i picked Cartographers, i liked the shirt! its blue, who doesnt like blue? *dodges Pie*

-Calumon

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Heritage Night

I think everyone is somewhat worried about the guilds becoming exclusionary. Especially those of us who are fairly new to URU/MYST. I think that a lot of what is going on now is just laying down groundwork for what might occur in the future. People are excited about the possibilities and ideas and plans are being thrown around at a feverish pace. It keeps people happy and occupied.

I have talked to a few people at the GOW pub & they have all been very friendly & open. I have been encouraged to come to meetings & learn what is being discussed. I have not encountered anyone IC that was discouraging about haveing a "newbie" join in & learn.

I think there are two things for everyone who is concerned about being excluded in mind. First is that no one is going to be able to go forward with their plans without CYANs approval & backing. Without that it would just be another fan generated sort of thing. No real "content" behind it. Second I find it very hard to believe that CYAN would get behind and back anything that was going to be terribly exclusionary and make people feel unwelcome and risk driving them away. That would be of no benefit to to CYAN, Gametap or the community. I think we really have to put our trust in CYAN that they are not going to let anyone create an IC presence that is going to hurt URU.

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Laughter is a gift........Give it!
IC - Tourie (KI # 04719601)

belford wrote:

Oh? I assume that the Guild of Writers *must not* have have exclusive rights to Age creation. You can't guarantee high-quality Ages by setting yourself up as a gatekeeper. All you can do is reduce the number of Ages that get built, and the number of people willing to try.

Yeah. In any case, I think the vast majority of people interested in the GoW have already stated that they would prefer the tools be available to everyone. It shouldn't be an issue.

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Guild of Outcasts

KI # 04260171

There are many that are working hard to make sure you "can" be included even if you are not a "card carrying" member. I think once the shell of these groups are formed we will find ways that everyone can participate.

I am going to do all I can to petition the guilds once they get organized to have informational activities, open houses and teaching on a regular basis for "any" explorer to get involved in a guild. (And a lot of you know how I can discuss and offer suggestions... )

I am even willing to help organize and work for any guild to start these activities! but I have to wait until they get organized and established before I can start hounding them about the next thing! But I will!

I am patient! and confident that we will find ways for all of the guilds to build a stronger community sense without becoming exclusive clubs! While they will have work to do- they will also have to cultivate the community! or they will just fade away and create those hard feelings.

Edited to add: There is also nothing wrong with thinking of new ideas that could be considered a part of any guild... Many of those planning the new guilds started with an idea and ran with it a long time ago. It's just now they will have a new place to call home. They weren't the "elite" before - just hard working and dedicated. Nothing will change... unless you let it.

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"Always consider the Whole, Atrus. Always look at the interrelatedness of things and remember the 'whole' of one thing is always just a part of something else, something larger." wisely spoken by Anna- "The Book of Atrus"

Thank you for the thoughtful and informative replies. I look forward to contributing to the GoW, when there is a Guild of Writers. Until then, I'll try my best to keep abreadst of the events of the Unofficial GoW, so I can get to know others who would join the GoW.

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I'm just happy to be here!

belford wrote:

Oh? I assume that the Guild of Writers *must not* have have exclusive rights to Age creation. You can't guarantee high-quality Ages by setting yourself up as a gatekeeper. All you can do is reduce the number of Ages that get built, and the number of people willing to try.

Quality control in this case doesn't mean quality of the age, but the content. As in, are there any inappropriate pictures used as textures, and no hacks or viruses in the code.

Bottom line, someone WILL have to check the Age otherwise it's a horrid liability for Cyan. Whether that means that Writers is the only group that can write ages, I don't know. I want the tools available to everyone, and I'd love for anyone to be able to make an age, but I don't know about the liability and prefer to err on the side of caution and not optimism where lawyers are concerned.

Also, the insinuation that I want to set myself up as "gatekeeper" and desire to reduce the number of ages made or the people interested reeks of pride, particularly someone who doesn't even know me. I merely raise a concern. Not everyone who does that longs to control you...

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-Whilyam

Yes, I *presume* there will be such rules -- about copyright violation, about inappropriate content, about data that could damage Uru or a player's computer.

But we don't really have any idea how those rules will be handled. There may be different levels of control; some rules may be enforced in advance, while others are handled after the fact. (I.e., the way inappropriate content is handled on the forums -- you see a problem, you flag down a moderator and he/she yanks it.)

There may be different levels of *access*, where players can see a "recommended" list of Ages, a "tested" list, and a "not yet inspected -- enter at your own risk!" list. (I would, BTW, prefer this to any rigid gatekeeper mechanism.)

It may well not be the Guild of Writers which is in charge of those rules at all. A straightforward rendering of D'ni society would put that task on the Maintainers.

The point is, it's very hard to say "the Guild of Writers have exclusive rights to Age creation" without sounding like you're controlling the right to *try*. Any rules which Cyan imposes -- and I'll happily tell them this, if they get it wrong -- must be about outcome, not membership or identity.

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Andrew Plotkin (KI#00102725)
Uru Newcomer's Guide and Answer Sheet
-- http://eblong.com/zarf/uru/newfaq.html

belford wrote:

Yes, I *presume* there will be such rules -- about copyright violation, about inappropriate content, about data that could damage Uru or a player's computer.

But we don't really have any idea how those rules will be handled. There may be different levels of control; some rules may be enforced in advance, while others are handled after the fact. (I.e., the way inappropriate content is handled on the forums -- you see a problem, you flag down a moderator and he/she yanks it.)

There may be different levels of *access*, where players can see a "recommended" list of Ages, a "tested" list, and a "not yet inspected -- enter at your own risk!" list. (I would, BTW, prefer this to any rigid gatekeeper mechanism.)

It may well not be the Guild of Writers which is in charge of those rules at all. A straightforward rendering of D'ni society would put that task on the Maintainers.

The point is, it's very hard to say "the Guild of Writers have exclusive rights to Age creation" without sounding like you're controlling the right to *try*. Any rules which Cyan imposes -- and I'll happily tell them this, if they get it wrong -- must be about outcome, not membership or identity.

I imagine that Cyan would run the process of adding player ages to the game much like they were ages proposed by their own employees. At least with respect to appropriateness, if not many other factors. I wouldn't think it unreasonable at all that there are going to be likely many player-made ages that never make the cut.

But even so, I would not be in the least bit surprised if we get some excellent ages from members of the community who for whatever reason choose not to join the Guild of Writers. It'd be terribly silly if Cyan were to assign sole right to produce fan content to an official organization. I'm sure that goes for anything produced by any of the guilds.

(And since someone seems to think it matters: these views represent my personal views and not the views of the Guild of Cartographers. Just because the GoC logo is in my sig doesn't mean I'm always speeking for the Guild)

*Edited for grammar. Aiden sleepy.

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Now seeking Mapmakers!

belford wrote:

There may be different levels of *access*, where players can see a "recommended" list of Ages, a "tested" list, and a "not yet inspected -- enter at your own risk!" list. (I would, BTW, prefer this to any rigid gatekeeper mechanism.)

It may well not be the Guild of Writers which is in charge of those rules at all. A straightforward rendering of D'ni society would put that task on the Maintainers.

that would be a nice system, but I see a problem in what you say:
you suggest to upload the Ages to MOUL before they've been tested. This is a dangeous thing, the Age could contain "dangerous codes" or the like. It needs to be tested elsewhere first, and then uploaded to MOUL when it's safe.

Yes, historically these things would be Maintainers duties, we (The Pre-Guild of Maintainers) are discussing about this point on the AoG forums

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"No one expects it to be a smooth ride, so let's all type twice and post once."-Zardoz
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are mine only and not Guild endorsed.

"It needs to be tested elsewhere first, and then uploaded to MOUL when it's safe."

That's not inconsistent with what I said. What if each list was a different server (and vault database)? Then the "untested" list would *be* the "elsewhere".

Or maybe they'll have a sandboxing system which prevents code from acting dangerously. I don't necessarily expect that -- Python isn't well-suited to sandboxing -- but it could happen.

My point is, don't make flat declarations about the way Cyan will manage things.

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Andrew Plotkin (KI#00102725)
Uru Newcomer's Guide and Answer Sheet
-- http://eblong.com/zarf/uru/newfaq.html

Without more information from Cyan we are all walking in the dark! The only thing we know is there are guild pubs with different titles and hopefully different goals for providing us all something new and exciting to do while we wait for DRC/Cyan episodes...

It has been an interesting two months since we got the news we were going to be able to gather into more official guilds. Even though we are not sure what this really will mean, (aside from the ones already established), it has given us the opportunity to meet new explorers and begin to get to know others interested in the same sorts of things. These bonds and associations will continue into the next phase of the formation. It was clever of Cyan to let us work out some of the confusion now- rather than giving us tools and letting us fight over control of them. Now we know each other better- we will be more inclined to work together.

How we finally get to use the pubs or the organizations they will hold - is really up in the air but many of the introductions have been made, personalities revealed, and friendships made.

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"Always consider the Whole, Atrus. Always look at the interrelatedness of things and remember the 'whole' of one thing is always just a part of something else, something larger." wisely spoken by Anna- "The Book of Atrus"