As per Dudemom’s request I am placing a copy of all the discussions about the Guild of Messengers on the Assembly of Guilds forums here. I will be updating this thread once each day feel free to post here or at the forums.

Ideas and questions for the first council meeting.

Lynutte:
Post all your ideas and questions for the first council meeting here. This will give everyone the opportunity to prepare our responses before hand. (Not to say you can't come to the meeting with anything not posted here. I just like to have the chance to think things through before I speak. Saves me a lot of embarrassment. Usually. )

The meeting time and date has not been set yet. I just would like to be prepared for when it is.

*Edited*
Too out the no comments comment. I just can't help myself.

Dudemom_2000:
Will the Council be developing a Code of Conduct for this pre-guild? I have noticed that the other pre-guilds have been working on them and Guild of Greeters has one in place.

Lynutte:
I personally think that should be item #1 on the agenda.

Stevecrox:
I think the thing which should be the top priority is a statement from each group about what they want from a Guild, from its authority over them to the services they are willing to provide and wish to receive from the Guild.

We'll need to draw up some rules for the Pre-Guild Council, basic voting rules, who to goto (I suggest Relteltee) for arbitration and when we will meet in cavern.

Once we have that perhaps discuss a Mission Statement for the Guild and a statement of principles (code of conduct.)

Once all that’s sorted out I'd like to look into providing some of the services which have been suggested in the Brainstorming thread.

Lynutte:
I will not be available for a meeting this weekend because I wiil be out of town. Anytime after that I should be able to make.

Samsbase:
the meeting should be a week before the new episode.

We also need to put the final council to the community vote ASAP.

can someone write it up. (preferably someone not nominated to be in it)

Lynutte:
Does Reteltee sound like a good choice for that job, if he agrees to it?

Samsbase:
bit of a biased forum to ask that question in... he reads this...

Lynutte:
sorry. I've been busy getting school redy for my kids.

Who knows, maybe he will say yes.

What do you say Reteltee?

Samsbase:
I was thinking more along the lines of if one of us was to say no... that might wreck our relationship with him

Lynutte:
Who would you recommend?

Stevecrox:
I suggested Relteltee as he is the "guild advisor" appointed by Cyan and the DRC. Apart from the GoG he’s the only official person. From his interview with Samsbase he sounds serious about Guilds and getting them set up. I think if we ask Relteltee to be a tie breaking arbitrator he has the authority to make others except and the interest to make sure things work out for the best.

Some other things I would suggest is a pre-guild website created at the Guild of Messengers domain that for the moment would act as D'ni once did, with chatlogs of our meetings. Perhaps also the establishment of our forums.

Another thing might be asking each member group to supply a 800*600 logo which we could request Greydragon to place into someone’s account. Assuming the imager in the Guild Pubs works we could upload the images to it and advertise in the Guilds pub (filling a function of the guild.) If Messengers doesn't get a guild or there isn't an imager perhaps we could create a preguild of messengers neighbourhood and upload them there.

If it looks like Cyan are releasing Guild Pubs in this episode could I suggest that we hold our first meeting the day after there opening and publicise the event?

Samsbase
If you confirm it, it will be plugged on this weeks Sam's Base on URU Radio

Lynutte
I don't think we need to worry about a logo or domain right now. We still need to get the first meeting scheduled and see how that goes. If the first meeting is a fiasco, and this thing fails, there will be no need for a logo or domain. Not that I see that happening, we need to just take this one step at a time and not get ahead of ourselves.
I will try to talk to Reteltee, unless someone talks to him first, about being an arbitrator if we need one. If you contact him first, please post it here so we aren't duplicating our efforts. Thanks

Anthony
Ya I doubt it will fail. We have most of the premises of how to make decisions worked out and a basic idea of how we want the guild to be now we just need to meet and work out the finer points

Marten
Samsbase wrote:
the meeting should be a week before the new episode.
With the new episode beginning on either the 6th or the 8th (depending on where you check), I'd say you're not going to meet that deadline.

I'd like some clarification on this:
Quote:
We also need to put the final council to the community vote ASAP.
What does this mean? Does the "Pre-Guild" of Messengers form a council of its respective member or represented groups? Or is the council you refer to part of the AoG?

I don't see the benefit in building a council too quickly. It could take some groups several weeks to figure out how they want to be represented. I'd rather see an initial meeting just to get interested parties together and "start the ball rolling."

Also, not everyone who wants to be involved with the GoMe may necessarily be "representing" another group. How is that going to be managed?

Stevecrox
We are looking at creating a Pre-Guild council which has a representative from each messaging group. Lynette has contacted every group we could think of which has a messaging role and asked them to pass on the message to any group they find we haven't contacted.

We figure that the hardest part of the guild of messengers is getting the different messaging groups talking to each other and working together. (perhaps not as one group but greater information sharing and cooperation between us.) So if Cyan do decide that the Guild structure we are building is not what they want and pull the plug we will of at worst have worked out how the many different messaging groups can work together.

So far the council would only consist on messaging groups because its the fairest way to build it. Why? The messaging groups are the first groups directly concerned with such a Guild and actually perform messaging functions, if you run a council a single explorer representative this would not be fair and letting every explorer into the council would create a similar mess to the DRC Liason initial election setup. The council is pre guild and will have a limited lifespan. It purpose will be to establish the guild and setup an infrastructure that will enhance existing groups and life in the cavern (although we still haven't come close to working out a mission statement yet.) All the meeting are planned to be public, and explorers who aren't affiliated with a group are welcome to join in any discussion as well as being welcome to join any of the groups involved.

For people unhappy that they can't "vote" this councils real aim is to get the current messaging groups talking to each other, which has very little to do with the explorer community at large and a lot to do with the groups involved.

Hope that answers some of your questions

_________________

Last edited by Stevecrox on Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:31 pm; edited 2 times in total

As per Dudemom’s request I am placing a copy of all the discussions about the Guild of Messengers on the Assembly of Guilds forums here.

Individuals interested in Guild of Messengers council

Lynutte:
If you are a single explorer and have an interest in the Guild of Messengers and it's council, please post your KI number here. Come back at a later time and see who else has posted. Get together with them to form a group. This will give individual explorers a way to form a group and get a vote on the council.

*Edit*
It would also be helpful to list any news experience you have had, whether inside the cavern or outside, or how you can contribute to the council.

Stevecrox
I believe a interim Committee or Council should be formed to help establish the Guild of Messenger in a way which is as fair as possible to the existing messaging groups and gives them the biggest voice.

I believe the guild should have one representative from every group which can be tied to messaging activities with proportional voting. In the case that a unanimous decision can't be reached then Relteltee should be notified and asked to mediate the decision. This council should last no longer than 3 months and at the end of 3 months a review of the council by its participating members should take place. The guild should also be open to expanding if a messaging group contacts it after its been created.

So far I believe such a council should be made up of the following groups(taken from Shirmillions list on the MOUL forums this board is retarted in what it bans )

Quote:

Cavern Communicators Network
The Cavern Today
CavernCam Community
D'net (despite their inactive status)
D'ni Jazz Club
Ki Toons
Myst Embassy
Myst Obsession
RelayerCorps
Rooftop Volunteer Group
Uru Blogs
Uru Radio

Andros
Hi! I am Kalypso and I am not affiliated with any group. I'm just an average explorer who thinks that the information distribution is lacking in the cavern(out of cavern is great if people are aware of them). This August I started a personal project: Quick Surveys to give a voice to the explorers. The key personalities in Uru are well known and so are their opinions. But what interest me is what the average explorers think. The results of Survey #1 are out and can be found at voicesuru.pbwiki[dot]com

shimmerillion
I'm also interested in representing the average explorer.

I've been playing Uru on and off since January, but I didn't even know any of the cavern news organizations existed until I started browsing the mystonline forum. I'd like to help change that for other explorers.

I have RL experience in the news and media industries, and I think I would bring an objective point of view.

Andros
shimmerillion wrote:
I have RL experience in the news and media industries, and I think I would bring an objective point of view.


Hello Shimmerillion Your experience will be beneficial to the GoMes. May I ask what specific experience you have? Thank you.

shimmerillion
Sure thing. I worked at an NPR affiliate for 4 years and have done a little freelance videography. I am a Web developer by profession, and I also serve as staff advisor to a university television network (made up of around 50 student volunteers).

I think that about covers it ...
_________________

Andros
Wow. That is really impressive. You are way more qualified than I to have a spot on the council if I have to vote

Where do you see the GoMess going in the next few months?

Shimmerillion
Andros wrote:
Where do you see the GoMess going in the next few months?


Lol "Guild of Mess" - I hope it doesn't come to that!

I don't know where the GoM discussion will go ... but my hope is that all the different organizations can come together and think about what a Guild would bring above and beyond what the organizations can do on their own. (Otherwise why have one?) Then we can discuss ways to facilitate success.

Eventually I think we should have a list of outcomes we expect from ourselves (along with a plan of action for each) to present to the community. New elections would be held for the actual Guild leadership. We should also prepare a list of outcomes (in priority order, with resources required and the benefit to explorers) we need from Cyan, which we can pass to them through Reteltee.

_________________

Ruby O'Degee is very interested in being part of the GOM, but at this point I am not interested in being part of a council that meets on another forum and makes decisions about the GOM. The council that meets on the other forum has been created without input from all members of the current cavern media. I don't feel that the council is official or represents official GOM business at this time.

I would like to see continued GOM discussion about what the GOM will look like here at the MOUL forum. In the past private forum (unmoderated) threads and dialogue has not proven to be an effective way to bring about inter group collaboration. A discussion of the GOM would be better previewed and monitored here in the light of the cavern (what light there is ).

In other words, I would like to make it clear I am not abandoning the idea of being part of the GOM. I just don't see the council as being the only or official GOM at this point. Maybe the "council" should clarify if it thinks of itself as the only or official GOM? Who made it so?

It is my personal opinion that the Council spoke of here will be called the AoG Council by myself, and not the GOM. I will know the "AoG Council" is working on their own version of the GOM, which is not necessarily my version or the official version of the guild. While the "AoG Council" is busy with a possible GOM proposal, other proposals for the GOM may come about.

By the way I am involved with an cavern media group (since 8/2005) called the Cavern Communications Network (CCN). I do not know of a group called Cavern Communicators Network. Thank you for the correction.

Note EDIT - Ann posts as Ruby O'Degee or Annd, but she is always Ruby O'Degee .

Ruby O'Degee

_________________
Cavern Communications Network Twitter:CCNDownUnder - Borrowed from Mr. Lewis Carroll: What is the use of a book, without pictures or conversations? KI 379788, Twitter: Ruby_ODegee

Here is what I just posted over at AoG Forums and want to make sure it goes here as well.

Stevecrox said:

Quote:

We are looking at creating a Pre-Guild council which has a representative from each messaging group. Lynette has contacted every group we could think of which has a messaging role and asked them to pass on the message to any group they find we haven't contacted.

We figure that the hardest part of the guild of messengers is getting the different messaging groups talking to each other and working together. (perhaps not as one group but greater information sharing and cooperation between us.) So if Cyan do decide that the Guild structure we are building is not what they want and pull the plug we will of at worst have worked out how the many different messaging groups can work together.

So far the council would only consist on messaging groups because its the fairest way to build it. Why? The messaging groups are the first groups directly concerned with such a Guild and actually perform messaging functions, if you run a council a single explorer representative this would not be fair and letting every explorer into the council would create a similar mess to the DRC Liason intial election setup. The council is pre guild and will have a limited lifespan. It purpose will be to establish the guild and setup an infrastructure that will enhance existing groups and life in the cavern (although we still haven't come close to working out a mission statement yet.) All the meeting are planned to be public, and explorers who aren't affliated with a group are welcome to join in any discussion as well as being welcome to join any of the groups involved.

For people unhappy that they can't "vote" this councils real aim is to get the current messaging groups talking to each other, which has very little to do with the explorer community at large and alot to do with the groups involved.

Thanks, Steve, I think that clarifies it. And thanks for posting the thread on MOUL Forums (I just think putting it out there will sort of cover all our bases and get the info out to as many as possible). I think everyone knows the goal of this is to get the dialogue going between the various messaging or news groups so that they can work together more easily.

Maybe one of the first things that can be done is to hammer out any terminology we want to use describe the group/groups (whether it is council, committee, quorum or group of folks) since that seems to be a sticking point for some and to have each group present their expectations of what direction they want this all to go. Also maybe draft some basic 'what do we think we want' questions so that each group representative could meet with their respective groups, present the questions and get a consensus of what the group wants or how they think this should procede. (everyone gets asked the same questions so that we are all on the same page) Then come back and meet again and have the representatives give their presentations or have a thread on the forums so that each representative can post the consensus and gather any additional comments. This certainly has to be a group effort by all who are interested.

Compared to the other pre-guilds, we are actually a very diverse group, each doing something a bit different than the others (lol, sort of like herding cats!). We have our own tasks to accomplish and we need to make sure we can find some common ground and delineate our goals and what our limitations are going to be. Hopefully this will help minimize people feeling like their interests are not being properly represented or that what they have been doing is going to be dictated to by another group.

_________________
Moula:
DMom2K KI 74181
GameBoomer KI 83122

SL:
DMom2K Darwin

Citizen of the Metaverse and oh, yeah, The Dude abides....

Ideas and questions for the first council meeting - Continued
Eleri
Mmm, I think some of the hang up may be in calling it a council, having nominations, etc... That makes it seem much more official and structured and final than what it appears you want.

What it seems you want, is a group of people from the various messegery-type groups to commit to sitting down and talking about what the GoM could be, and how to get that ball rolling. Am I at all correct?


So, perhaps instead of asking for 'council nominations', the approach to take would be to ask for groups to participate in a discussion circle or dialogue, from which the concept of a Council could eventually be built. You could even start with a classic Bauminan dialogue, where everyone speaks, but there's no debate or discussion, just each person speaking on their thoughts about a Guild of Messengers. It can be a very freeing thing to be able to speak on a topic, without fear of the group judging or 'deciding' on your ideas and thoughts.

Lynutte
Eleri, I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, but this is the same semantic nit-picking that has stopped anything from actually happening or getting done in the past.

Eleri
mind you, I'm not trying to nitpick. "Group of people getting together talking about Stuff" can be called whatever it gets called, as long as stuff gets done.

However, perceptions of what the group purpose is, can be coloured by what it is labeled as. I see some of the community, including people who really *should* be a part of the brainstorming, being confused and put off buy the implications of 'council'. Which means that being clear in communicating what effort is being made becomes vital to clear up misunderstandings, so that actual progress can be made.

Since it wasn't completely clear at the beginning that "Council" meant "Brainstorming Discussion Group" and not "Ruling Body of the Guild of Messengers", time is lost as other people try to figure out just what is supposed to be happening.

Stevecrox
I've posted this thread on MOUL forums hopefully people will read it and understand. Honestly I don't mind what its called "council" or "comittee" made more sense to me because at the end of the day its a small group of people who decide on an end action through voting. But if you think its putting people off why not call our first meeting a "brainstorming session" at the end of the session ask for requests and put them to a vote.

Dudemom_2000
Stevecrox said:

Quote:

We are looking at creating a Pre-Guild council which has a representative from each messaging group. Lynette has contacted every group we could think of which has a messaging role and asked them to pass on the message to any group they find we haven't contacted.

We figure that the hardest part of the guild of messengers is getting the different messaging groups talking to each other and working together. (perhaps not as one group but greater information sharing and cooperation between us.) So if Cyan do decide that the Guild structure we are building is not what they want and pull the plug we will of at worst have worked out how the many different messaging groups can work together.

So far the council would only consist on messaging groups because its the fairest way to build it. Why? The messaging groups are the first groups directly concerned with such a Guild and actually perform messaging functions, if you run a council a single explorer representative this would not be fair and letting every explorer into the council would create a similar mess to the DRC Liason intial election setup. The council is pre guild and will have a limited lifespan. It purpose will be to establish the guild and setup an infrastructure that will enhance existing groups and life in the cavern (although we still haven't come close to working out a mission statement yet.) All the meeting are planned to be public, and explorers who aren't affliated with a group are welcome to join in any discussion as well as being welcome to join any of the groups involved.

For people unhappy that they can't "vote" this councils real aim is to get the current messaging groups talking to each other, which has very little to do with the explorer community at large and alot to do with the groups involved.

Thanks, Steve, I think that clarifies it. And thanks for posting the thread on MOUL Forums (I just think putting it out there will sort of cover all our bases and get the info out to as many as possible). I think everyone knows the goal of this is to get the dialogue going between the various messaging or news groups so that they can work together more easily.

Maybe one of the first things that can be done is to hammer out any terminology we want to use describe the group/groups (whether it is council, committee, quorum or group of folks) since that seems to be a sticking point for some and to have each group present their expectations of what direction they want this all to go. Also maybe draft some basic 'what do we think we want' questions so that each group representative could meet with their respective groups, present the questions and get a consensus of what the group wants or how they think this should procede. (everyone gets asked the same questions so that we are all on the same page) Then come back and meet again and have the representatives give their presentations or have a thread on the forums so that each representative can post the consensus and gather any additional comments. This certainly has to be a group effort by all who are interested.

Compared to the other pre-guilds, we are actually a very diverse group, each doing something a bit different than the others (lol, sort of like herding cats!). We have our own tasks to accomplish and we need to make sure we can find some common ground and delineate our goals and what our limitations are going to be. Hopefully this will help minimize people feeling like their interests are not being properly represented or that what they have been doing is going to be dictated to by another group.

Marten
First, Steve, I appreciate that you've mirrored comments from here over to the MOUL forums to increase awareness. :thumbsup:

Now, my first impression is that the basic ideas behind the GoMe council are sound, but some groups are inevitably going to feel disenfranchised. Unfortunately, that includes mine, so I have to speak up.

The Great Tree is not a guild nor do its members wish to become one; it's a loose affiliation of members with different talents, working together for a common cause, a shared belief. Some of us are Engineers, some Writers, some Artists, and so forth. Our desire in the formation of these first guilds is to ensure that we have representation within each Guild. I do not see how that would work with the proposal you've set forth, at least not at this stage of the process.

Stevecrox
Thanks I'm going to try and update my thread once each day hopefully I can keep it up.

I agree at this stage of the process I think representation in the council is very limited. At the same time I think this is very early on in the process, Cyan have stated a time table of years for getting Guilds established and I think at this point its better to create a foundation which the current messaging groups can use and appreciate once thats built move onto wider representation and pushing forwards.

I'm definitly not adverse to other groups and individuals involving themselves in the discussions. But as so many others kept councilling me I think its important to take this slowly and do it properly

Stevecrox

[1]Code of Conduct
[2]Statement of what each group wants from the guild
[3]Mission statement
[4]Sorting out council voting (relteltee as arbitrator etc…)
[5]Name of the council?

What I make our first meetings agenda to be so far

Whilyam

Marten wrote:

The Great Tree is not a guild nor do its members wish to become one; it's a loose affiliation of members with different talents, working together for a common cause, a shared belief. Some of us are Engineers, some Writers, some Artists, and so forth. Our desire in the formation of these first guilds is to ensure that we have representation within each Guild. I do not see how that would work with the proposal you've set forth, at least not at this stage of the process.

My opinion, though I'm not in this guild, is that the Great Tree (as a group) can't and (in my opinion) should not have influence inside the guilds. NOT to say they can't join, but that it seems odd to have a group have influence in a guild if they aren't a group involving some part of that guild. If that makes sense.

If individuals in TGT want to join, obviously there's no problem. If there are some who want to be messengers, they should find an organization they want to be a part of and be a part of the guild that way. But it makes no sense to me to have a Great Tree representative in each guild promoting... whatever the Great Tree promotes. If that's what you mean.

Marten
Whilyam,

What you say does make sense, even if I don't agree with it 100%; and I must admit that I was not entirely clear with my earlier posting. I'll try to do a better job now.

As an organization, The Great Tree is going to encourage its members to participate in the guilds. In that way, The Great Tree will have "representation."

However, in my view, simply being a member of TGT (or any other group) is not and should not ever be considered criteria for memership in a guild. What I'm looking for is a way for individuals such as myself, who are not presently directly affiliated with any of the other "Messenger organizations," to participate with the GoMe. In addition to responsibilities I've assumed in my work with The Great Tree, I do freelance work and reporting. I'm also available to teach explorers the basics of how to use video editing tools. I am a message craftsman. I am not interested in becoming a formalized member of CCN or TCT or Relayers or any other organization to obtain representation within GoMe. I want to be recognized for my own contributions.

If I am permitted to become more involved with the GoMe, then I would also work as a representative of The Great Tree on the simple basis that I share and support their ideals. Paraphrasing something I wrote to Steve, representation of TGT would be a consequence of my acceptance into GoMe, but not a reason for it.

And, my thinking is that other groups who do not wish to be affiliated with a single guild should also be able to do the same.

Whilyam
Okay, I get what you mean now, and hopefully you'll simply be able to join the guild when it starts up without going through these groups. After a while, though, I would imagine guilds would need to begin saying "we have enough for now, sorry" because we all know everyone, their relations for the past two generations, and their dog are going to want to join the Writers. That, I think, would be your only stumbling block in getting into the guild.

I predict when the guilds come about, there won't be representatives from each group (or I'd hope not). Reps are good for starting this project get going, but in the actual guild those make little sense. It would be the Guildmaster and lords (or whatever they may be called) that make up a voting body. These should be based on individual merit (the quality of content produced) and not on getting a rep from each group in the guild. Since you would end up with your representative body formed out of the heads of the current organizations (and maybe one person like Marten who represents people not on those organizations). For now, however, to get some basic rules together, a group of representatives from groups that have experience seems the best option.

Update

Samsbase
Whilyam what you are advocating, is cutting out the organisation level. which is EXACTLY what we are designing this system to prevent.

If the guild of Messengers works independently from the news organisations, the news organisations will not have any official status in the guild, and will lose their viewers/listeners.

Is that what you want ?

The Psion
I think we also need to remember that we're still in the beginning stages, Cyan or Reteltee can come to the Guilds with new information, turning everything we've planned upside down, so I don't think anything is in stone.

As far as losing subscribers/members/listeners: just because a group isn't on/represented on the council doesn't mean they will suddenly become obsolete. There was no guild of messengers before this and we've all existed. Just because we won't be "official" doesn't mean all of the existing readers/subscribers/members will go away.

And while I do think it is important for the Cavern media outlets to be involved, I think it is necessary to have unaffiliated members in the guild as well. For URU (and the guild(s)) to grow, we need to be a welcoming community, and if someone wants to participate, even in a way until they find their own niche, and if we can help, then so much the better. I think excluding individual members, or even making them inferior on the council, would be a very bad step indeed.

I like the idea of a tiered council, it seems to fit with the D'ni system of guildmasters and masters and apprentices and such, but I think as long as those "ranks" (and I use the term loosely) isn't based on affiliation, but rather on service and skill, we would be ok. I personally don't like the thought of higher tiers having more votes, although certainly some topics would just be discussed/voted on by the higher tiers.

Stevecrox
I personnally would rather see the messaging groups get organised first and then once we seem happy to open the doors to everyone

_________________

Last edited by Stevecrox on Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:48 am; edited 5 times in total

First Preguild Meeting Time & Date

I'll be trying to keep these sync'd but the thread is Here

Lynutte:
Would everyone please post here what dates and times will work for them.
I will be unable to do anything this weekend because I will be out of town until sometime on Monday. After that, I can work my schedule so I can be there.

Anthony
Some time this weekend is good after that Fridays through Monday is good for me.

Stevecrox
As long as you give me 24 hours notice I should be good for whenever over the next two weeks.

How would this Saturday be for people, say 11pm GMT?

The Psion
The weekends this month are all totally booked, but feel free to meet and fill me in.

Or, if meeting some other time, just give me a day or two's notice and I'll be good!

Stevecrox
Hrmm is Friday better? Since it would be our first meeting its probably important we can all make it

Update

The Psion

Stevecrox wrote:

Hrmm is Friday better? Since it would be our first meeting its probably important we can all make it

This Friday and next aren't, I'll be camping. However, if we wanted to do a Sunday evening meeting that would work.

Samsbase
I broadcast URU Radio on a sunday evening....

otherwise just post a time and day thats fine for you and i'll do my best to attend

_________________

Last edited by Stevecrox on Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:45 am; edited 4 times in total

Brainstorming things for the Guild to do

Thread is here

John Lynch
This thread is just where we brainstorm ideas on what the Guild of Messengers can do. Any idea you can think of, put up here, even if some other group currently provides that service. This is just to brainstorm.

My ideas:
* Host transcripts and/or logs of important people.
* Allow explorers and others to make announcements in one central place.
* Hold Town Hall Meetings
* Hold general discussion nights on particular topics.
* Archive important announcements.

Montgomery
I have a suggestion. I got this from listening to the latest TCT podcast, which should hit the steets Monday.

Someone mentioned that since they don't often get to be in the cavern during the actual story events, or if they do, the lag forces them out, that they are forced to get the story by tracking down the chatlogs and reading them. He was saying it would be great if there were more journals or some other place where people could catch up on the events unfolding in more of a narrative way.

So wouldn't it be a perfect job for the Messengers to provide a daily summary -- similar to The Cavern Today forum over on the UO forums, but delivered directly to the explorers -- either as a KI-mail, like the KI-news was for awhile, or as a neat little post on a Web site, or as an e-mail via a subscription service, or whatever. TCT Extra is attempting to do something similar with little mini daily podcasts on an Internet feed.

Actually, I'm thinking maybe a PDF -- with bits of chatlogs, screenshots, even embedded video if available. And links to full chatlogs or important forum topics. And a really good writer/journalist to capture the main events of the day -- both official and otherwise (like the impromptu meetings in the Pub with Brian and J.D. Barnes). Basically a daily newspaper for just those days during episodes.

What do you think?

Sharaya
I think that's a great idea Montgomery. I know I had to miss a few days this last episode and would have loved that. No offense to the UO forum, but it's not easy to navigate so I avoid going there.

Stevecrox
What do I think the guild of messengers should do?

Community Portal – I believe the guild should be primarily a portal to display various groups works. D’net would be a good example of good community portal.

IC/OOC – I believe the guild should cater to IC and OOC events and provide a service to cater to those markets for example if a subscription service for Guild member productions existed perhaps a IC, OOC and Mixed subscription should exist allowing explorer’s to enjoy the cavern in the way they want.

Support – Support the cavern populace through:

1)The Guild should aim to support activities of the fellow explorer’s, that could be through advertising either through itself or one of its member groups. By this I mean it should allow explorers to enter information about events and display these in a useful fashion (much like AdamJohnson’s calendar) or notifying the member groups so they can produce TCT Extra’s, updating Myst Obsession’s Community Today forum etc… Both would be better.

2) Lend logistical support to cavern groups and idea’s this can come in a variety of different ways technical, material or through expertise. Some examples of this would be: Carl Palmer recently created a website as an introduction for new explorer’s and the D’ni Safety videos and the Great Tree Productions, all are fan creations. I believe the Guild should not only help publicise such fan creations but openly offer help, be it expertise (examples of good video editing software…) or technical for example offering web space (maybe through sub domains.) While many fan creations would fall under the purvey of other guilds, I believe helping other fan creations should be a priority.

3) In cavern support, currently the Guild of Relayers help to relay information through the cavern, with Guild Pubs on the way I believe a permanent in cavern presence during episodes would be beneficial. I think having members in cavern who are aware of the latest news and storyline would give people a place to go to find out what they have missed and help explorers so they don’t feel lost – perhaps this would be something we could share with the GoG.

Interviews – I believe the guild should aim to have a copy of interviews (from its formation) in the original format as well as a transcript of each interview and shown in a way that is organised perhaps displayed in Cyanist, DRC and Explorer categories.

A Tool – Become a central place for different groups to post information and used to help each other. Some ideas for this would be the Guild of Relayers supplying chatlog to the Guilds site/forum so member can go to one source to post chatlogs, someone from Myst Obsession posting updates from their cavern today forum. Internal messages for example Samsbase is currently looking for people to help on two hour slots in his Uru Radio. Rather than having him contact five hundred different people he can post on one forum advertising it to everyone.

I’m sorry if I have repeated what has already been said but those of some of the things I think the Guild should have in the beginning.

Sharaya
Just a clarification Steve. We are the RelayerCorps. We aren't a guild yet. If we do join the Guild of Messengers, we'll still be the RelayerCorps and not The Guild of Relayers. I don't think we'll need to change our name.

CA Greywolf
Montgomery wrote:

Quote:

He was saying it would be great if there were more journals or some other place where people could catch up on the events unfolding in more of a narrative way.

I very much support this idea. Being one that "usually" misses the in-cavern events, either because of the time that they happen or I'm not able to get into those areas, this would be quite useful to keep "up-to-date" on said events.

Something the the GoG has been doing for a number on months now and I have found incredibly useful is posting short news blurbs about cavern events. Fellow Greeter jarelav aka schlomo searches out the events and writes up a short blurb (with links when available) to post on our News section of our main website.

Having the short blurbs is like a brief overview that I can then choose to either follow for more in-depth story or not. Either way, I'm able to keep updated with a brief look ... and it's all I one place for easy reference. Please keep in mind that the GoG is not and does not want to become involved with or compete with any of the larger and better news reporting sites. The idea here to to provide useful blurbs with links so that an explorer can get the information quickly and easily.

This is what I ... as an explorer ... would like to see.

Lynutte

Quote:

He was saying it would be great if there were more journals or some other place where people could catch up on the events unfolding in more of a narrative way.

I like this idea. Would it be possible for Cyan to put the journal in our relto? It would be like having a newspaper delivered to your house. This way everyone can choose to read, or not, without waiting in a line to get to the journal. Can they make it so more than one news group can write the articles?

Quote:

Something the the GoG has been doing for a number on months now and I have found incredibly useful is posting short news blurbs about cavern events.

This is also a great idea. I like being able to catch up on what I have missed. This may also be a great way for fanbased events to advertise if GOG, or a news group would be willing to let them.

C A GreyWolf

Lynnutte wrote:

CAGrayWolf wrote:

Something the the GoG has been doing for a number on months now and I have found incredibly useful is posting short news blurbs about cavern events.

This is also a great idea. I like being able to catch up on what I have missed. This may also be a great way for fanbased events to advertise if GOG, or a news group would be willing to let them.

Lial is in charge of the GoG calendar and does post any and all events that she is aware of. We also work with and RSS feed and any forum that accepts RSS feeds will also get the notices. I only know of one forum ... MYSTcommunity ... that actually has this feature activated though. Quite a useful forum tool to help get information around.

BladeLakem
Myst Headlines subscribes to the GoG Calendar RSS feed. It's at http://news.mystembassy.net/

It also aggregates several other RSS feeds into a single one. It is also available on LiveJournal at http://syndicated.livejournal.com/mystnewsfeed/

Narym
The Archiver (www[dot]thecaverntoday[dot]com/Archiver(argh... I can't post urls...)) has been thinking since Scars about doing some sort of frequent update thing during episodes, namely, a distribution of a small pdf to a mailing list of recipients. We were also thinking it would be cool to perhaps do episode summaries in a journal style format (propably in this 'mini' version, or perhaps in the Archiver itself)

We have the facilities and the software to do it, the only problem is manpower, which is probably the main problem with ANY volunteer outfit. I'm hoping the 'wow' factor of the GoM may help increase the media's profile in cavern, and maybe just make life easier for all of us in terms of providing quality news to the community

Lynnutte
Lack of man power definately seems to be a common theme with most groups right now. I thinki if explorers see that we (the news groups) can work together under the GOM umbrella while still keeping our individuality, that might be the wow factor we are looking. As far as I know, that hasn't been done in the cavern before.
I know there have been concerns about groups loosing themselves in GOM as well as some groups having more power than others and excluded still other groups all together. With the way we are discussing ideas and options right now, I don't see that happening. I hope it stays that way.

Anthony
Ya diversity is a strength when it comes to news. I would hate to see it become one homogeneousness org. TCT has been rather lucky when it comes to staffing we have rarely had any trouble having the staff needed to get what ever we needed done, in fact some times we have had trouble finding things for people to do. Right now our staffing is right about where we would want it though a couple dedicated reporters for the Extra would be of use.

Lynnutte
If you have trouble finding things for people to do, send them my way. I will have no trouble keeping them busy.

Nayrm
Speak for yourself Anthony. I wouldn't mind another writer/reporter or two!

Eleri
I think some of what we need to look at is what we need (and have) *now* vs what we *want* a Guild of Messengers to be.

For example, right now, no one has access to imagers beyond their own hood, so groups have used KImail and such to get messages out, but the GoM would *need* access to the imagers, in order to be really effective.

Catalogue our assets, figure out what we need.

Anthony
Ya well thats the archiver. I still need to get use to the fact that TCT is a more general term now. My work has always been more on the Podcast and website maintenance side of things. That and adding new projects to the TCT portfolio.

Lynnutte
There is one imager the GOM could have access to. That is a hood imager. If the GOM were to create a hood. Unfortunately, the imager has a very limited capacity.

Stevecrox
The ability to upload audio files into the auditouim speakers so the audio works can be listened to

Anthony
Personally I would like to see access to the classroom or right hood imagers be given so we can post stuff there. If we make a post to one of them it goes to all the hoods.

Shimmerillion
I posted my initial thoughts on this topic on the MOUL forum: (MOUL dot com) /forums/viewtopic.php?t=11790&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

EDIT: Sorry, had to do some creative posting there since it won't let me post a real address.

Semplerfi
http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11790&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Shimmerillion
Thank you, semplerfi!

Eleri
Please feel free to pick through the services on the D'net website for ideas. Although I'm not up to being on the council, I'm happy to explain how things the D'net and the Liaisons did worked.

_________________

Guild of Messenger Council Nominations

I ask forgiveness here because I am only starting from Page 4 of this thread, while I will try to keep this upto date its taking ages to get all this copied accross, if you are interested in reading the entire thread it can be found HERE

Lynnutte
Samsbase said

Quote:

I vote we get the list of organisations up by friday, and get them to accept/deny, then give a candidate by monday.

I agree. We need to get this started now. I can send out messages to Thend and Lord Chaos (Rooftop Volunteer Group). I'm not sure how the Rooftop Volunteer group would fit in to GOM since, from what I understand and I could be wrong, there function is to throw parties. I base that assumption on what Lord Chaos posted on the Relayer Corps form. http://relayercorps.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=153

If someone gives me a list of other people to contact, I have no problem contacting them if you want. If you want to contact them yourselves, we need to get a list started of who is contacting whom, and when they were contacted.
Let me know if this is acceptable and I will get started on it right away.

Samsbase
I'll check this back tomorrow night, and then we can move onto the next step, sorry but i'm out all day tomorrow so i cant help get it sorted. Lynette that ok for you tho ?

Lynnutte
I don't think a day more or less will make much of a difference. It's fine with me.

Samsbase
great, I look forward to seeing your canvassing Lynnette.

Lynutte
If that means you want me to go ahead and start contacting people. I would very much appreciate it if you and Stevecrox gave me a list of all the people you know in the other groups, and what group they belong to, that might be able to make this decision for their groups. As I have said, I only know 2 people. As soon as I get that list, I'll get started.

Stevecrox

1. Cavern Communicators Network - Ghaelen on the Mystonline forums
   
2. The Cavern Today - Either myself or Anthony we're both paying attention to this forum anyway
   
3. Ki Toons - Thend PM on the MystObsession forums
   
4. Myst Embassy - Don't know
   
5. Myst Obsession - The Psion PM on Mystonline or MystObsession forums
   
6. RelayerCorps - Yourself
   
7. Rooftop Volunteer Group - Lord Chaos found on all forums
   
8. Uru Action News - Mikefitz on these forums or Mystonline
   

Lynnutte
So, the only ones I need to contact on that list are:
Ghaelen
Thend
Psion
Lord Chaos

I will also contact MikeFitz to make sure he knows, and try to find someone in charge of Myst Embassy. Sounds like I have my work cut out for me, so I had better get started.

Lynnutte
Has anyone thought about Mystlive joining us? I just go a message from Psion explaining to me what Mystlive is and does.

Quote:

It's main purpose is to help explorers (new and old) find a home in The Cavern and keep them up to date with hood specific activities.

I believe this would fall under the GOM because Mystlive gives explorers a place to find out what is happening in the different hoods. I think we should ask them to appoint a rep. and join us. Any thoughts on this?

Stevecrox
Yes, sorry I should have said its one reason to contact Psion as he is one of the leading admins at MO and he runs MystLive.

As I have said before I think this council should be open to any group which wishes to join which serves a messaging function

The Psion
Sorry for coming late to the party all (there was a lot to read to get here too!), I've was working at a summer camp and internet access in the middle of the woods is a bit hard to come by

Anyway, the folks at MO/UO will be getting back to you in a day or two, and I would like to thank everyone for thinking of me, I'd love to have mystlive involved, I've been trying to make it more useful and accessible since I started working on it in May, so hopefully being part of the GoMess (as mentioned elsewhere) will be mutually beneficial.

I also wanted to add that I'd be happy to work on anything, I have a lot of experience with news writing and layout, so I'd be happy to help in that capacity if needed, just let me know!

Thanks again, and I'll keep watching here, and I'll be able to get into the Cavern again, so hopefully I'll see you all there as well!

Talk with everyone soon!

Lynnutte
Here is the list of people I have sent invitations to.

Samsbase - URU Radio
Stevecrox - The Cavern today
Ghaelen - Cavern Communicators Network
Mikefitz - URU Action News
Lord Chaos - Rooftop Volunteer Group
Thend - Ki Toons
Sumatria - Relayer Corps. I didn't want to send it to myself. lol
The Psion - Mystlive. I also contacted him for Myst Obsession and
he "passed it on to Dan'ni, Dusante and the whole gang over
at MO/UO". His words, not mine. lol

If anyone can think of a group or preson I have missed, please tell me so I can fix that. Thank you

Samsbase
where were these invites sent

Lynnutte
Ghaelen and The Psion were through MOUL messaging system. I know The Psion got the message because he answered. Last I checked, Ghaelen had not answered.
Thend was through MystObsession.
Myst Embassy, I sent an invite to BladeLakem through MOUL since he answered my post there looking for anyone from Myst Embassy.
MikeFitz, Stevecrox and Samabase through this forum.
Sumatria though Relayer Corps forum.
Lord Chaos, I believe his was through MOUL too, but he did not recieve my message. I was able to catch up with him at the "Under the Roots" Party tonight. He has requested I talk with him at a later time to discuss this. I told him to let me know where and when and I would do my best to be there.

Samsbase
... never got one

Lynnutte
I will resend it then.

The Psion

Lynnutte wrote:

Here is the list of people I have sent invitations

The Psion - Mystlive. I also contacted him for Myst Obsession and
he "passed it on to Dan'ni, Dusante and the whole gang over
at MO/UO". His words, not mine. lol

Hehehe, I still don't consider myself an important person over at MO/UO, so I passed the message onto the higher-ups, as I call them in my head, hehehe.

Lynnutte
All I can say is thank you for passing the buck.

Lord Chaos
Took me a while to track this down...

Best times for me to meet are on the weekends in the mid-day. Saturday evening I'm always with some friends. So, let me know when you want to do this council meeting and I'll try to be there.

My main interest in the Guild of Messengers is specialized. I need someone, or a group, to pubicize events. I'm good at doing the event but I'd rather not promote. I do it because I have to.

Secondary interest is that the GoMessengers is the most viable of the new Guilds, in my estimation. I see no need to form an "umbrella"organization, nor to bring all messenger-type activity into one management structure. What we do need is a single contact point for all Messenger activities: distributing videos, podcasts, running live feeds, Town Criers, KI mail and so on. Right now it's hard for any Explorer to know where to go to get Marten's videos, or to learn D'ni history and back story. The information is out there but all over the place. A single-page reference to all the other locations would be good. We could then tell Explorers "To learn more about this, go to web site X." Then they'd follow the links.

Production needs to be as free as possible. Distribution needs to be more consistent. You may have the best story in the world but if no one can find it they can't read it.

Lynnutte
I got a response from BladeLakem (Myst Embassy) and he has declined our invitation.
I talked with Thend (KItoons) and he will give us his answer in 3 days. Which leaves only ghaelen (CCN) to hear from. If anyone can contact her, please do so. I don't want her to feel I am harrassing her. If we don't hear from her by the time Thend gives us his answer, I say we start without her.
If there is anyone else we should ask to join, please give me their name and contact info. If not, we are almost ready to get this thing started.

We need to start making a list of questions and ideas we will need to discuss at the first meeting. I will start a new thread for that purpose. Please use the thread just to keep track of ideas and questions. Let save the comments and ideas for the meeting. Thank you.

Lynnutte
Thend has agreed to accept a seat on the council. Ghaelen did let me know that she got my message, but has not given me an answer as of yet.

Samsbase
is Ghalen the head of CCN ?

Stevecrox
Ann was the head of CCN but I haven't seen her online in sometime

Lynnutte
I my message to Ghaelen, I told her that CCN was invited to elect a representative to join that council. Ghaelen is just my contact for CCN.

Stevecrox
Judging by this post it looks like Ghaelen or anyone who is a part of CCN has no interest in any discussions which are outside of MO:UL. Lynette did you send the PM through the MO:UL forums and did Ghealen ever reply?

Personal expearence says they'll be intractable on this matter, we'd either have to move the entire conversation onto MOUL forums or they won't be interested.

Lynnutte
I did send the original message using MOUL. I did get a reply. She basically asked me to publically post the invitation. So I posted it on MOUL this morning. If for no other reason than to show them that we are not trying to hide what we are doing from anyone. I think that may have been one of the concerns, but I could be wrong.
We will see if they accept or not.

I agree with your assesment of them Steve. It will be either move it, or forget it.

Dudemom_2000
I think discussions should continue here and be posted on MOUL as well. That way no one feels left out. I see the other groups posting here as well as there. Quite frankly, the Messengers are conspicuously absent on MOUL now which might put off other potential members or smaller groups that may not immediately realize this site exists. No reason why things can't be double posted for now and eventually moved here as the guilds come into being. This is just something that I have been thinking about reading the posts here and on MOUL concerning the Guilds.

Update

The Psion
Sorry, I thought I chimed in with that, halvor is going to be representing MO/UO.

_________________

Last edited by Stevecrox on Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

Thanks for that wonderful suggestion, Dudemom, and thanks all for posting the AoG posts here. I see many statements in this long thread I agree or disagree with, but I am overwhelmed trying to quote them all, so I will just say my bit and apologize if it seems I don’t see your post. I do, and I’ll try to say that.

My personal opinions about a "council" may not be that of other CCN members, so I can’t speak for anyone but myself on this. But I have a personal concern that goes hand in hand with my work at CCN and this idea of a guild or pre-guild “council.” I feel as though this “council” is being hurried forward so fast that questions are not adequately being addressed. I don’t understand what the hurry is, or why CCN is being asked to answer so quickly about joining this “council.”

Any group has the right to meet, give itself a label, and claim any kind of authority it chooses without consulting me. And concerns about the labeling of a group with the word “council” does not equal disinterest in the guilds. But since any “official” guild is a long way off, I feel this is the time to think about consequences of a “council” and what impact it might have on existing group relations.

As one of the producers, writers, and editors of various programs at CCN, I work with other groups in the community to help promote their work by giving them some air time on these programs, talking about their work, or collaborating with them in a variety of different ways. It would never occur to me to tell them how to run their group or organization.

But let's just say that CCN agrees to send a representative and let's say that person is me (This does NOT mean I've been elected and is ONLY an example). Since the guilds are not "official," I join a “council” (that has no actual authority) which means CCN (in effect) joins this council (that has no actual authority). Now to me it looks like CCN is acting on the pretense that this council DOES have authority and so CCN has agreed to elevate itself to a superior, decision-making position.

That's the crux of my concern. The groups we work with are our peers, not our subordinates, and we’ve worked hard to develop the cooperative relationships we have with them. In as sense, we already have a existing network in which various groups operate on equal footing. What would a joining a “council” do for me, for CCN, or to this existing network?

I would rather continue to read for a while what different ideas individuals and groups have to present about the Guild of Messengers. Those ideas have been original and creative. I'd prefer to listen to what each group has to say about what they do and what kind of working relationships they have or want to have with other groups. (I’m with you on that, Eleri)

I see different people meeting here and now they are working together or planning to do so. Why not try building on or enhancing THOSE relationships, and THEN start theorizing about ways in which a Guild might develop out of the network? Maybe by “working” together we'll all better understand how those relationships might become the basis for a guild.

But to me a "council" right now would introduce a top-down influence that could stop that from happening. Maybe someone hesitates to make a move until the council says so, or something like that. New explorers may easily (mis-) perceive that the “council” appears "official" even if it is not. Even the passive acceptance by this "council" as holding "official" status could aversely affect newly established working relationships. Council members would have to spend a lot of time making statements to avoid appearing “official.” On the other hand, some council members might WANT to look “official” and create problems by overt or covert attempts to further the appearance of an "official" and “authoritative” status purely for their own personal reasons.

Other members of CCN may feel quite differently than I do, so again I speak only for me as a working member of that organization. There are simply too many unknown variables right now for me, personally, to decide on this issue so quickly. I have too many questions to ask just now, but will ask them as the timing seems right.

_________________
We are the shapers and the caretakers of this metaverse. How we honor ourselves and others largely determines what we bring into being.

A story: CavernScents Journey

Ghaelen: KI# 23059

I understand the concern over pre-guilds/whatever they may be called. My opinion, however, is that it can't hurt to try. In the end, we're ALL going to have these groups get crushed and re-formed under the DRC's/Cyan's system. What we do now may only form the foundations for what's to come. Or perhaps Cyan has something wholly different. The thing for me now (regardless of guild, this applies to all pre-whatevers) is that we should all try if for no other reason than to gather and get to know those who are interested in the same Guild. Whatever groups form now may seem as though they have authority or power, they may even start working as a guild would (making ages, maps, or passing messages) but in the end this will all be one thing. And I trust that Cyan will come up with, or use good ideas. We have the power to start working on those ideas. That's why I think we must try.

_________________
-Whilyam

I like what you are saying here, even if I disagree with some of it.

Whilyam wrote:

I understand the concern over pre-guilds/whatever they may be called. My opinion, however, is that it can't hurt to try.

Aside from the actual work many groups are already DOING, I think talking and envising IS trying, since you can't be or do something without being able to see yourself being or doing that which you envision. The statements people make reflect what they are envisioning. If their very first statements include "rules, regulations, and certain groups/individuals can/can't vote" I see in those statements someone who envisions a structure of control. Do they see themselves doing the controlling as well? I don't know, but I believe it will become clear in subsequent statements.

However, if the statements made are about helping each other, working together, meeting, discussing, and taking action as equals (groups AND individuals), then I see in those statements a vision of links, networks, cooperation and collaboration that is building a mutually beneficial structure. What leadership develops only develops as it is needed and out of those groups/individuals involved in the DOING. It is a large circle with many openings. Occasionally some people will be elected to stand in the center and bring the many ideas together, note ideas, and take them back to the large circle. But those people in the center are not the ones who have a mind to STAY there, nor do they worry whether anyone is in the center or not. The people who come to the center are there only until the task is done, then they return to the large circle and resume working as equals to everyone else. Next time someone else might be asked to stand in the center. No one owns that center position.

The imposition of structure from the top-down or center-out carries with it ONLY the visions of those FEW who claim AUTHORITY to determine what that structure SHOULD look like. The circle is small and closed with a self-selected group in the center who do not easily yeild their place. THIS membership is tightly controlled. It alone determines how large the outside circle is and how many/few openings there are. There is less free movement from center to periphery, and without spaces for new people/ideas, potential developments may be completely ignored.

Quote:

In the end, we're ALL going to have these groups get crushed and re-formed under the DRC's/Cyan's system. What we do now may only form the foundations for what's to come. Or perhaps Cyan has something wholly different.

This is an excellent way to say it. This cannot be said OFTEN ENOUGH. I do feel that a structure built from the ground up/circle inward will be less adversely affected than those who have for any length of time, stood concretely in the center. There is already flexibility and movement with an open structure, which can then much more easily adapt to any change in direction.

Quote:

And I trust that Cyan will come up with, or use good ideas. We have the power to start working on those ideas. That's why I think we must try.

I agree. I have listed to concerns that the guilds will be left hanging like the liaisons were (well, the "council" or "masters" will be left on their own). I do think Cyan/DRC learned a lot from that.

But think about it -- if a large network of groups and individuals is collaborating, cooperating, adapting to new ideas and running on its own, what difference does it make if there is a change in "official" direction? If they are all having fun, they will have fun with that as well. We know something official is coming; we KNOW change is coming -- let's keep doing our work, having fun, and let any guild "leadership" evolve slowly out of what people are and will be doing. The GOG have been working on their own for years. Their example of self-direction and self-management is a good one to follow, I think.

_________________
We are the shapers and the caretakers of this metaverse. How we honor ourselves and others largely determines what we bring into being.

A story: CavernScents Journey

Ghaelen: KI# 23059

I have updated the posts with todays postings, if you scroll through you will see Update in bold and big letters just read from there. I'll move the phrase each time I update things. Again to make things simplier I point everyone interested in discussing this to the address below

http://www.uruguilds.org/uruguilds/viewforum.php?f=33

_________________

While I would rather see your whole posts on the MOUL forum and not have to preview them elsewhere through a link I did read the latest post. Is this the complete list you are working with? It looks like a very short list. I would suggest we open the discussion to many more messengers and go from there. Please read posts from Ireenqueench and Dude Mom.

Thank you

Ruby

_________________
Cavern Communications Network Twitter:CCNDownUnder - Borrowed from Mr. Lewis Carroll: What is the use of a book, without pictures or conversations? KI 379788, Twitter: Ruby_ODegee

The reason the discussions started over on the AoG was because there was no "guilds" forum here. It was also an easy way for people to organise discussions.

there was no exclusivity about posting there, and the location of the forums has been advertised on multiple occasions as well as the normal word of mouth spreading of information.

_________________
The ending will never be written as long as the called remain to continue on the path of those who came before

_________________
ô¿ô......All URU need is love!......ô¿ô