In my view of the GoM there isn't a need for votes. It's not a legislature.
Start point - "Spread the word!"
And the word was accurate, timely and unbiased - and everybody received it - and all of the news organisations played a part in its spread.

[Say there is a big event to publicise, like the first new age from the GoW. CCN says, well, we could.... and TCT says, so, why don't we...? etc etc. You get my drift.]

Rusty_Russell wrote:

Quote:

Forcing it to need a group of rulers at this point just doesn't make sense to me. It is this I have a problem with.

The guild of messagers doesn't need rulers. It's not a governing body but a co-ordinating one, maximising the efficiency of the dissemination of information, having a view of all message media, making sure that everyone is informed in an accurate, timely, unbiased manner by whatever means.

ghaelen, if I understand you correctly, your root objection is that you see the GoM as telling CCN what to do, if CCN participates. It's not the job of the GoM to tell anyone what to do.

No, Rusty. That's not my root objection.

My root objection is bursting out of the starting gate with the statement "we need rules, regulations, and votes. We need a council." I mean, look at the Messengers Thread "Quick Resource list" It's all about rules, regulations, council members, etc. These are resources?

The rest of my objection stems from getting so much flak for the answer to this question: "will CCN send a rep to possibly be elected to the pre-GoM council?" My personal answer has been: "We don't need a council." For some reason that answer isn't good enough.

Besides, I don't think a true guild developed in the spirit of Uru would tell any organizations what to do. I don't know that I see the guild approaching an organization at all. I see guild members communicating with guild members about how to fill a need. Some members may be a part of an organization and I hear them saying. "Well, I don't do that," or "I can't do that alone," let me see if I can get some help for this task. But I don't see that happening often either, because people who perform those types of tasks may well already be in the guild.

Members of organizations could well be members in different guilds, too. To me guilds and organizations are coffee and tea. Both are hot and good to drink. IF you like coffee or tea. (If you like fruit juices, go to the fruit juice guild.) But I wouldn't pour coffee or tea together in the same cup and drink it. Each has their own place, just not mixed all together.

Quoting Rusty:

Quote:

[Say there is a big event to publicise, like the first new age from the GoW. CCN says, well, we could.... and TCT says, so, why don't we...? etc etc. You get my drift.]

Actually not around from org to org, but within the guilds themselves. Here comes a message from the GoW:
"OK all, our newest GoW Age is out! We need the messengers to help talk about it!
Whoosh goes the message to the Guild of Messengers. Someone posts it to the Forum/Pub Imager:

"Hey! The Newest Age from the GoW is out! Let's tell that story! What do we need?"
Whoosh goes the message around the guild. Other messengers (with experience in this type of story) pipe in: "We need"

photographers
writers for the forums and KImail
people to spread KImail in the cavern
writers to write script for audio
voices to record the story
videographers
audio/video editors
assemblers
and a broadcast pipeline (hood/relto imagers, music player, watchers pub imager, etc.

The people who know how to do each of these things step up to do them or help do them if they are busy with something else. Maybe this event will be the teaching event for new videographers or voice recording. Maybe new guild members get to practice sending out KImail. Since this won't be the only story the messengers cover, there will probably be all sorts of things happening at once.

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Ghaelen: KI# 23059

Quietly sneaking back in if I may...

Maybe you need to establish the criteria needed to become a card carrying member of the guild before you start forming a list of rules or issuing blanket statements.

Will membership be judged by the size of your individual organizations, the amount of subscribers, the length of time you have been in the cavern, or will it be the friends that you know that will make you an official member. Try to make these terms broad and generous to begin with, in order to include as many groups as possible- leaving the door open to the creation of stricter rules in the future if need be. Six month trial periods are not unheard of. There are no rules that say you can't rethink the process at a later date. Right now - there are no rules!!! And you can't make them until you figure out how to merge everyone under the same roof. The DRC/Cyan has not given any of the guilds a deadline to complete the guild structures. Don't have to be complete tomorrow or the next day. They are sitting back and watching all of you do an excellent imitation of the "Shoot Out at the OK Corral" and quietly waiting to see who is left standing when the dust clears...

For the time being wouldn't it be more productive to step back and re-think your collective idea for the justification of even needing a guild, (not your personal interest, even though they are very important), and work on the fundamentally simple issues rather than the far reaching and more specific ones. Let a simple yeah or nay from "all" of you be counted and you will be able to slowly build the underlying foundation as it becomes necessary. You may find you do not need any "Guild Masters" for many months- but when the time arises that you do- you may in a much better position to make those choices.

At this point in time with all four new guilds forming at the same time- are you even sure what all of your responsibilities will be? How will you have to integrate and work with the other new guilds being established at the same time. I'm not sure any of us know exactly what the DRC/Cyan is going bring to the table. We don't know what their plans are or how each of these entities will be put to use. Seems it may be better to just begin to assemble as a group, share ideas, and let the future guide your way.

_________________
"Always consider the Whole, Atrus. Always look at the interrelatedness of things and remember the 'whole' of one thing is always just a part of something else, something larger." wisely spoken by Anna- "The Book of Atrus"

Actually in general I agree Jenine we should have a fairly loose definition of what a media producer is to start with and narrow it as we get a better idea of what is needed. But the guild will need some kind of organization at the top to keep running. I don't say a ruling body but an administrative one. To make sure things keep rolling; that the news is going to the outlets; that cyan or the drc was contacted; that the site is up to date; that sort of stuff.

As for not needing code of conduct I'm sorry but if you wait till an event comes up and its needed its to late. A guild like this is going to have to be held to a higher standard then the average explorer. It must be above reproach in its actions and be ready to handle actions that are not. So its a very valid thing to think of at this point.

_________________

Unless specifically stated otherwise all posts by me are my own and not official TCT statements or policy.

Anthony wrote:

As for not needing code of conduct I'm sorry but if you wait till an event comes up and its needed its to late. A guild like this is going to have to be held to a higher standard then the average explorer. It must be above reproach in its actions and be ready to handle actions that are not. So its a very valid thing to think of at this point.

Just out of curiosity, why? Because it is 'the media'? No one has even come up with that much of a job description. Is it the Media, or is it Messengering? Is the GoM planning on being responsible for The News and Reporting, or is it Couriers, Relayers & Heralds?

If it is to be The Media, where does the checks and balances of not having a monopoly on News come in?

Are the standards of the existing Uru 'media' not enough? Is the standard of Thou Shalt Not Be A Jerk not enough? And just who is going to decide what Conduct needs coded? Only those pertaining to the work of the GoM? Shouldn't we know what work is going to be done, before you start telling people what conduct standard they have to live up to?

Increasingly, it looks very much like a Cart before a Horse. Hopefully the work that people like Janine and Shim are doing will actually find what the cavern needs from a GoM

_________________
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Storyteller & Creatrix
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Quote:

No one has even come up with that much of a job description. Is it the Media, or is it Messengering? Is the GoM planning on being responsible for The News and Reporting, or is it Couriers, Relayers & Heralds?

I would say all of it. The title messaging is fairly vague anyway. I would think that all of those things, the media, Reporting, couriering, Relaying, all of it fits into the 'job description'. In any case, I don't think anytone should be limited really. AS long as it fits in the boundaries of the Media/messaging, as long as it can somehow be gotten to the community, and as long as they have the means to do it and are willing to actually do it and produce something in some way, it should be considered a possible 'job'. The boundaries should be flexible, and we should allow those from the community who wish to be a part of the Guild to decide what job they would like, within those fairly vague criteria. That's more or less how The Archiver operates, and I think it works.

Quote:

If it is to be The Media, where does the checks and balances of not having a monopoly on News come in?

I'm not entirely sure about this. Are you saying the GoMe would stop others producing news. I don't see how it would be able to, unless you simply mean in the sense that people simply stopped reading non-GoMe news in favour of the official (or at least more 'prestigious' non officialness ) news sources. In which case, this would likely happen with the official GoME, anyway. But, again, people are free to join the GoMe if they want, and continue to mroe or less be independent.

Quote:

Are the standards of the existing Uru 'media' not enough? Is the standard of Thou Shalt Not Be A Jerk not enough? And just who is going to decide what Conduct needs coded? Only those pertaining to the work of the GoM? Shouldn't we know what work is going to be done, before you start telling people what conduct standard they have to live up to?

There's no real reason not to. It doesn't have to be long or complicated, just a simple standar that we all purport to subscribe to, that is in writing and is there for all to see. Regardless of what work needs to be done (again, 'work', I think is fairly non-specific, and would, for the moment at least, simply have its foundations in the communications structures that already exist), I think there needs to be some simple set of guidlines to stop people abusing power, becoming elitist, or simply being a 'jerk', as you so aptly put it. I see enough abuse of the media, etc, in real life to not want to give it any chance at all in the cavern. It hasn't yet, and I don't want it to in the future.

_________________
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The views expressed by me are my own, and do not represnt those of The Archiver, or TCT, unless explicitly stated as such.

MOUL KI: 13986530

ghaelen wrote:

will CCN send a rep to possibly be elected to the pre-GoM council?"

Thanks, ghaelen. I want to divorce myself from the rules, regulations, votes part of the GoM. I've never been arguing with you with that in mind.

Rusty_Russell wrote:

will CCN send a rep to participate on the pre-GoM council?"

(You might choose to vote amongst yourselves as to who it would be - or just take it in turns).

GoM has to be an inclusive organisation by definition - inclusive of all of the in-cavern communications media.

For what reason do you "really need" a code of conduct. I met many of your group- and will they forget the treats at a meeting, stand on their heads while speeches are being given? Or be jumping off the balcony onto the imager? Just joking... No restrictions have ever been on any of the current news organizations to this point and I'm not sure any need to have anyone telling them how to run their business.

So, are you asking for integrity and morality? Hummmm, much harder to ask for- since it is not a tangible element. My views of morality and integrity may be very different from yours and that may be another hot bed issue debating what it is... I'm not comfortable with great news organizations that claim to be fair and balanced... Seems those are the ones that may be just the opposite. Besides one guild member should not be able to use the guild as a forum to accuse other guild members of "personal" choices within the guild structure. Those disputes would be better handled in an informal or neutral and personal environment away from the main gatherings.

On the other hand if you are asking for rules of conduct pertaining to public guild meetings- then that is another issue and agreeing on a way to communicate at a meeting only requires someone to volunteer to moderate and working up a list of everyone's planned discussion points ahead of time and agree to stick with them. Many of you know how to handle this much better than I do.

_________________
"Always consider the Whole, Atrus. Always look at the interrelatedness of things and remember the 'whole' of one thing is always just a part of something else, something larger." wisely spoken by Anna- "The Book of Atrus"

Rusty_Russell wrote:

ghaelen wrote:

will CCN send a rep to possibly be elected to the pre-GoM council?"

Thanks, ghaelen. I want to divorce myself from the rules, regulations, votes part of the GoM. I've never been arguing with you with that in mind.

Have we been arguing?
Thank you, Rusty. I suspected that was the case, but I wasn't sure until now.

Rusty_Russell wrote:

ghaelen wrote:

will CCN send a rep to participate on the pre-GoM council?"

(You might choose to vote amongst yourselves as to who it would be - or just take it in turns).

lolol.... well, I can only speak for myself, here.... (teasing you)
I'll keep looking at what the group becomes and what it's called. Will that do for now?

Quote:

GoM has to be an inclusive organisation by definition - inclusive of all of the in-cavern communications media.

I agree, absolutely. I don't know that I want my "organization" to follow me into the guild. Given that I like variety, I rather prefer the idea that the network I establish in the guild would be a different kind than the one I have in any current organization I'm a part of.

_________________
We are the shapers and the caretakers of this metaverse. How we honor ourselves and others largely determines what we bring into being.

A story: CavernScents Journey

Ghaelen: KI# 23059

Jenine wrote:

For what reason do you "really need" a code of conduct. I met many of your group- and will they forget the treats at a meeting, stand on their heads while speeches are being given? Or be jumping off the balcony onto the imager? Just joking... No restrictions have ever been on any of the current news organizations to this point and I'm not sure any need to have anyone telling them how to run their business.

So, are you asking for integrity and morality? Hummmm, much harder to ask for- since it is not a tangible element. My views of morality and integrity may be very different from yours and that may be another hot bed issue debating what it is... I'm not comfortable with great news organizations that claim to be fair and balanced... Seems those are the ones that may be just the opposite. Besides one guild member should not be able to use the guild as a forum to accuse other guild members of "personal" choices within the guild structure. Those disputes would be better handled in an informal or neutral and personal environment away from the main gatherings.

On the other hand if you are asking for rules of conduct pertaining to public guild meetings- then that is another issue and agreeing on a way to communicate at a meeting only requires someone to volunteer to moderate and working up a list of everyone's planned discussion points ahead of time and agree to stick with them. Many of you know how to handle this much better than I do.

I'm talking about the fact there are situation that should not occur. Lets use the hypothetical that the Guild get tools to spread news easier and then a member decides to use that to spam all kinds of stuff that shouldn't be would you say that he was in the right? Its situations like that that a code covers.

_________________

Unless specifically stated otherwise all posts by me are my own and not official TCT statements or policy.

Anthony wrote:

I'm talking about the fact there are situation that should not occur. Lets use the hypothetical that the Guild get tools to spread news easier and then a member decides to use that to spam all kinds of stuff that shouldn't be would you say that he was in the right? Its situations like that that a code covers.

This truly IS a cart before a horse.

If we are made aware that such tools are going to be given to us, then at that time, it would be appropriate to discuss a rule about it. I don't believe tools will simply materialize one day and be abused within 30 minutes, before anyone has an opportunity to think about it.

More importantly, I don't think tools like the ones you're hypothesizing will be available for a long, long time, if ever.

To drag a little risk management experience into this, a standard approach to your concerns would be the following:
* Come up with a list of possible problems
* Evaluate the probability and severity (impact) of each issue
* Triage the issues into those that actually require mitigation and those which do not.

Don't be in a rush to solve problems that don't exist.

_________________

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Late addendum:

I'm not saying a Code of Conduct might not be needed. But let's identify the problems first, then look for solutions. This is the best strategy because someone might have a better idea... or if your solution is truly the best, others are bound to have the same idea, and then you have buy-in because you're not the only one feeling ownership of the solution.

_________________

MOULa 26838 | Prologue Video Project: On Hold pending Minkata support
Visit rel.to to explore Myst, Uru, and D'ni communities!

Marten wrote:

Late addendum:

I'm not saying a Code of Conduct might not be needed. But let's identify the problems first, then look for solutions.

Righto.

The GoMe is unique in we don't have a road map quite yet. All the other Guilds already have an idea of where they're going, or they've been going that way for a while. So they need Codes of Conduct already.

For the GoMe, (which I keep trying to type GnoMe, but "GO ME!" is good, too) since we don't quite know where we're going yet, a Code of Conduct of "play nice" suffices. If someone really steps outside a boundary, we're all going to know it.

_________________
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Storyteller & Creatrix
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Quote:

I suspected that was the case, but I wasn't sure until now.

What, ghaelen? That we were arguing?

Yep. You cain't fix it if it ain't broke.

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