Slightlybartfast wrote:

I wouldn't have thought they'd put their texture library up for download. lol.

Oh, I wouldn't expect them to put the entire library up. A couple key things would be nice, though ... just some of the more distinctive D'ni bits, like the images of the Great Tree or some of the D'ni numbers, maybe the shell cloth if we're allowed to use that.

That'd be all I'd be looking for.

They don't need to, if you have the right programs you can extract them from the game yourself. you'd need permisson to use them, and to be honest I dont think you'd get to use the shell cloth unless its part of a website layout or something.

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Beneath - Journey of an explorer in D'ni
UruBlogs - Blogs from Uru Explorers
Tweek@Guild of Writers - Age development Blog.

A program for Age building does not have to be integrated into Uru, just able to add things into it.

Like I initially said, with the game Neverwinter Nights, Bioware released a very versatile "level editor" designed for creating entire campaigns that could be uploaded into Neverwinter Nights and played.

This requires no modification to the game's engine, and would still extend the opportunity to create Ages to everyone.

Uru needs to be accessible, or it will die, again. Myst fans might be hardcore, but the last couple of years have shown that only a handful, worldwide, are hardcore enough to learn 3d modeling just to make Ages.

And really, it's not a question of dedication to Myst; it's a question of skill and aptitude with the software. I'm a hardcore fan, but I've had enough bad experiences trying to add content to games without premade official editors, that I refuse to try it again. Even for Uru. I have enough headaches without inviting technological disasters into my life.

Besides, think of it this way: Wouldn't limiting Age creation to those able to use such software be creating an in-game elite? Yeesha certainly wouldn't approve.

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Alec Winters KI 06399622

"History is irredeemable."
- Kain, Scion of Balance

I feel like we are running in circles here. Forgive me if I'm being upfront here or plain offtopic, but:
Just to make that clear, I don't want to ruin anyone's hope, but this is NOT going to happen.
I agree it would be great, and it would enable more people to create content, and it would draw in more people, etc etc etc. But this simply not feasible for Cyan right now; and I don't think it may be before a while.
For two reasons: first this is too long/hard to do, second this is not what Uru is about.
That is all.

For litterally years they'd said they wouldn't release any 'Age editor' or any tools; and for the last year or so, after much popular request, they've only been tentatively speaking about it. I'll be very happy (and surprised) if they even release just their 3dsMax plugin.

Doing anything close to what Spore or even Neverwinter Nights do represents tons of time and ressources. We've not talking about 6 months and a team of 8 people, more like two years and a 25 people team of coders, artists and managers to get the thing done. And right now (and for the foreseeable future) Cyan have their mind focused on something elseâ„¢.

Hopefully by the end of the year we'll all be happily partying in UruLive; anything else is a bonus.
(and yes; it's a bonus I'd love to get.. --I'd have a much easier time with Ahra Pahts )

I personally vote for just a huge library of tons of pre-fabricated 3D models to choose from and a grayscale terrain generator. I'd be happy with just that, and it wouldn't require any 3D modeling on the user's part, making it thus accessible. More advanced users can import their own 3D models, but the masses will find great use and an infinity of combinations with an object library and terrain generator.

heh never saw anyone saying they wanted age creation tools now or at launch. Just that they wanted them.

I'm really not sure why so many people are up in arms about age creation tools and why they seem to know exactly what cyan can and cannot do or won't do. I know I don't, but I'm going to let them know what I would like to see.

also there really doesnt need to be a direct link to the main story of URUlive. In all movies theres side stories and the main story. even some books have both.

look at lord of the rings or even harry potter moves and books. they have a main story and several little storys being told.

Relax, when and if cyan decides that the tools are ready or even needed they will let us know. untill then I will always let them know that atleast someone still is interested in age creation tools and not just plugins for massively expensive 3d modeling programs.

above all relax some.

Well, above all else, I think people will need to understand that fan ages are indeed unofficial storylines, and should not be considered to be “true”. I think fans should still be allowed to develop fan ages with stories, but people should just note as they’re playing them that the story is made up by a fan, and it is not official.

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Member of the AgeBuilders team

You have a good point Besharen, it would probably be a good idea to really clarify to other players which ages are offical and which ones are fan made.

Perhaps a different variation of the DRC stamp? Or maybe the author's name and KI ID# written on the inside of the cover?

I know if I was designing an age, I wouldn't want to be told that there could be no traces of anything resembling a story in it. Not that telling an elaborate story would be the first thing I would do, but still, it's nice to have options.

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Alec Winters KI 06399622

"History is irredeemable."
- Kain, Scion of Balance

goofy wrote:

atleast someone still is interested in age creation tools and not just plugins for massively expensive 3d modeling programs.

This isn't the only way to go. I'm sure many people would love to see a nicely build stand alone software to develop Ages, but as I (and other people) already said not only does it seem unlikely Cyan may do it (ressources, focus and all that) but also I don't think it is the way to go. They just need to release the 'plug in for massively expensive 3d modelling program' and let the developer community make sure it is easy and inexpensive to run. There are knowledgable people here who have the technical abilities and the time to handle this.

Cyan has next to nothing to do here but release the thing.

(I say this assuming there are no legal aspects involved in this that would slow down or otherwise complexify the whole problem)

I think Cyan should still work towards a stand alone program, as it would be the best thing for Uru in the long run, but I really can't see any reason not to release plugins for those who want them first, provided they have the ability to do so easily.

Sort of like working up towards opening Age creation to everyone a little bit at a time. As long as they are working on getting a good easy age construction kit out there, I can wait.

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Alec Winters KI 06399622

"History is irredeemable."
- Kain, Scion of Balance

Phew... thats a lot of pages to read...

I always thought that fan-created ages would be explained IC by either the explorer discovering the age and restoring it without the help of the DRC, or the DRC discovering it and restoring it on their own. Maybe, some combination of the two. I don't see any power problems with explorers learning to write, I just don't think it's possible. It seems to me that it takes a native D'ni, being taught by D'ni, many years to learn to Write. How could a surface dweller "crack" the Art in a mere two years?

Second, I always thought of the tools as being what Cyan uses to make the game, but maybe cut down a little. There's no reason for them to spend more time on this than they have to. If they release their 3dsMax tools, it will become easier for the BlenderPRP developers to figure out the mystery of the PRP format. If Cyan leaves it to the fans to develop the better tools, it could work.

I think that it would be very great to have point-and-click tools. I really do. It just seems uneccisary for Cyan to spend time on User Age Tools, when they could be working on new Ages, etc. No offense intended to the current Age Builders, but I'd rather have a Cyan Age any day.

On the note of that, I have always felt strongly that any fan Age accepted into Uru would have to be vigorously tested, and well made. Also, it would have to fit in. If I link into a fan Age, it should be seamless, and I shouldn't have to adjust to what could be a poor-quality age. Again, no offense towards Age Builders (you yourselves have admitted that you are striving for Cyan-quality work), it would just seem a little tacky to link from an extravagant D'ni Library to a house made of "brown" and "green".

Just my 2cents.

agrif

Actually Agrif, it isn't that much of a stretch for explorers to write Ages.

Cathrine was Rivenese and she wrote marvelous Ages, Atrus himself is only a quarter D'ni, and Yeesha the best writer of them all only 1/8th.

In fact, Ti'anna, a surface dweller, wrote the Age of Myst itself.

As for the actual proccess of creating, there are two ways, learning the art in its entirity and properly writing an Age, and Gehn's method, of copying lines from other books in different combinations.

Gehn's method is beautifully suited to players using a special age creation tool, since you would essentially be crafting your age from a limited number of premade models.

Now you do have a point about the amount of time it takes to learn the Art, but again, only a rudimentary understanding is required to copy relevant lines from a few books and make (temporarily) stable age.

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Alec Winters KI 06399622

"History is irredeemable."
- Kain, Scion of Balance

We know how Gehn's Ages ended though, especially Riven, so I'm not so sure using his 'method' is such a good idea in the end. (on the other hand, seeing how our Ages are incomplete and bugged so far, this would be a good IC explanation :p )

Quote:

Second, I always thought of the tools as being what Cyan uses to make the game, but maybe cut down a little. There's no reason for them to spend more time on this than they have to.

Well first of all if tools are released they shouldn't be cut down for two reasons: first that would limit our abilities and second, in software development sometimes 'cutting down' means more work. They (Cyan) might be using very complicated tools right now but trying to simplify them would probably mean even more work.

Quote:

If they release their 3dsMax tools, it will become easier for the BlenderPRP developers to figure out the mystery of the PRP format. If Cyan leaves it to the fans to develop the better tools, it could work.

I'm not familiar with the 3dsMax plugins format but I don't think you can actually get the source code directly from it. Cyan would have to release the source code under some license to give it some legal frame. An open source license would be perfect (Gnu GPL or other) so that people can modifiy the tools and if needed adapt them for other software; while mainting proper credits to Cyan.
That would just be perfect.

As I wrote in my own post in this section there is many ways
to make simple tools to generate content without having
to use other third party software. (such as 3d max etc)
I can agree with all has todo with the engine, but adapt
new libs and functions is easy, just a matter of time.

I imagine a construction-gui be made containing
topograf, 2d to 3d, visual click-drag hiarchy puzzle system and so fort.
Think a lot of effort is to be made to make this
so even the most novice person could have a quick learning-cerv.

If we take for example topografy, where you make
your land. I always been very fond of
http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/
Simple forms, sliders and brushpallet generating the land
and its texture. For advance users they might be able to
import there own hightsmaps etc Which then is interpeted
and formated into the engines algorithms.

From this topo you can from a broad database in
a 2d top view start to place out objects, walls, doors etc
which you then let the engine generate into a 3d enviroment.
Could have a simple 3D object generator, as you seen before
Im refering alot to the upcoming game "Spore", which
uses the old school thinking and adapting it with asstounding
results. Simple childish 3d program to generate new things
with use of compression and algorithms, it would be in the end
a selfcontained huge resource for all players.
Another quick solution would be that Cyan supplies
the database themself. Like lego (now thats a thought- Myst lego)

For puzzles, assigning doors, effects etc can just be
made simple with visual signs and click-drag enviroment.
Simple timeline for ex a door, you see the hirachy
just place a button inbetwin them which would indicate
then that you have to press it to open it.

well one could go on forever discussing this topic,
would love to come to the meetings, but live to far away.

While getting a production ready plugin would be nice there are other ways. Cyan could release informations about the age file formats, interfaces and api so that the community could write its own plugins. Every large software project like Uru has tons of documents describing how the different parts of the software work together (api description), how the interfaces are declared and so on.

You might say that nobody is going to read all the docs and write software and plugins for 3d software. Well ... some clever guys at http://agebuilder.org/ *are* working on a plugin for Blender. They have hacked the encrypted "whatdoyousee" Uru files, decrypted all age descriptions and reverse engeneered a great deal of the file format. They did an incredible amount of work w/o (AFAIK) any help from Cyan. With some aid from Cyan and their docs these guys could build a fully functional set of plugins that may even be useful for Cyan!

Another word about the license:
A GPL like license won't do it. I'm sure that Cyan will never ever release the code of Uru or the rights on the story or allow other people/companies to earn money by creating ages. Also GPL is about software licenses and we are talking about intelectual property - ideas, art work, textures, story work and similar stuff.
IMO Cyan should release the docs/plugins and permission to create ages under a Creative Common like license under the control of Cyan.

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