those who are interested in his offerings. It's that simple.
If you, or any other forum visitor, doesn't want to see what he is sharing, don't click on the spoiler option.

That being said, I respect everyone elses right to their own opinions and the right to express those opinions, except where and when some would try to control other people's option to decide for themselves, whether this be the printed word, photographs, television, movies, art, porn, etc. Lighten up, people!!!
Like I usually say, "Throw it all against the wall and let's see what sticks."
Absit invidia.

_________________
"Ordinarily, I'm a wee bit insane, but I have do have some lucid moments when I'm just merely stupid."

Around MOUL in one form or another, since Jan., 2004 - current main MOULa KI # 15106455

IC

> Troi: sorry that you felt there was something rude about our posting a link to an article. By posting that link, we were not trying to direct you to the homepage of the DRA, a site that's simply been closed too long due to present-day financial limitations. When the homepage states "limited access", I believe it was intended that only portions of the DRA archives would become available in stages...rather than for any limited period of time...and even that hasn't happened yet! There's a note on the homepage from an Italian DRA member; a Google translation reads:

Quote:

Guys, you are the true nerds of the DRA, always late!
How $%&!#@!! ( long ) does it take to reopen this blessed site?

There was no condescension going on there; the whole DRA is frustrated about it!
But you're still welcome to call Emor a party-pooper and an effete snob, he doesn't mind!

OOC

> Lyrositor: Thank you! Absolutely, IC persona is IC persona only! So glad you understand.

Everyone else:
Please note that two requests were asked, civilly and politely.
No demands were made by anyone. No threats were ever made.
No one was "told" what they had to do or not do, no one was "censored" - even though such assertions are being made here.
No one ever said "you can't post those pictures because they show things that people can't see online".
These were two requests, made from an IC character.

If, as Tai'lahr suggests, it is now the stated policy of this topic that alternative opinions must never be voiced here - even if they are properly IC - then that's all I need to hear.

Emor D'ni lap

Tai'lahr wrote:

Just a reminder to everyone here: there is no IC section on this forum; they gave us the Creativity section instead for things like Larry's project which should be considered fan fiction and taken "as is." It's his journal and not up for discussion. Any IC discussion about differences of opinion or discrepancies in facts should be done on the DRC site forum in the Share Your Journey section.

It can be said the reminder/suggestion is in tune with forum policy as we can see from the fall out in this thread.

Forum Policy wrote:

<<<<snip for In-Character purposes, please create one over in the In-Character forums.
>>>>snip<<<<
In addition, members are asked to refrain from the following:
-Intentionally pushing people's buttons - yes, that means you.snip>>>>

And by the way great IC dialog. I fell for it.

_________________
semplers' shards

Shorah all,

I'm glad to see so much encouragement being offered to larryf58 here. It's very nice to know that his research is enjoyed and appreciated by others beyond myself. I've been wondering exactly what went awry here and if there's anything to be learned from it all (at least for my own future reference). The only thing I'm pretty sure about is that at least two very different frames of reference are at work which has very likely led to a great deal of poor communication. But the only frame of reference I see very clearly (naturally) is my own and larryf58's. In the end, I am simply puzzled about the nature of Emor D'ni Lap's (and presumably Annabelle's) frames of reference.

Emor has clearly put a lot of effort into his original post here, and makes some very interesting scholarly counterpoints to larryf58's Teledahn research. Additionally, here and there throughout that post, he makes reference to something he labels as the Age Writer's intentions. Since he doesn't really define what this means, I am left to guess for myself. I have no idea what Mararon did or did not intend for this Age. Particularly since the age was repurposed many times since he wrote it originally, the entire idea of understanding Mararon's original intentions for the Age seems beside the point. My own understanding of Teledahn is influenced by all the D'ni who made use of it and the relics of this varied history which we can see when visiting it today. So the idea of the Age Writer's intentions is simply quite fuzzy to me.

However, this idea of an Age Writer's original intent seems to be one of the defining aspects of Emor's own frame of reference. And he seems to feel quite clearly and strongly that anything other than this has no place in Age research or in this discussion thread. I can only suppose that whatever this is in the end to him, it defines his boundaries or extent of Age research and thus anything beyond it is out of place.

Quote:

Then as proof you show us an image supposedly taken from a vantage point unattainable from any path intended by the Writer of the Age.

Quote:

The Teledahn sun itself does not pass in front of any solid objects in the Age - as it was written.

Quote:

Likewise, you have posted images that appear to have originated from linking books originally written by the masters, but have been subsequently altered by other writers.

Quote:

If the structure is not available in the Ages associated with this forum, then we urge you to post such images at the forums that are associated with these variations on works of the original Agewriters.

Quote:

And, since you are in a sense creating a piece of D'ni history here, we ask that you exercise more care to avoid violating the intentions of - and limitations established by - the Ages' original authors.

It is all well and good to have a scope of research and a definition of what will and will not be researched. In defining what IC means to him, larryf58 explained earlier that he simply intends to explore and research everything he can manage to get to in the D'ni ages, climbing over barriers, rappelling up and down steep inclines, even using assisted viewing devices (e.g. his radio controlled airplanes) when he is unable to attain a view in other ways. These are all tools presumably once available to the DRC as well, and more likely than not made use of by them as well in their own efforts to explore and restore ages for use by the rest of us explorers. Now that the DRC are no longer performing this work, I believe there are a handful of explorers trying to replicate the DRC's still unpublished research on the Ages we have available to us. The chances are excellent that we never will be privy to this body of work by the DRC, which is a great shame. But I personally find it encouraging that there are explorers who are attempting to take up where the DRC presumably left off.

Quote:

Worse are instances where you may be using altered linking books, or altering images in order to sensationalize your findings.

From the above quote, it does not surprise me that larryf58 took offense. It reads to me that he is being accused of being a cheat and sensationalist, a pretty strong accusation to aim at a research colleague. I am quite sure that larryf58 didn't PhotoShop any of his images. I'm not sure what Emor really means by "altered linking book"--perhaps that larryf58 himself has rewritten Teledahn? Again, I'm sure larryf58 did no such thing, as he makes no pretense at being an Age Writer. I would be heartsick too being accused similarly and it saddens me to know that someone else has such a poor opinion of larryf58. So it's only natural that sharing his Age research has soured for larryf58. I do hope that he will still continue to explore the Cavern and its Ages, whether or not he shares this with any of the rest of us.

But getting back to my attempt to understand what went awry here, the best I can come up with remains the idea of different frames of reference. I still have no idea what Emor's is, only that it is quite different. I suppose it is up to Emor to enlighten me (and the rest of us) if he wishes.

In looking at Emor's post directed to me, I'd simply like to clarify that my link to an earlier part of this thread was only intended to clarify my own and larryf58's views of IC. In particular, larryf58 did a very good job of defining how he views his own research as an explorer, what his own frame of reference is in regard to exploring the Ages.

Quote:

I believe you already understand that we are not asking you to stay within the proscribed boundaries defined by the original AgeWriters - to "stay on the sidewalk" as it were - and that this issue has nothing whatsoever to do with the D'ni Restoration Council's guidelines. I think you know precisely what we refer to when we request that you not violate the intentions of those master writers by using generally unavailable points-of-view in order to invent (and then "solve") controversies by showing "flaws" that are never seen - and therefore effectively never present - in the Ages as they were written.

Here in particular Emor seems to believe I somehow understand what he's talking about and seems to be frustrated or even offended that I assumed he was simply referring to "staying on the sidewalk" as defined by the DRC's released areas of the Ages. However, the truth is that I was and remain simply puzzled. The more I read from Emor, the more obscure his frame of reference seems to be. All I can do is guess in the end.

Quote:

I would ask you to re-read the second sentence in the second paragraph of Mr. LeDeay's first post in this topic. By using the Age in ways other than as written in order to suggest normally unseen "flaws" (such as Teledahn's or Payiferen's sun), we feel this pledge has been broken.

This particular quote is a bit more revealing in that Emor states pretty clearly that he feels larrryf58 and I are exploiting something normally unseen or an Age flaw. I cannot respond to the Teledahn sun issue since I still haven't returned to the Age to see it for myself. However, I can assure Emor that even though my posted photos were from outside the Pod, the sun phenomenon can be seen clearly from the Pod windows as well (and was where I happened to be when I first noticed it during a sunrise). Thus, I do not see the Payiferen sun phenomenon as an Age flaw at all but as another interesting bit of evidence about Resiksehv as a whole and Payiferen in particular.

And this also helps to clarify part of the differing frame of reference as well, as Emor seems to feel it is unfair to reveal images from (in this instance) outside the Pod walls, that this is an exploit of the Age's flaws. To my mind, this is at odds with what he says earlier, so I can only suppose that we have widely differing frames of reference about what it means to be "off the beaten path".

So Emor, it would help me greatly if you would be willing to help me understand what "off the beaten path" does and does not mean to you (it obviously differs from what it means to me). And it would help me to understand exactly what it does and does not mean to explore the Ages IC (In Character); again your definition obviously differs greatly from what it means to me.

I do not expect that we will be in agreement (and indeed that is not the goal here). I only wish to better understand exactly where we differ. I am glad to see you are still participating in this discussion and hope to gain some insight into what appears to be a communication problem based upon some differing core assumptions/values/frames of reference.

This more recent chain of posts has all the hallmarks of communication gone terribly awry. At least in my experience on the Surface, such things typically sprout from core assumptions/values etc. that have remained unstated but are assumed to be shared and understood by all involved. So at least in learning something from all of this, I'm hoping to find out what some of these might be. I know what most if not all of mine are, but since this is already a dreadfully long post, I will wait to see if this might be a fruitful discussion before I venture further.

Many thanks to all who have participated here!

_________________

Shorah again,

Apologies for another post so soon, however, this one is on behalf of a Cavern friend, DimensionTravelerCalum, who doesn't have a forum account but who has been reading this thread regularly. I ran into him earlier today in the Cavern and agreed to help him get his thoughts posted. So read on if you wish, with the understanding that these are not my own words, but Cal's.

====

Dear DRA Rep. Emor,

First off, I'd just like to say that I have no problems with people pointing out their IC differences. And a concern I had about you posting on the forums first without going through PM first was addressed in another post. Secondly, I'd like to say that I've has a suspicion that Teledahn's sun passed infront of the rock face for years before Larry posted this picture. It's speed, coupled with my own amerature observations, always struck me as off. Some other explorers have done the math as well, saying that if either Teledahn or it's sun were moving at that speed, the Age of Teledahn would be torn apart.

But putting that aside, my main concern about all of this is the following quote:

Quote:

we stated that [Teledahn's Sun] does not do so from any vantage point available in the Age as it was written.

Now, I'd just like to point out that in the first post, you dismissed Larry's "Radiant Part of the Disk" as "Lense Flare." This is partially incorrect. The Picture you showed is indeed of lense flare, but said "lense flare" is visible with the naked eye, on the ground from any part of Teledahn, unlike actual lense flare, which only occurse with a glass lense. So, with all due respect, the "Radiant part of the disk" is not lense flare, as lense flare does not remain consistant with a moving sun like Teledahn's.

Now, considering the "industrialization" Of Teledahn, you'll have to agree with me then that the Power Scope was not a vantage point available when Teledahn was written as are the rest of the windows, telescopes, and even the slave cave tunnel walk way and stairs, all of these were added in on later dates.

Now, onto the picture.



In the picture on the panels marked 1 which were taken via the power scope, you can see the sun's 'lense flare' passing infront of the ridge in this picture here. If you zoom in, you'll see that there is a 1 (ONE) Pixel difference between the rock face and the bottom of the actual part of the sun.

This is the same for the Baron's office telescope, the panels marked 2. There is a 2 to 3 pixel diference between the ridge and the sun's bottom. Next, we move on to the panels marked 3, these were taken from ontop of Sharper's desk in the Baron's office. You'll notice there's a smaller pixel difference than with the telescope, maybe one pixel between the two edges.

Now, all this CAN be dismissed as the distance playing an optical joke on us, but... Group 4 subverts this. Group four was taken out side, on the landing outside of the slave caves, looking out over the lagoon. The Camera I was using had a clean lense and has a setting to filter out lense flare, should that ever arise.

Of Particular note is the top most 4 panel, this is something I noticed on my own observations completely by accident. Note how the "lense flare" Cuts through the rock peak. Would a sun in the acutal sky leave such an effect on the rock face? No. Also, in the other 4 panels, you can see a similar cutting effect on the original hill side in question, albeit less pronounced.

The Fact of the matter is, ignoring the original hill side entirely, this rock face that is being 'cut' through never appears anywhere where a sun is actually a part of the sky. This rock pinacle alone proves Larry's point alone. The sun passses infront of the hill behind the one that gets 'cut' through.

DimensionTravelerCalum

====

_________________

Emor D'ni Lop said:
"For instance, you posted the below Relto image. If the circled structure is available through a page in the Ages associated with this forum, please tell us the location of that page.

[picture]

If the structure is not available in the Ages associated with this forum, then we urge you to post such images at the forums that are associated with these variations on works of the original Agewriters. Posting such images in connection with scholarly research suggests that such additions are in fact the work of the original Writer, which could in turn cause explorers to feel they had searched insufficiently, failing to locate a Page that was never present at all."

Well, I don't know enough to be able to immediately post the accompanying picture.

Emor D'ni Lop, you wouldn't be a wee bit jealous, would you?

I sure would like an outhouse at my Relto, too. It's situated perfectly.

Larry, where can I get one?

Levity, folks. Levity.

Larryf58,
Please, please, please, continue the work you have been doing.
I just reviewed the body of your work again, and was struck by the uniqueness of your perspective, and the enjoyment and excitement your work has given me.
I'm hoping that the urge you had remains, and that you take up your work again, soon. I'm calling it work, but that is totally not the word for it. How can a labor of love be described in one word, especially, the word work?

As for Mor D'ni Lop I have to say that you're a bit enigmatic to me. You say that you speak for all of the DRA. Is that truly so? Are you the designated spokeman? You speak of yourself in the plural, we, in the singular, I, and the third person, Mor D'ni Lop. (I'm in a light hearted frame of mind, not a critcal one.) If it's all tenses, dare I ask, are you Legion?

A long time ago, I profoundly realized that no one is perfect. I give everybody a lot of slack, and I'm always glad that I do. I'm readily hard on myself - too much so at times. It's just that I truly don't want to cause hurt in others, nor mislead them with wrong information - I'm very sensitive in that regard. Too many times I've put my foot in it.

The Cavern and the people are always fascinating, and that includes you, Mor D'ni Lop. If I can define my approach it is an instinctual unified (theory) experience - the awe and delight of observing an ever opening flower.

So, Larry, I await the revealing of your next gem.

Dear Ainia, Calum and Troi -

Thank you for your reasoned responses!

It will be a day or two before I can find time to give each of them the reply they all deserve.

Thank you for your patience,

Emor D'ni Lap
D'ni research Association