There are going to be some problems soon.

I would like to say that I am in favor of user created stuff, and I think no Age or item, however bad, should be excluded from some form of public viewing. HOWEVER, that being laid out, I have some things to say on quality, criticism, and the Guilds...

According to what we've heard, Cyan is going to play some role (as yet undefined) in the approval of Ages and content, and the Guilds (namely the Writers and the Maintainers) will, in general, be in control of what goes in and what comes out; and believe me when I say that not everything that comes out is going to be Cyan-quality work. Even the stuff that's already out there isn't that great, with the exception of a few high-quality Ages that could flawlessly blend into the existing game (the Age of Eh'ko comes to mind). So a few questions are going to arise right away. The first one is...

1. Where will our content go?
I will say that I am very picky about the kind of Ages I plan to visit, and the kind of content I want to see integrated into the game. I will not be Age-hopping to every Joe Writer's experimental world where the low-poly models look like bricks and the low-resolution textures make my eyes bleed. Everyone deserves a chance to try it out and host their work, of course; but I'm not going to be visiting a lot of places early on, because I know that compared to the Ages of Uru, they are going to downright suck. Quite frankly, I don't even want to be exposed to them in a public location. I don't want to go to the Library on Ae'gura and see rows and rows of these Ages, because I won't know which ones are visually acceptable and which ones are not. I don't have anything against the people who Write them, or the people who go to them, or the fact that they are available. I fully support all UCC. But I want to have a very clear choice about what I see in-game and what I do not.

I suggest we have an alternative than just having everything out on display. I don't think any Age should be censored based on quality, (with limitations, of course; an Age populated by large brown cubes is, in my opinion, not something that belongs in the game) but I think there should be a system of access that players must engage in in order to see an Age, regardless of its type. I would prefer that any Age anybody Writes, no matter how good or bad it is, appears FIRST and ONLY on their bookshelf in Relto. Anyone who wants to see it can recieve an invite from the owner, or go to that person's Relto directly to get the Age. From that point, that Age would appear on a seperate, User Created shelf in their Relto, away from any books that person may have written. This keeps things nice and tidy, so when you go to Relto you have two shelves: one for the existing Ages of MO:UL and the Ages you've written, and another for the Ages you've visited.

Then, if an Age is of particularly high quality, once a month, a fan-made Age can be voted upon either by the Guilds or selected by the explorers (or selected by Cyan) and placed in the Library in Ae'gura. This way, all Ages are available; but not all Ages are integrated into public areas. You want to see an Age that's not in the Library? Go ask the owner, and once you've visited it you'll have a copy of your own to visit whenever you want (or delete it if you don't like it). Everybody gets to host their approved content, and everybody gets a chance to see it if they choose, or choose not to: we all win.

But then a new question arises...

2. At what point does the quality of a piece of work keep it out of the game?
Cyan has already said that they are going to give us a guideline for what is acceptable and what is not. If you rush through an Age just to get it out, and you're falling through the floor and the textures are giving people seizures, then your Age shouldn't be released. But who is going to decide what the quality of an Age is? The Guilds, presumably. Maintainers wont let unstable Ages into the game, and the Writers will (hopefully) screen their own members' work to avoid that from happening. But when is an Age too bad to enter the game? And even if it is, how will that person react when they are told their work is poor quality? Someone is going to get offended sooner or later, and the Guilds are going to take the fallout. They're going to look like the bad guys in many cases, and unfortunately it's just unavoidable. Somebody has to screen this stuff.

What we have to remember is that anybody can enter a Guild, and every Guild is made up of explorers like you and me. 'Power' in this case is an illusion, and so is elitism; if anybody can be a part, then nobody is being an elitist.

3. What about editing public areas?
Chogon already hinted that certain areas like Relto or a neighborhood can be altered by their owner. I don't see a problem with this, because in order to visit a neighborhood you have to go through nexus; if you know there are certain neighborhoods that contain content that isn't up to your standard, then you never have to see them. Same with a Relto.

There are, of course, certain legal ramifications and story limits, I'm sure; I don't think Cyan wants us expanding their content, just adding to it. This is speculation on my part of course, but based on their reactions to previous questions, not all editing is ok. There will be Ages and areas that we must leave alone. Adding party balloons or a table full of journals is probably going to be ok. Adding a new hut to your Relto ought to be fine (I hope). Creating a new 'restored' area behind one of the locked doors in the neighborhood is probably not.

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To me the smartest idea has always been for Cyan to add to the official in-game Relto bookshelf the "top of the crop" in terms of fan ages. Those they have personnaly approved, I mean. Those ages would also be distributed through the URU patcher.

As for any other age, you would have to download it from another user or from somewhere in the Internet and add it yourself to the Uru Library Manager. Anything you install on your own, you play at your own risk, tough. It seems ideal that there should be two bookshelves: one for Cyan and approved ages, and one for any other downloaded ages. It's the best of both worlds: freedom of choice and immersion... with both worlds being separated from one another.

Open editing of public areas doesn't seem to make much sense. Bevins, on the other hand...

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Avatar: Garamoth
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balance balance balance balance. At some point, Cyan will have to either supervise themselves, or vest into a group (and dear Maker, may it be an anonymous group of people, known only to Cyan, otherwise the power paranoia will fly) the need to keep crappy Ages and Edits from their IP. Now, what constitutes crap will be up to them, but it'll have to happen.

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First of all, I object to the subject line -- it is prejudicial to the subject (and to your post, which is calm and reasonable and not an accusation of "crap".)

Quote:

But who is going to decide what the quality of an Age is? The Guilds, presumably.

If someone is deciding "the quality" an Age, that Age is already *in Uru*, in at least one sense -- a player is walking an Uru avatar around in it. (I mean, you can also look at the Blender data or the PRP layout, but I hope we agree that no judgement can be complete until you've walked around and kicked the walls for a while.)

So really there is no discussion is of whether an Age will be *kept out* of the game. Drop that idea. Consider *how* an Age will be *part of* the game (ie, the game experience) -- how hard to reach, how separated from other Ages, how you find out about it, how you get there.

I agree that there should be (at least) two levels of acceptance. Actually, I like at least three:

- a person offers an Age for private viewing
- a group offers an Age for public discussion (this includes RAD contest judging, GoMa quality testing, GoW public tutorials, and certainly more cases).
- Cyan says "this is awesome, everybody come see"

Please understand the words "private" and "public" in the sense of "private message" and "public message". That is, something announced to a Guild is "public" in this sense. Because as you say:

Quote:

What we have to remember is that anybody can enter a Guild, and every Guild is made up of explorers like you and me.

I *don't* think the Uru Library Manager is the right tool for any of this. It's a hack designed for the single-player Uru, which has always been hard to install and easy to screw up. I would rather have the configuration handled by server, so that the client "just works", as MOUL did.

The obvious way to do this is shard adminstration: you run a shard, you decide what Ages are in it. This is a divergence from Cyan's original roadmap (which implied all shards being (nearly) identical). But I hope Cyan is considering it -- it solves a lot of problems.

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Garamoth wrote:

To me the smartest idea has always been for Cyan to add to the official in-game Relto bookshelf the "top of the crop" in terms of fan ages. Those they have personnaly approved, I mean. Those ages would also be distributed through the URU patcher.

As for any other age, you would have to download it from another user or from somewhere in the Internet and add it yourself to the Uru Library Manager. Anything you install on your own, you play at your own risk, tough. It seems ideal that there should be two bookshelves: one for Cyan and approved ages, and one for any other downloaded ages. It's the best of both worlds: freedom of choice and immersion... with both worlds being separated from one another.

That doesn't really make sense because then Ages aren't really integrated into the game; if you've got to go to an outside source to get the Age, not only does it ruin the immersion, but it will require a whole new system of getting Ages into the game. I agree with Belford's comment that the ULM is a hack for Uru and is a model that should not be used in MORE. Not only that, but if you have to download a new Age every time one is added to the bookshelf at the start of the game, pretty soon we are going to have horrible download times for new users who are trying to upload everything at once when they first install. And it doesn't make sense to have Ages you've never visited (or don't want to visit) on your bookshelf in Relto.

I still think the idea of having new Ages confined to Relto is optimal, because they can still be shared, and when particularly shining Ages come out, they can be placed in a public location for widespread access. Of course, all Ages we visit should also appear in our nexus like any other Age, giving us 2 access points if an Age doesn't make it into the public: via our Relto shelf, and via the nexus.

Another question also should be addressed, and that's whether or not an Age will be instanced per user. For example, if Joe Writer invities me to Age B, which I visit, and I then get Age B on my bookshelf next time I go to my Relto, will that Age be an instance of Age B? Or will Age B be public? I personally think that should be up to the server capacity of Joe Writer and whether or not he wants his Age public. If he can't handle more than 10 people in his Age at once, then he probably shouldn't make it public. (By "public" I mean all versions of that book lead to the same instance. So if you have Age B on your bookshelf, and you link to Age B, you will end up in the same Age B that everybody else ends up in, as opposed to ending up in an Age B that only you can visit.)

belford wrote:

If someone is deciding "the quality" an Age, that Age is already *in Uru*, in at least one sense -- a player is walking an Uru avatar around in it. (I mean, you can also look at the Blender data or the PRP layout, but I hope we agree that no judgement can be complete until you've walked around and kicked the walls for a while.)

Everything I said is assuming that there is some sort of server or setup that will allow people to test their Age. Chogon eluded to this before. You can't really test the Age unless you can get in it: but I don't think MORE should be the place where Ages are tested. I think there needs to be a seperate system for that, like the beta servers. Ages need to be approved via testing before they even make it into MORE, and if I make an Age, I want to be able to walk around in it and get an explorer's eye view of the place so I can make changes. The Maintainers also need a place to test new Ages/items before anyone else gets to see it, both for stability reasons and to screen for inappropriate content. You can't just load an Age into MORE, invite all your friends to see it, and then request Guild approval. There are legal issues there.

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Eleri wrote:

balance balance balance balance. At some point, Cyan will have to either supervise themselves, or vest into a group (and dear Maker, may it be an anonymous group of people, known only to Cyan, otherwise the power paranoia will fly) the need to keep crappy Ages and Edits from their IP. Now, what constitutes crap will be up to them, but it'll have to happen.

Oh goodness no. Not another secret group. Wont the crappy accused have the right to know who their crappy accuser is?

Oye! Is it paranoia to fear power mongers, as much as it is to fear people, who fear power mongers? Oops! Almost confused myself there a second,

Still don't know why everyone who wants to create personal ages, cant have their own book on the shelf. No one has to go to them unless they are invited. Everyone should be able to create, express themselves, and host them in some way. Anything Cyan wants to use, and anyone ambitious enough to meet the standards. MORE power to em. I've learned from experience the criticism is too harsh to have good ideas trampled by the cannon thumpers.

"One mans crap is another mans Treasure"

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If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well. It were done quickly.

I was going to read your post... But your insults toward to abilities of Writers in general turned me off immediately. I guess I'll stop wasting my time now.

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Adam "Hoikas" Johnson
Guild of [MESSAGE REDACTED]

AdamJohnso wrote:

I was going to read your post... But your insults toward to abilities of Writers in general turned me off immediately. I guess I'll stop wasting my time now.

Actually, you might want to actually READ his post. Calam didn't insult the Writers. He made a valid point, and I happen to agree with him. He was speaking of the people who will be trying their hand at Age Writing for the first time, which includes people like me, and how we will be spitting out boxes with crappy textures and other lame bits. Hey, that's what happens on your first run-through. Its part of the learning process and there's nothing wrong with that!

Not only does he support that the Guilds are open and non-elitist-power-mongers (thank you!), he supports the idea that ANY and ALL UCC should be allowed. He is simply suggesting his method for entering it into the game. And I appreciate his ideas. At first I didn't want to read the post either because I've already got a headache and I'm tired of reading crap that trashes the Guilds, but I made myself read it because if there are myths or misconceptions that need to be debunked, I need to step up and do that.

However, he's right on the ball, IMHO. So thank you Calam, for your excellent post. I agree that we will need some way of regulating content in the Cavern at some point. I don't think everyone's going to want to download all the UCC Ages anyways, and if they are all hosted on the same server, you will have a TON of disc space eaten up on your hard drive. A suggestion has been made to separate them on multiple servers, Shards, so that you can choose one and download that content only if you want to. But alas, these are details that will be worked out "in the future" because "we don't know yet".

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What about a 'staging' server run by Cyan specifically to upload ages to? This can be done in parts - the first stage is done by Cyan approved personnel to make sure the age is 'kosher' in the legal sense. I, as the author, can make whatever changes are needed and re submit my age for approval to stage 2 beta - notice I said nothing concerning the quality of an age at this point. That comes next in stage 2: In this stage, anyone who wishes to can visit my age and leave comments. It can be as simple as a simple numbering system along with some coments. Now, hopefully the comments will be constructive, and will allow me to make changes to create a better age, but the most important being the numbering systen - in order to get the age I am making publically released into the game proper, I need to ge a score of, say, 80% over some minimum number of votes. Say I will need at least 30 people and an average of 80% - now, if say 300 people have visited my age and all I have is 45% then I know I have some problems. This stage would be anonymous, but could be anyone. There could be more stages, and the hirerarchy of authority could be set up differently, but the overall goal is 1) to get my age approved for public release, 2) have a mechanism set in place where no one who wished to visit beta ages would ever have to - just sign onto the main server as opposed to the beta server.

Didn't Cyan do something like this for MOUL? I just can't remember what they called it...

Maybe, there could be a special DRC library, where ages that have been deemed non-fatal (not neccessarily non-crappy) could reside. There could be a section where people could check out & browse books. Maybe there could be an interface similar to the Nexus that could be searched by author. Books could find their way there, if the author donates them. The author himself could have space on his shelf for his own creations, where they could be shared if he so desired. I imagine a little panel on the wall in Relto that would work like those old electric jewelry cases. You could push a button, and your current set of books would be replaced with a new set of books. You could scroll through them if you wanted too. Perhaps, the right shelf could get some use.

I suggest modifying the guilds a bit. (just a suggestion) There could be a part of the writers guild that comes up with ideas. Maybe this is where most would submit their work. They could have illustrations, artwork, and other descriptions of their age. There might be another section that actually builds the age. If one wanted to, he could do both, but he could optionally just design the layout of it without having to do the programming. The maintainers might be the ones that actually ensure that the ages work. The writers could submit rough models. The maintainers would then test the age, and refine it until it actuallly worked. Working ages could then be submitted to Cyan, if they wanted to review things. In this way, everything could get consideration. As long as the age didn't kill you, you could check it out in the library, provided it is made public. Ages that are actually good might get featured in the main Ae'gura library.

Just a thought

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Maybe, there's
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Could all the books just be integrated into a new "tab" in the Nexus. That would appear to be the fastest and easiest way to implement new ages without physically changing any existing age, ie. placing the book.

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Calam's post is actually a good one ... but ... y'know, color me skeptical ...

People have a lot of expectations about how good an Age should be. And bluntly speaking, a lot of people with a lot of expectations equals a LOT of pressure to conform.

Personally, I really doubt that we'll see an Age that's all boxes and lousy textures -- mostly because people who create them will be too ashamed to put them up for public consumption in any form other than "please check out my lousy Age and teach me how to improve".

Just a thought.

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More than what I would call the quality issue is an interesting thing that I think will happen. The game won't really look like one game.

Game development teams have people who look out for this sort of thing. Games with a big staff have art directors. Everything looks like it belongs in the age, in the world - the same look.

I don't think that's possible with user created content. I'm not talking about a quality issue. It's user created content, so it's going to be different. The ages won't all have the same look, the same style. That's not bad, and you can't legislate it away, nor should you. I do think it will make Uru a different looking game.

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Authors could submit ages which are works in progress. Perhaps some sort of, Welcome to my age. I've only just started. What do you think of my age? Do you have suggestions? Be sure to stop back every so often to see continued progress.

AdamJohnso wrote:

I was going to read your post... But your insults toward to abilities of Writers in general turned me off immediately. I guess I'll stop wasting my time now.

I'm sorry if my comments about poor-quality Ages came off as disrespectful to Writers as a whole-- it's not meant to be. Trust me, I have tried to make my own stuff too, and it made Picasso paintings look orderly and logical compared to what I spewed out. I understand that there is a learning process, and nobody is going to make Kadish Tolesa on their first try. But I don't want my random junk in the game any more than I want to see someone else's random junk in the game.

Doug Parker wrote:

Maybe, there could be a special DRC library, where ages that have been deemed non-fatal (not neccessarily non-crappy) could reside. There could be a section where people could check out & browse books. Maybe there could be an interface similar to the Nexus that could be searched by author. Books could find their way there, if the author donates them. The author himself could have space on his shelf for his own creations, where they could be shared if he so desired. I imagine a little panel on the wall in Relto that would work like those old electric jewelry cases. You could push a button, and your current set of books would be replaced with a new set of books. You could scroll through them if you wanted too. Perhaps, the right shelf could get some use.

I suggest modifying the guilds a bit. (just a suggestion) There could be a part of the writers guild that comes up with ideas. Maybe this is where most would submit their work. They could have illustrations, artwork, and other descriptions of their age. There might be another section that actually builds the age. If one wanted to, he could do both, but he could optionally just design the layout of it without having to do the programming. The maintainers might be the ones that actually ensure that the ages work. The writers could submit rough models. The maintainers would then test the age, and refine it until it actuallly worked. Working ages could then be submitted to Cyan, if they wanted to review things. In this way, everything could get consideration. As long as the age didn't kill you, you could check it out in the library, provided it is made public. Ages that are actually good might get featured in the main Ae'gura library.

Just a thought

The problem here is that these ideas are great, but require significant modifications in the game. I think the concept of implementation I laid out may not be as pretty, but it doesn't need the add-ons that things like user libraries or a UCC nexus might require. Things like an Age invite system of dispersal and an extra bookshelf are things that are already either in the game or can be quickly modified (I assume).

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