Drakmyth wrote in a reply to the topic Kadish Vaults Storyline (+ pictures):

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It is said that Yeesha broke most of the rules of linking. However, very few of the rules were actually broken.

"Relto Pages" are the same concept as slight modifications to an age and if we each have a separate Relto, we must be carrying the Descriptive Book with us. It being a simple age accounts for the books short length.

Carrying the book with you when you link... okay, I'll give her this one.

With the exception of the Kadish Vault, never once did she link from an age into itself at a different location. If the vaults are two different ages, she didn't actually do this one either.

Linking us around, she's friends with the Bahro. That makes this a moot point.

Linking at will, Bahro again. And Escher did it so it's not impossible (though I don't think she would use the skin of a Bahro, it's still possible).

So far as I can tell, the only rule she actually broke was the carrying the book one. Everything else she only claimed she could do, or made it appear like she could do, but never actually did it.]

I would like to discuss this posting, therefore I created this new thread.

In contrast to Drakmyths doubts I say that Yeesha is not lying and that there actually is evidence of her having aqcuired better abilities than the D'ni ever accomplished.

Modification of an Age

Relto pages are not the same concept as slight modifications to an Age because you can revoke the changes. That is, you know that there once has been, say, a waterfall in your Relto because you have observed it. Then you deactivate the according Relto page in your Relto book, and after a relink, this waterfall is gone. This would render a contradiction under the D'ni Linking rules and thus causing the Link to switch to another Age which would be very similar to the previous one but nevertheless different. That is what happened to Gehn's 37th Age in Book of Atrus: Gehn significantly changed a feature which had been already observed by Atrus and the natives of the Age. When Atrus and Gehn linked back to the changed Age, the natives had changed, too; the link of the Descriptive book had switched to another Age.

But when deactivating the waterfall in Relto, everything except for the waterfall stays the same: My Relto tree still has the same size as before, the logs and rocks lie in the very same place, and my bookshelf is in exactly the same state with all books turned to the same page as before. Sure, even in this case, you could claim that the link switched to another Age, only to a very similar instance. But even if this would be the case, Yeesha can be credited for being able to control to what instance the switch changes: the degree of similarity is astonishing and beyond anything a Writer of D'ni could have been hoping for. And Yeesha does it every time when I change my Relto book!

Linking to the same Age

Again, Relto proves that Yeesha surpasses what the D'ni thought to be possible with Linking. I am able to link to the same instance of Relto from within Relto, even if there are visitors in it. In addition to what I said in the previous section, even visitors in my Relto stay the same with exactly the same features and memories they had before I linked out.

Linking at will without books

Drakmyth has some points in saying that Linking us around at will could have been accomplished with the help of the Bahro. Okay, there is no evidence to prove this claim wrong. But does it matter? Who says that the art of Writing is not actually the conquering of a power to make it act according to the will of the Writer? Who says that this power is not the Bahro, too? Actually, Myst V tells us something along this line. So what would be the difference between using the art of Writing and getting the Bahro to perform particular Linkings?

I conclusion, I think that there indeed is enough evidence to prove that Yeesha learned to use the Art in ways far beyond what the D'ni thought to be possible. One could argue about her claim how she accomplishes all this; however, the net effect of her actions is still the same regardless of it actually happening in the same Age or not, or her utilizing the Bahro or not.

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Quote:

One could argue about her claim how she accomplishes all this; ...

Yeesha a liar? No. Yeesha an exaggerator? Probably. She makes herself look a lot more magical than she is- I think she knows that her abilities are derived from a logical, repeatable method, one that if anybody else were to discover, would work just as well for them. Of course, that would make her uniqueness disappear, so she's not going to admit that.

Even still, I think Yeesha doesn't fully understand how the Bahro work, either.

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Ian A. Pertwee in Cavern - KI# 374362
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Not talking as a mod unless I say so

Ian Atrus wrote:

I don't think she means she's the only person who will ever be able to do this 'magic'. She's just stating that she is the first (at least in our branch) who is capable of doing these things and that, considering the complexity of the task, there probably won't be many after her who will replicate her accomplishments. A bit like those scientists saying they're among the 4-5 persons in the world who fully understand the theory of relativity.

An interesting analogy.

I suppose if one draws it out further, one could argue that it's the old "any sufficiently advanced technology appears to be magic" theory.

A hundred years ago, you'd have been hard-pressed to find very many people in the world who understood calculus, too. These days many people start learning it at age 16. So maybe the implication is that future whatever -- people, generations, civilizations -- will understand it too.

Of course, with Yeesha one must remember that "capable" and "batpoop insane" are not necessarily separate. Lying? No, never. I think that at the very least, she believes that every word she says is entirely honest and true. But that doesn't necessarily make her trustworthy, and that particular distinction is always and ever in the eye of the beholder.

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One Explorer's Journey...

Your right that we shouldn't completely trust Yeesha. we can trust her, but only to an extent. She explains why a bit in Myst V: End of Ages. She doesn't want you to trust her completely as she believes she is acting like her Grandfather Gehn and feels the D'Ni traits of pride and arrogance are very strong in her at that time in Myst V.

If you haven't played Myst V I am sorry to have said spoilers, but is that not the point of this topic to discuss Yeesha?

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There is no end when there is still so much to learn. -Personal quote

Marck wrote:

Modification of an Age

Relto pages are not the same concept as slight modifications to an Age because you can revoke the changes. That is, you know that there once has been, say, a waterfall in your Relto because you have observed it. Then you deactivate the according Relto page in your Relto book, and after a relink, this waterfall is gone. This would render a contradiction under the D'ni Linking rules and thus causing the Link to switch to another Age which would be very similar to the previous one but nevertheless different. That is what happened to Gehn's 37th Age in Book of Atrus: Gehn significantly changed a feature which had been already observed by Atrus and the natives of the Age. When Atrus and Gehn linked back to the changed Age, the natives had changed, too; the link of the Descriptive book had switched to another Age.

But when deactivating the waterfall in Relto, everything except for the waterfall stays the same: My Relto tree still has the same size as before, the logs and rocks lie in the very same place, and my bookshelf is in exactly the same state with all books turned to the same page as before. Sure, even in this case, you could claim that the link switched to another Age, only to a very similar instance. But even if this would be the case, Yeesha can be credited for being able to control to what instance the switch changes: the degree of similarity is astonishing and beyond anything a Writer of D'ni could have been hoping for. And Yeesha does it every time when I change my Relto book!

You're assuming the Relto Pages cause changes in the Age, though I personally support the theory that it links to a similar Age. Somehow the state of the Age is recorded in the book itself, and every time you turn on or off a Relto Page it breaks the link to that Age and you go to another. It's like every time you link through a book and it adds to your bookshelf, or you obtain a sparkly, it gets written in the Relto book. How else do you explain these things appearing in the Age? Whether you turn off a Relto Page or not, that information is still recorded. Turn off the tree page, and the other information is still stored there (most likely in the Relto Page itself, you can't describe something not there, that way the size only is in effect should teh page be on, obviously), turn off the bridge page, and the information on how many sparklies you have is still stored there (most likely, again, in the page itself).

So what she has done is create writing in the form of a page that stays in the book, but can change, and can be turned on and off. That is an amazing accomplishment, but doesn't break the rule that you cannot modify too much of an Age before it breaks the link to it.

Also of note, there's nothing anywhere to my knowledge that says that you cannot undue a specific change in an Age after you write it. Gehn did not have nearly the knowledge of the Art that Yeesha does, and his symbol simply acted as "erasing" everything he had done in the Age after it had been written. So as to say, the symbol he used was too broad, and instead of simply undoing the changes he wrote, it undid all the influence he had on the Ages, erasing everyone's memory. This of course, was impossible, so it linked to an Age where the people simply had no memory of them, as they had never been there. At least, that's my interpretation of it.

However, if you want to prove that they're modifications, and not a change in link, then invite someone to your Relto, wait for them to get there, then turn on or off one page and link there yourself. I'm not actually sure what will happen. However, if the person sees that thing appear or disappear, then you're right. If you both link to different Ages, then you're wrong. It's as simple as that. I just have never tried it before.

Marck wrote:

Linking to the same Age

Again, Relto proves that Yeesha surpasses what the D'ni thought to be possible with Linking. I am able to link to the same instance of Relto from within Relto, even if there are visitors in it. In addition to what I said in the previous section, even visitors in my Relto stay the same with exactly the same features and memories they had before I linked out.

I don't really think anyone can make an argument against that. She has broken that rule (along with the rule of linking with a book). The only argument could be that the two vaults are in separate Ages, which doesn't change the fact that she can link to the same Age from within it.

Marck wrote:

Linking at will without books

Drakmyth has some points in saying that Linking us around at will could have been accomplished with the help of the Bahro. Okay, there is no evidence to prove this claim wrong. But does it matter? Who says that the art of Writing is not actually the conquering of a power to make it act according to the will of the Writer? Who says that this power is not the Bahro, too? Actually, Myst V tells us something along this line. So what would be the difference between using the art of Writing and getting the Bahro to perform particular Linkings?

As The Words of the Watcher specifically state:

] A grower to link at will.

Strictly speaking, "the Grower will be able to, by his or her own self, link either themselves or others at will, without the use of books." Using the Bahro is not linking on at will, unless she's mentally enslaved them to do whatever she wants without any resistance, in which case we have far bigger issues at hand.

(But wow this is quite an old thread, are there rules here against reviving them? I dunno.)

Here is my proposed model for Yeesha's writing. There are a couple of made up terms in here. Try not to get too focussed on those; I just think they're fun.

Meta Relto

Relto is not an age. Relto is a complete probability wave stemming from one initial starting point on the Great Tree, which I will call Meta Relto. Meta Relto is basically 'vanilla' Relto. It may look very much like a new character's Relto. It may look completely different, with the bulk of its physical characteristics coming into being further down the Tree.

State

Our Relto books are connected to us on some level. A State is recorded either within our Relto book or somewhere else; this State is linked to us, like some sort of quantum KI number (Yeesha: "But Relto will change… it will be your soul… showing what you are"). A State is like a 'constructor' for Relto; it takes Meta Relto and configures it, moving down braches of the Tree until it hits the place where our Relto is.

State seems to go beyond the retention of Relto's physical characteristics (ie: There is a waterful, the door is closed, there are x rocks...). Remember Phil's Relto? I don't think that was the result of a Relto page he found.

'Our' Relto

When we link to Relto, we are actually linking to Meta Relto; our State then dictates our progression down the Tree, landing us at what we see as 'our' Relto.



So it makes sense that we can link to our Relto from our Relto; we aren't actually linking there, we're linking to something else that ends up shooting us right back there.

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I'd like to add to this mess by stating the fact that Yeesha was able to change the weather. (here I'm assuming that no one will argue that she linked us to a different age when she made it rain in the cleft) I'm about 95% sure that this was way too complicated a feat for the D'ni to perform without damaging the Age's weather system. That's all.

The bahro could change the weather on noloben. They have just as much a presence on Earth near the cavern. Now, if only we could understand how Yeesha communicates with them so well.

The idea that "changing" an existing age actually leads to a similar but entirely separate age is something that I find really off-putting.
(I know the games aren't "real," but let's use this as an example)
When Atrus wrote Linking Chambers into Spire and Haven, was he actually creating a link to totally new ages, with alternate versions of his sons, leaving his actual sons to die alone? O_o As inconsistent as it may be, it makes more sense to me that when a Descriptive Book is first written and linked to, an existing world is found and selected, but additional, careful tweaks to the books will actually alter the existing world, but abrupt "impossible" changes may cause the Book to link to a different world. This seems to be what the canon suggests, for the most part.

I guess that's a little off topic. I'll admit that the reason I actually clicked on this thread was to point out that "braggart" is the correct term, but apparently "bragger" is also a real word that means virtually the same thing, so... it's all good.

I do think that, particularly at the time of Myst V, but even at some points before that, Yeesha does seem to be descending into a sort of madness, but that seems to be pretty common among people who: A) have a ton of power, B) have a massive and impossible responsibility, and/or C) spend a long time isolated and underground, so I think I can forgive her. The same applies to Gehn, though. I'd forgive him too, actually.

The Book of Atrus (a Myst novel) actually makes the same point you discovered, LuigiHann. Small "adjustments" to ages seem to be able to maintain the link the book originally created. Large, sweeping changes seem to reestablish the link, connecting with an alternate version. It's also interesting to note that only natural features can be written in. Anything mechanical must be made on-site or brought in through the link. Thus the Bahro caves could have been added in because they seem to be natural features of the rock face. The doors could have been constructed after the caves were written into the books. By the way, concerning the link chambers in Spire and Haven, I was under the impression that the chambers were created on (wherever the player starts at... I forget the name), and then linked there. I could be way off base, but I know the game led me to believe that something like that occured. It would also have been possible to naturally block off the link-in area, then construct the thing on-site, then remove the natural barrier with another revision, provided the revisions were small enough to not disrupt the link. Buy that was a bunch of gobble-dee-guck!

I appreciated your take on Yeesha's state of mind and I have to agree with you. Evidence shows that people under extreme stress, while in extreme isolation, can sometimes to very odd things. Though in Gehn's case, I think part of his problem stemmed from being raised by the Guild after age 4, coupled with his high intellect, and having to face the possible extinction of his race. In other words, nature AND nurture together. Still kudos for your excellent attitude toward forgiveness of Gehn!

Kolian wrote:

Here is my proposed model for Yeesha's writing. There are a couple of made up terms in here. Try not to get too focussed on those; I just think they're fun.

Meta Relto

Relto is not an age. Relto is a complete probability wave stemming from one initial starting point on the Great Tree, which I will call Meta Relto. Meta Relto is basically 'vanilla' Relto. It may look very much like a new character's Relto. It may look completely different, with the bulk of its physical characteristics coming into being further down the Tree.

State

Our Relto books are connected to us on some level. A State is recorded either within our Relto book or somewhere else; this State is linked to us, like some sort of quantum KI number (Yeesha: "But Relto will change… it will be your soul… showing what you are"). A State is like a 'constructor' for Relto; it takes Meta Relto and configures it, moving down braches of the Tree until it hits the place where our Relto is.

State seems to go beyond the retention of Relto's physical characteristics (ie: There is a waterful, the door is closed, there are x rocks...). Remember Phil's Relto? I don't think that was the result of a Relto page he found.

'Our' Relto

When we link to Relto, we are actually linking to Meta Relto; our State then dictates our progression down the Tree, landing us at what we see as 'our' Relto.



So it makes sense that we can link to our Relto from our Relto; we aren't actually linking there, we're linking to something else that ends up shooting us right back there.

Kolian, this is an excellent theory. If Yeesha is "the Grower" it is entirely possible for her to manipulate the branching possibilities by establishing a link to a particular point and then creating a book that links US directly WITH the resulting link in the panel of a book (i.e. the link reflects the person and thus the resultant link is establish dynamically). Pure genius!

From what I understand from Multiverse theory (very little, mind you), there were as many Sirrus as universes where it's possible for him to exist and they are all him. Now they are probably all dead.

I think this is a way to blow the individual experience of conciousness and identity so it's not an idea I accept before that is well explained.

TLink wrote:

I'd like to add to this mess by stating the fact that Yeesha was able to change the weather. (here I'm assuming that no one will argue that she linked us to a different age when she made it rain in the cleft) I'm about 95% sure that this was way too complicated a feat for the D'ni to perform without damaging the Age's weather system. That's all.

I don't know about that. Gehn was able to change the weather in the 37th Age, and there is another possible meaning for her statement: "Something no D'ni writer has been able to do in 10,000 years."

No D'ni writer has had access to the Descriptive Book of D'ni in a very very very long time, (I can't remember exactly how long right now, but it was in the third novel "The Book of D'ni.) and no writer can modify an Age in anyway without the Descriptive Book. It's possible she was refering to having either access to the book, or a means of modifying Ages without having access to their descriptive books.

No matter the explaination, it's still an impressive feat, however the latter two give the regular old D'ni writers a bit more credit.

Then again, given Yeesha's state of mind, it really wouldn't surprise me to see her look up and see gathering storm clouds, and decide that she must have put them there. That woman has some serious mental problems... The kind that make me wonder if I should have completed her quest after all.

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"History is irredeemable."
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what is yeesha anyway?