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Gorobay

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:38 am — Post subject:

Bogardan Mage wrote:

If the D'ni economy was ever based on gold it wouldn't have stayed that way very long. All it would take is one rogue Writer and the entire market collapses faster than you can say "Perhaps the ending has not yet been written". The whole point of a gold standard is to prevent that kind of thing! In a society where it was relatively easy (whether it was also illegal or not) to acquire gold it doesn't make sense to use it to base an economy!


Even if gold production and mining were completely unregulated, and gold coins were their money, it does not follow that the economy would fail. If the coins were marked, then it would be harder to counterfeit; presumably they would in that case regulate the access to minting machines.


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Zardoz

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:59 am — Post subject:

Let's review our basic economics:

Money serves three purposes, the first two mostly subservient to the third:
  1. A unit of account;
  2. A store of value; and
  3. A medium of exchange.
Gold was useful for money, as opposed to being a valuable good in its own right and therefore a useful item for barter, because of its metallurgical properties: It was malleable, and therefore could easily be transformed into coin; and it was very heavy, which meant that watering it down, so to speak, could easily be detected. The fact that it was also a store of value was important when there was no such thing as a central bank. Thus, gold coins gave their own assurance of value (rather than the backing of a central bank), were a good candidate for uniformity (the malleability part), and offered protection against counterfeit (the weight part).

When economies were mainly command and control (the King did both), gold coins were useful. But as trade grew, both in volume and distance, they and other monies based on metal became a pain in the rear end. A gold coin's value was limited to the worth of the gold itself. You couldn't just strike a coin and call it a Million Dollar coin. That meant that long distance traders had to transport huge amounts of coin to strike deals in distant lands. That was both inefficient and dangerous, as thieves had an easier time striking caravans weighed down with heavy metals.

To counter this disadvantage, merchants began using Bills of Exchange, essentially an IOU, as a form of money (a medium of exchange and a store of value). ""[T]he necessity and commodiousnesse of [a Bill of Exchange] is seen, in that it . . . prevents the danger and adventure of carriage of monies from one City or Country to another (J. Marius, Advice Concerning Bils of Exchange, London, 1654)." A Bill of Exchange was a promissory note from one trader to another. It could take on the function of money if the trader holding the Bill could then exchange it with a third trader for other goods. Thus, Trader A gives Trader B a Bill in exchange for roll of silk cloth. Trader B then gives the Bill to Trader C for a cistern of wine. The IOU has passed from Trader A, the originator, to Trader B to Trader C, which means that Trader A now owes Trader C the amount of the Bill.

When trades were infrequent, this system didn't work very well because merchants in the position of Trader C would heavily discount the Bill or not accept it at all, because Trader C might not know Trader A and thus fear the possibility that Trader A would not pay the IOU. But as trading volumes increased and traders engaged in repeat transactions, reputations arose based in part on a trader's credit worthiness. And even if Trader C did not know Trader A, Trader C probably knew someone who knew Trader A, and so would be willing to accept Trader A's Bill: "Heereupon all such Bills as are of knowne persons are soone accepted of, and of the unknowne person, either himself that is the Seller, or the Broker, will inquire of their sufficiencie, and then likewise accept their Bills in paiment (G. Malynes, Lex Mercatoria, 1622)."

This system was widely used in medieval times as trade expanded to encompass the globe. Eventually, nations adopted the advantages of the Bills of Exchange, creating the system of a central (or at least, somewhat centralized) banking. Paper money had obvious advantages as a unit of account (paper was easier to standardize and could have different denominations) and as a medium of exchange (you could transport a huge amount of trading value at low cost). The key feature that had to be ensured was the store of value. For Bills of Exchange, the assurance came from merchants' reputations. A trader who reneged on a Bill was in big trouble: "Such is the sinceritie and Candor Animi amongst Merchants of all nations beyond the seas, in the observation of plaine dealing concerning the said Bills Obligatorie betweene man and man, that no man dare presume to question his owne hand; for if he be stayned therewith, he is not only utterly discredited, but also detested of all Merchants (G. Malynes, Lex Mercatoria, 1622)." For central banks, the problem is trickier, as the hyperinflation in Germany in the 1920s and Zimbabwe today evidence. Nevertheless, central banking soon become the norm, and although the money supply was (in theory) tied to things like gold reserves, that system (Bretton Woods) also went to the wayside in the 1970s.

All of this to say: I really doubt that a society as long-lived as D'ni would be using metal coins for serious money. Given the existence of a Guild of Bankers, I have little doubt they would have the basic paper or other form of money that no longer was tied to the preciousness of the medium itself.

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Wafna

Joined: 09 May 2006

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:05 am — Post subject:

This is a little off topic, but have you bothered to look closely at the gold coins in Kadish's vault? Don't you find it interesting that they date from about 150 years after the fall?


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Bogardan Mage

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:24 am — Post subject:

Calam wrote:

Whoa, chill out. You don't need to make this into an argument.

1. I'm forming my opinions based on the information presented to me.


I'm sure you are, but I'm trying to get across to you that you're overlooking certain important parts of said information.

Calam wrote:

2. I'm basing their value on gold on the fact that there are millions of gold coins in Kadish's vault. How was I not clear before?


You're assuming that just because the coins look like gold they must be made of gold, and furthermore that this is somehow a vital part of their value. You also seem to be skirting around the point by agreeing that they might not be gold and that gold might not be valuable but then negating it all by saying that you don't think this is the case with no further discussion!

Calam wrote:

3. The presence of gold coins in a vault is no basis to assume that gold coins were their currency. There are shields and rugs in his vault, too. Should we assume they used those as currency as well?


No, we should assume the most likely explanation for any item in the vault. Art objects are likely valuable for being art. Coins are likely valuable for being coins. The D'ni did not have a vast trading empire, certainly not one that would introduce them to the volume of foreign currency as coins found in Kadish's vault. We must therefore conclude that they are native D'ni coins, and if they are not currency why should they even exist?

Calam wrote:

And as Ian Atrus said, and as I already said, virtually ANY resource being harvested in an Age that was vital to the D'ni economy probably would have been heavily regulated, regardless of what it was. Keep in mind that 'value' is a subjective term.


I'm sure it would have been heavily regulated, but it seems to me far too much effort to artificially inflate the value of a particular kind of metal simply so it can be used to back an economy. I don't believe such a system would have even occurred to the D'ni; with the entire great tree of possibilities at one's disposal, who's going to say "Clearly we should base our economy on yellow rocks"?

Gorobay wrote:

Bogardan Mage wrote:

If the D'ni economy was ever based on gold it wouldn't have stayed that way very long. All it would take is one rogue Writer and the entire market collapses faster than you can say "Perhaps the ending has not yet been written". The whole point of a gold standard is to prevent that kind of thing! In a society where it was relatively easy (whether it was also illegal or not) to acquire gold it doesn't make sense to use it to base an economy!


Even if gold production and mining were completely unregulated, and gold coins were their money, it does not follow that the economy would fail. If the coins were marked, then it would be harder to counterfeit; presumably they would in that case regulate the access to minting machines.


That is quite true. It, of course, requires that gold itself be valueless (or at least relatively so) and that the coins be official D'ni legal tender, both of which I have been arguing in favour of this whole time.

Also, Zardos, great post. I suspect though, due to their absence in Kadish's vault, that they didn't use paper money. My theory is that the coins in the vault are the "Bills of Exchange". Why they'd use metal coins for this, I don't know. Perhaps to make them less easy to fake.


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Calam

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:53 am — Post subject:

Bogardan Mage wrote:

I'm sure you are, but I'm trying to get across to you that you're overlooking certain important parts of said information.



You know what, I'm done with this discussion. If you're going to take it this seriously and hijack a thoughtful conversation into an argument just to prove some vague point about economics, then maybe you need to remember that this is a game we're talking about. This is not the DRC forums. We are not IC here. Can you please keep that in mind and be a little less terse?


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MatzeEdend

Joined: 20 Nov 2007

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:33 am — Post subject:

Calam wrote:

Bogardan Mage wrote:

I'm sure you are, but I'm trying to get across to you that you're overlooking certain important parts of said information.



You know what, I'm done with this discussion. If you're going to take it this seriously and hijack a thoughtful conversation into an argument just to prove some vague point about economics, then maybe you need to remember that this is a game we're talking about. This is not the DRC forums. We are not IC here. Can you please keep that in mind and be a little less terse?



Hear, Hear! It's our job as amateurs to overlook important parts... It's not like any of us are taking this sort of thing seriously.

BTW that was an interesting point about the coins being dated 150 years after the fall... that might indicate Kadish got the coins from someplace else, rather than from the D'ni. Perhaps he was looting ages, like Sirrus and Achenar. They had even less use for any form of currency, since the D'ni were long since gone.


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Bogardan Mage

Joined: 19 Sep 2006

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:29 am — Post subject:

Calam wrote:

Bogardan Mage wrote:

I'm sure you are, but I'm trying to get across to you that you're overlooking certain important parts of said information.



You know what, I'm done with this discussion. If you're going to take it this seriously and hijack a thoughtful conversation into an argument just to prove some vague point about economics, then maybe you need to remember that this is a game we're talking about. This is not the DRC forums. We are not IC here. Can you please keep that in mind and be a little less terse?


I'm sorry. I don't mean to be terse or overly serious.

I just don't see how being IC or OOC makes any difference to the discussion. Are we not discussing D'ni currency? Is that not what I was specifically talking about? I may get carried away, but am I wrong? Am I off topic even slightly? Are you saying that you would approach this situation differently if it was real, and if so why wilfully take a position that is contrary to that which you would otherwise take?

I'm sorry if I enjoy in depth discussions of fictional things too much.


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Gorobay

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:29 pm — Post subject:

Wafna wrote:

This is a little off topic, but have you bothered to look closely at the gold coins in Kadish's vault? Don't you find it interesting that they date from about 150 years after the fall?


I just looked at them and all I can discern is a head on one side and some scribbles on the other. Do you have a picture of the date?


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Calam

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:12 pm — Post subject:

Quote:

Hear, Hear! It's our job as amateurs to overlook important parts... It's not like any of us are taking this sort of thing seriously.



The point I'm trying to make is that Cyan isn't perfect and there will be overlooked things in their game, like, for example, why there would be gold coins in Kadish's Vault, when there is no explanation as to why gold would have been used at all (other than what we've wasted time speculating on.)

Quote:

I just don't see how being IC or OOC makes any difference to the discussion. Are we not discussing D'ni currency? Is that not what I was specifically talking about? I may get carried away, but am I wrong? Am I off topic even slightly? Are you saying that you would approach this situation differently if it was real, and if so why wilfully take a position that is contrary to that which you would otherwise take?



Because you're treating it like an IC conversation. And yes, if it was real, I'd approach it differently, because it would be real and there would be a real explanation. I might even care. But as it stands, you seem more interested in being proven right than having a conversation, and this is not important enough to me to try and fight you over it.

You want the simplest explanation? How about this one: there IS no explanation, because it is a game.

When you're ready to hold that above any theory, and realize that this is a piece of fiction we're talking about, then maybe you'll be less aggressive in proving your point.


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Gorobay

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:28 pm — Post subject:

Calam wrote:

You want the simplest explanation? How about this one: there IS no explanation, because it is a game.


That's right; there probably is no OOC explanation (though there could be). But if we leave it at that, this discussion is pointless.


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Tai'lahr

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:58 pm — Post subject:

Gorobay wrote:

Calam wrote:

You want the simplest explanation? How about this one: there IS no explanation, because it is a game.


That's right; there probably is no OOC explanation (though there could be). But if we leave it at that, this discussion is pointless.


Um, yeah, that...


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Wafna

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:59 pm — Post subject:

Gorobay wrote:

Wafna wrote:

This is a little off topic, but have you bothered to look closely at the gold coins in Kadish's vault? Don't you find it interesting that they date from about 150 years after the fall?


I just looked at them and all I can discern is a head on one side and some scribbles on the other. Do you have a picture of the date?



Actually, you can't see the date on them. In design, however, they are sovereigns or half-sovereigns of King Edward VII, circa 1902-1910. They are more the size of the five-pound gold piece, but the back design (which is of Saint George slaying a dragon) of the five-pound piece has more blank field around the figures in the middle. Here is a link to a google search for pictures of such.


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Calam

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:52 pm — Post subject:

Gorobay wrote:

Calam wrote:

You want the simplest explanation? How about this one: there IS no explanation, because it is a game.


That's right; there probably is no OOC explanation (though there could be). But if we leave it at that, this discussion is pointless.



This is beginning to remind me of an extremely unpleasant thread on the DRC forums a year or more back. The thread descended into 16 pages of anarchy when one person and a group of others (myself regrettably included) got into a fight about courtesy and where to draw the line in an argument. What it came down to was, people didn't quite realize that 1) some things are not worth fighting about, and 2) being flippant on the internet goes a lot farther than you think it does, hurts a lot more than you realize, and causes fights. I really don't want to see that happen here.

I'm not against talking about this. There's nothing wrong with that. But I'm not going to participate in this conversation if it's going to become about who's right and who's wrong. There's nothing wrong with debating something from a realistic perspective as long as you remember that everything you're debating, in the end, is really just speculation about a game. I just do not have the mental energy for an argument right now, and this is not important enough for me to debate about it. I'm not saying I just want everyone to think I'm right-- but I'd prefer it if my ideas (and everyone's ideas) are treated with a little more courtesy when being responded to. That's all. It's not a big deal.

(P.S.-- Bogardan, when half of your sentences directed at someone are ended with exclamation points, the impression is that you are yelling or angry. You may not be, and you may not think you are coming across that way, but it tends to make people go on the defensive and quite frankly it is making me uncomfortable. I feel like I am being shouted at.)


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Gorobay

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:12 pm — Post subject:

If you thought I was being discourteous or argumentative, I am sorry. And let's all try to just talk about money so this situation does not return.

I look at it thus: there are gold coins in the vault in Uru, so chances are, in the "reality" of canon, there really are gold coins. I see the coins' being sovereigns as OOC, so that in the canon, they are not really British, because that would make no sense.


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Calam

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:29 pm — Post subject:

Gorobay wrote:

If you thought I was being discourteous or argumentative, I am sorry. And let's all try to just talk about money so this situation does not return.

I look at it thus: there are gold coins in the vault in Uru, so chances are, in the "reality" of canon, there really are gold coins. I see the coins' being sovereigns as OOC, so that in the canon, they are not really British, because that would make no sense.



I'm sorry Gorobay, I formatted my post badly-- that wasn't really directed at you. I just happened to be using your quote to make a broader point.


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