Myst Online: URU Live Forums :: View topic - Second pre-GOM meeting chatlog

Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 163

@ Whilyam

Ruby/Ahvree has never appreciated anyone using her name in cavern or on the MOUL forums. The name has never been made a cavern avie name.

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Abathyr

Joined: 07 Mar 2007

Posts: 50

Thanks for posting the logs. I was there for most of the meeting, and really really wanted a chance to share my ideas of the Guild but I had to leave after Whilyam started. It just went too long.

I agree that the Q&A format is good sometimes, but in this case, a short overview would have been sufficient from each person. We needed to get everyone's ideas out on the floor for consideration, not beat one person's ideas to death. Since many of us did not get a chance to share, I'd like to see another meeting of this kind, an overview meeting where people can give their CONCISE and GENERAL ideas of the Guild. Specifics and details can be got into later.

And I really agree with leaving the bickering and personal stuff at the door. A lot of time was wasted with the two combatants going at each other, both of whom seemed to come in with a lot of baggage I had no knowledge of, both already bristling at each other and spoiling the atmosphere of collaboration.

I do understand that people are feeling threatened, that the fear of being taken over, left out, or devalued is topmost for the groups/individuals already in existance. Fear makes people angry. In forming a collaborative group like this, those fears need to be addressed, but they should not dominate the meetings or drag down the entire atmosphere of the group.

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Ahvree

Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 133

Location: Florida

@ Posters who read the chat logs. Remember some of us did not know about any bickering (other than my name issue). Apparently the moderator has chosen to release chat that was private between the mod and a speaker in the room. I didn't know that this speaker(s) felt a certain way. You will notice there is no response. It has to be one sided, because I had no idea it was going on. I did not read the response the speaker made until this morning. I am still not sure where the "bickering references" are made, but I am reading the logs now with my coffee and doughnut.

I have to leave for awhile and will come back to post again, if there is anything story I/C worth using for a "confessions" in the creative thread. Otherwise, I thought the meeting was about the concerns of one speaker (for the most part). Several explorers did not even get a chance to speak at all.

I glady would have given up my chance to speak, if I had known my time could be given to someone else with something supportive to say.

So.....reminder....I am still reading what is that I am supposed to be concerned/upset Shocked

about. I think... Confused

/ROTFL

I do love a good cavern story. Tension, intrigue, drama, or just plain chat that got spilled over in the forum, because someone forgot to edit out the personal PM stuff. Oh dearie Laughing

EDIT - Later after re-reading the log ---now I see. oops, well so it goes...

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Rusty_Russell

Joined: 25 May 2006

Posts: 9836

Location: Luton, UK

Abathyr wrote:

And I really agree with leaving the bickering and personal stuff at the door. <snip> both of whom seemed to come in with a lot of baggage

To my friends in both TCT and CCN, I see that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Ahvree

Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 133

Location: Florida

Abathyr wrote:

A lot of time was wasted with the two combatants going at each other, both of whom seemed to come in with a lot of baggage I had no knowledge of, both already bristling at each other and spoiling the atmosphere of collaboration.

How much time and who were the combatants? I have no idea what or who you are talking about? This is a virtual world. How does the atmosphere get spoiled? I really want to know, because I think it is very interesting that so many ppl have a love/hate relationship with drama.

Of course I missed most of it. As I said prior, I did not see the speaker's remarks about a group in the cavern he did not like until this morning. I was so busy with my avie issues, and trying to type my 2 questions I did not have time to be concerned with the "combat." I must have missed the whole thing Rolling Eyes

. Oh well, Ruby has never been the most agile explorer, and she is very clumsy. By the way, whoever it was I ran into at the podium, I am sorry Embarassed

. I had no intention of "launching" her/myself deliberately in that direction.

Ruby
Ahvree

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Dudemom_2000

Joined: 27 Sep 2006

Posts: 1503

Location: Columbus, Ohio

Ok. Back to our topic..... This was a very long night but I think well worth it. Everyone had something to say - a lot of good things were expressed. Granted, some got more to say than others, but everyone did get a chance. The two who had comments that impressed me greatly and pretty much reflect my philosophy on this whole issue were ireen and Thend.

I took another look at the immense chatlog and excerpted ireen's statement and Thend's to quote here. (I did take out everything else except the statements that were made and cleaned them up for mispellings etc - it is hard when you have to type all that and fast! So if I made any errors ireen or Thend, please let me know) To me they pretty much said it all.

The statements are as follows:

ireenquench said:

Quote:

My approach is currently the following: How can the explorer be in the loop? Explorers want different things, some want raw info, some processed, some want it in the cavern, others elsewhere. How can different types of formats be developed that accomodate different types of explorers? First of all, much more has to be available in the cavern; many explorers come here and want to catch up. Relaying is good but we need more. We need for people who link down a little later to be able to catch up without them having to know all the folks that are in the loop, just any explorer, even the quietest one needs to know where to go to get his news. Aside from surface formats, I think the cavern formats need most work - currently unfortunately the KI is limited but it works allright for now; imagers work too, mostly.

I don't want to make this any longer now... but I belive a key is to get together in groups and develop those cavern formats on organizing and structure. I am not good at thinking up big plans. I can't see that far ahead and I think its currently not even necessary to come up with these meta structures. I think structures can evolve around the formats for now. Formats work certain ways, because of technicalities, the needs of the consumers, and the abilities and ideas of the messaging folk. These formats should be the base of which structures evolve for now... Let the people develop them, so I think the next step would be to have a gathering... To brainstorm about formats both from the messenger's and the consumer's perspective and then start working on them, even if some things may be an experiment and it will go from there. Done.

Thend said:

Quote:

I think many of the services available through organizations here could have a Cavern equivalent...

The whole point of what is done on web is certered around the Cavern anyway, and as ireen said, many, many folks just come down here to be filled in, not to just be pointed back to where they came from, a weblink...
I can see podcasts, radio stuff, newsletters, interviews, etc, being produced down here as a show, events, drawing more people in. Much of the services are 'preaching to the converted,' we need new explorers in the Cavern, and when they get here, to find info and that it's an interesting place.... At best, folks will like these In-Cavern shows' content and check out the larger amount of stuff in their leisure on the Surface.
I wanna mention some stuff from my own experience... KI Chain, started on the fly, filled a need last episode, was not complicated, had to be over-talked - just got ireen in the loop and did the thing, and folks, from what I hear, responded favorably...

See a need, fill it...

Another thing. It wasn't ONLY to keep explorers in the loop down here, but to empower each and every one...
I've heard alotta talk about how 'regular' explorers are just that, somehow seperate from the 'organization'...
Thing is, I think that those same explorers have the same views as the organizations sometimes do of them, too...
With KI Chain, EVERY expolorer participated, who wished to. To my mind, and I say officially under the Explorers Appreciation Society (EASY, aka Slipcrackers...) That they are NOW and 'organization' as well, and thus deserve equal representation, if one chooses to look at explorers as seperate in any way...

This hierchy thing - the DRC will impose that. We need, as ireen said again, to see how we can SERVE the Cavern,IN-Cavern. Nothing more... Popularity, and one thing becoming the norm over another? Hah. I started out with nothing there way back, but my method hasn't changed at all... I saw stuff that I wanted to see, and talked to enough folks In-Cavern and saw that it might be something THEY wanted to see as well, and so just did it... You can't forcefeed anything here. It's a mistake to think otherwise... People gravitate to what they wish, that's choice, free-market, Non-monopoly... This is not to say that you don't need to put in a lot of effort to get things done, like a newsboy on a street corner yelling 'EXTREE EXTREE!' But if it's not something folks want, then you can't become a nuisance either...
That's about it. Everything I've experienced has gone this way, for the most part. See what is missing, fill it, if it's as needed as you think, it'll be picked up... Just bring it back to the Cavern. I'm all talked out now lol Next?

I am not for structure until the DRC gives us that structure. I think was said above is the way for everyone to work together, include everyone in the information process. This is not about me, myself, my organization, your organization, me or you as an independent, me or you under an umbrella.....this is about ALL of us and working together to get the information out. We all have something to share. What we all do already is proof of it. So let's help everyone involved and fill what is missing.....

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veralun

Uru Live Moderator

Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 4465

Thanks Ireen for posting the complete chatlog.
My intention was to stay the complete meeting, but after waiting 3 hours and sitting with my ideas and suggestions about a GOM pretyped I had enough and needed some sleep (not strange if it 4 in the night).
Possible my request to speak was not heard, because I got the impression that ppl who came in later were be able to say their thing.
I enjoyed the good suggestions from some speakers. Talking and bringing up ideas and suggestions in this stage of a GOM is good. I think the words from Dr. Watson were heard in this meeting, atleast by the most.
There is still a long way to go to make the GOM to a succesfull Guild.

But I also saw some sad things. Not only at this meeting but it already showed up at the start discussing a GoM on these forums.
I never saw the name CCN mentioned so many times as in these forums. Also in the meeting the name came again.
What do ppl know about CCN? Did you all know that the N means Network?
As a member of the CCN I like to explain again (some others did that before) that CCN is not an organisation. It is a Network. CCN is trying to bring the Cavern and the Community together.
We do that by giving ppl a possibility to show their creative skills, which can be: filming, editing, photography, play, song, poetry, sketches, music, say all forms of creativity which exist in ppl.
Also it is a school for learning these things. It is open for all suggetions. As long as it is positive and usefull for the community.
But we are also independant ppl. Each of us has their own qualities and skills. Each of us has their own creativities and personalities.
CCN has the tools and materials which can be used by all these independant members. That is the only connection between us.
We like to keep that in that way.
When the discussions about the GOM started, CCN was from the beginning mentioned as an organisation. Because they needed reps from organsations we never could send one from CCN, just because they do not exist. Again we are all our own reps.
It was explained before, but I have the impression ppl did not want to hear that.
They keep seeing CCN as an organisation.

Eleri wrote:

If the TCT and CCN animosity keeps being an issue, then they really both need to bow gracefully out of the Guild of Messengers arena until they can be in the same space without problems.

When I read this it makes me sad. This is how ppl want to see it. And it shows also ppl have no clue were they are talking about. We are all ppl who try to do our best to make something positive from the GOM. We are all individuals with our own skills, qualities and personalities. We do not have to love eachother. There needs to be space for eachothers opinion, aslong as you can respect eachother. By writing things like this ppl get hurt. I am sure that is not the intention, but it are concequences if ppl write down these words. I agree personal matters needs to resolve through PM's and not in a group or on these forums.
So please stop making suggestions there is a war between TCT and CCN. We disagree on certain points. I respect the work from others. I only cannot always accept it. Sometimes I disagree with others. And I am sure others will have the same.
Nothing wrong with that. And again did Dr. Watson not mention something about that?
So talking constantly about the differences between people, groups or whatever does not contribute to a contructive discussion about a GOM.
If you want a succesfull GOM you need to cooperate, and I think each of us is prepared to do that.

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ghaelen

Joined: 11 May 2006

Posts: 764

Location: Guild of Healers' (Forthcoming) Age

Thank you Dudemom, for the summaries. I have a great deal of respect for all the groups trying to make this work. My thoughts below have to do with individual actions.

I question the wisdom of anyone who would post private messages of an antagonistic nature within a public chatlog as Lynnutte did to open this thread. Since much of the chat was deleted, those statements were left in deliberately. To what end? What kind of a council could this possibly become if the moderators now choose what discussions are important and when they get heard? And if they were so important, why not relay them to the group immediately?

Statements like those at the beginning set the tone for the entire thread, which in this case seemed a convenient set-up to support the cry of “bickering.” I saw no bickering in any other chatlog, only disagreements and due requests for respect of personal names. But even as I read some very good ideas in Ireen’s chatlogs, I was already disturbed that anyone would take it upon themselves to decide for all of us that one person’s “intent to antagonize a group” was important enough to know, but only after nothing could be done about that intent. The person at whom the clubs were swung had no idea the clubs were swinging… (And no one was there representing that "group," so the clubs were aimed at a person)

Enough is enough. I agree that organizations should BOW OUT as organizations. ALL organizations. No organizations allowed in any council, no, better yet, no organizations allowed in the future guild. No moderators from any organizations, either.

If I were to support any rule, it would be that only individual explorers speak, and speak only for themselves. They create their projects themselves, let them moderate themselves. I believe people are capable of governing themselves. Democracy is time-consuming and messy. Talk is messy. Creativity is messy. You might have to get used to it.

There were several very promising ideas in the discussion. Those I am reading again. Today a discussion will also take place, outside a “council” setting. 12:00 Cavern Time, Kirel. Come and talk. Laugh. Argue if you wish. I am curious to see how it goes.

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Anthony

Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 62

Location: Its a secret

While agree that there no harm was meant, I apologize again I truly did not know, I use my real name in the cavern as part of the u r u thing so thought nothing of it. In the end you ask the impossible even if not officially the person would still be representing there group. People are not robots that can drop there opinions at the door and even if they could they would still be seen as representing their group whether or not they do as ruby has seen. So its just best to leave it as is and continue on and just try to work things out.

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Ahvree

Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 133

Location: Florida

@ Anthony

With due respect some of us at CCN (we do not speak with a monolithic opinion) would like not to be pushed into accepting a structure that is not ours, and never was. While it is true that one cannot separate themselves from opinions, our opinions are not the same at CCN. We are a network.

TCT uses a different structure (or at least they did when I was there), The Relayers another, Sam and Thend are one man shows, as is my Lakewater documentaries or Tyion's JOTC's. They probably handle productions differently from me, and have completely different perspectives about technical matters, I/C or OOC. I had no idea until you all started talking about the GOM, TCT was even interested in I/C. It was news to me, but its fine.

CCN cannot show up at a meeting. I showed up as myself and was singled out, but I did not know that until today. Interestingly (and oddly), I am not offended. The cavern has toughened me up a little in the last two years since the DRC elections. I am not nearly so sensitive as I used to be. I see the good and the not so good --- I can giggle at both. For me it is story in a shared universe, and I don't have to be here, if I can't take what's silly or just plain nutty, attention grabbing remarks that mean nothing in the long term.

As you aptly state, let us all just move on now. We now know who can't moderate or who might. We know a council is one way to prohibit discussion among many. We know who we are, but we have yet to hear from who matters - all those new explorers. If there is anyone out there who still does not understand who CCN is and is not, you can look here

http://caverncommunicationsnetwork.com/ccnblog/

but I have the feeling it isn't all that important. The 3 ring circus is always more fascinating. Ruby always says she is just a carney barker at heart (even though she never sets out to be on purpose Rolling Eyes

). She is going noplace, but where she always will be until the cave door closes. Uru is her home.

EDIT - and I am sure you meant no harm. Thank you for saying so. Smile

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Lynnutte

Joined: 16 Nov 2006

Posts: 1349

Location: Most likely in the cavern somewhere.

Thank you Ireen for posting that. I was going to correct that this morning, but you already beat me to it. Very Happy

I think last nights meeting went really well, eventhough it did go WAY too long. I sure it has given everyone something to think about.
I hope this has been helpful for everyone to see where their ideas are good, where they need work, and also to see what others have thought of that they might not have. If this meeting leads to more talks and finding how we can all work together, and compromise, to make the GOM a reality, then I will be one happy camper.

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Eleri

Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 1604

Location: Seattle, WA

When I said "Bow Out", I did not mean, in any way, that these groups should be banned and never allowed to be part of the GoMe ever ever, or anything so drastic as that. It was a call for a time out, and some thought.

Nor was my assesment based on this single chat log, as people seem to be assuming.

Over the course of this whole "Guild of Messengers" thing, I have seen dynamics between members of the two groups that appear to be creating a barrier to clear communication, and unbiased asessment of ideas.

If those groups can't work past that, then building a working Guild Of Messengers is going to come to an impasse, if people are trying to adapt to a conflict. Do we have to all like each other? Good greif, no. Do we need people who can set aside their issues for a larger good? Yes. And when I see things like one 'side' calling the other 'side' names, then I worry that the conflict is getting in the way.

And as far as "ppl have no clue were they are talking about", I would guess that I have more clue about just how easily conflict can bring a group down than some.

Also... it doesn't matter if a person is there as a representative of a group or not...If animosity over another group is colouring your individual behaviour, it's still an issue. Using "I'm not with X" doesn't help.

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ireenquench

Uru Live Moderator

Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 1591

After this meeting, I think the following is the case.

I believe the main issue is the following: there are currently have completely different approaches towards the discussion of Guild of Messengers, what to discuss even.
Please note that I am talking about approaches and perspectives, not individuals or groups. In fact it seems to me that many individuals have more that one of the approaches described below.

Workers with a Vision
One perspective is that of folks are already active with certain formats, they are already doing their jobs/ their products/what they like. They plan on keeping doing it and want to keep on doing it as they are or have circumstances for their work improved. So these people – naturally – are more interested in moving past the basics of “what can we do” (they are already doing that) and so discuss the bigger plans, like how the entire guild structure and the inner workings of collaboration could look like, so building that is their current interest.
Then there is a variety of other perspectives on what should currently be discussed.
Helper perspective – This perspective expressed want to help out to make information flow smoother, includes the wish to be involved, they want to know what they can do, preferably now.
Consumer perspective – In this perspective people express their wishes of how they would like to access news. They want to be as best informed as they can, in an easy way and with a free choice of medium and format. In some ways they are afraid of a change in how a future guild structure or guild work might hinder them, as consumers, in their preferred access.
Visions, generalMore abstract ideas about a guild, stemming from, again different interests: interest in effective work, interest in community, interest in creativity, wanting to shape the game
What’s currently missing – seeing needs, wishing to develop new formats or add on to them.

I think these types could be completely reformed, to make discussions easier in the future:

A Content maker perspective (people who want the news about their events etc out, like people who have an independent storyline going, who want to get folks interested in Jalak games, who have a dance event or, the other guilds...etc, and... I am hesitating here...this could even include existing media producers):
“How does info about my content get to the interested public in the best way?”

B Consumer perspective:
“How do I want to get my information in the best way? What kinds of different formats of getting info would suit me and others?”

And there is C, the GoMess supporters perspective (those who might want to join and work in the guild):
“How can I help types A and B?” (And for those with already existing formats ”How can my product help A and B even better?”

I think A and B should explicitly be invited to any discussions pertaining the future GoMess.
Listening to A and B is very important here.

I also think everybody should try to remain open... don't get your buttons pushed, don't push others if you can't help it and try to let the past rest, be matter-of-fact, focus on work only. Maybe mediation is also an option.

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Last edited by ireenquench on Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:06 am; edited 1 time in total

Samsbase

Joined: 09 May 2006

Posts: 1044

Location: Brighton and hove england

ok. I will make 1 comment on the "problem" in the meeting.

Myself and Anthony truly had no awareness of using your name being an insult to you and Anthony (As the only person that used it) issued an apology afterwards.

You must understand that we are not perfect and we cannot be mind readers/ or read every post someone makes. I have never seen you posting that you require people not to use your real name IC or in the MOUL forums. Others of the community (myself included) use our real names on a regular basis without issue, I understand your perspective however the mistake was an honest one and was apologised for. On that note, none of us are perfect, and before taking offence that quickly remember both sides of the coin and things some people have chosen not to make public before taking such offence at an honest mistake.

Also no one can claim that they do not speak at least partially with their organisations hat on. TCT never say they are not speaking with a TCT hat on and myself and Thend and others often are construed as bias towards our organisations ethos which I will not combat seeing as we cannot deny the fact that that ethos we work from is made out of our own opinions in the first place.

No one that works with another person to produce their content can be considered an individual in this particular debate. I am not an individual, I have had help from another explorer as well as one company and another individual getting URU Radio on air. I may have the only creative control over the project however without help, I would not have a website, any server space, a shoutcast stream, the list continues.

Read from here:

I apologise for spending an hour giving my ideas, however the questions did keep coming and I did honor them with an answer each I hope you understand Smile

I think we need to some how settle this debate by each of us refining our ideas and then posting them as a formal single post this single post would be our official contribution to the discussion and that can be commented on. My idea has been refined (as you could see by what I said at the meeting) since I officially wrote it and I will be rewriting my stickied post to accommodate this. I think if everyone could write a post in this style we could more effectively see what each persons individual contribution is to the discussion and act accordingly.

thanks

sam

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Lynnutte

Joined: 16 Nov 2006

Posts: 1349

Location: Most likely in the cavern somewhere.

Woah! I really need to make sure there isn't more in a thread before I post.
First off, I want to address ghaelen accusing me of posting something I shouldn't have, deliberately. I am still new at posting chatlogs and learning what should and should not be posted. I deeply apologize if I posted anything I shouldn't have. Also, It was 9:30pm here when the meeting was finished, I had kids and a husband who still had not eaten dinner, and I had been up since 4am that morning. So before you accuse me of "delibreately" posting anything that I shouldn't have, you might want to check with me to make sure that is what happened. If it was intentional, I'll tell you.
As for the "bickering", the only thing I can think of, would be when 2 participance had trouble yielding the floor so someone else could speak.
Until I learn more about what should and should not be posted on a forum, I will leave it to someone else. The only reason I posted it was because I had Dudemom and Ireenquench ask me to. Not because I wanted to start a flame war or make anyone look bad

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