I don't like the concepts I viewed, but appreciate the effort. I didn't click all of them, but I believe I have the general theme. The only feature I see that I like is Tweek's magnifying the avatar creation dressing doll to take up more of the screen, but I don't like how the rest of that window is implemented.

Aside from the readability problems posed by the font in Gehn's examples, I think that any attempt to mix the back-end stuff with the immersive experience of Uru is missing the point of the game somewhat.

Uru, through the versions I've played, has the following major interface elements:

The "backend" (I know this isn't technically the backend, but I"m appropriating the term): Tools such as the login screen, player creation, video options, key binding; stuff you find by pulling up menus and at the start screen.

The in-game KI and device consoles: Function with quirks and features you'd expect from real-world devices.

The BRIDGE: Design elements, such as the pull-up menu on the bottom of the screen, that allow you to access certain functions that aren't used often, such as the video options or key bindings, in-game.

My thoughts about this setup:

First off, keeping the "backend" tools as far from the main game experience as possible is a good goal. In my view, the minimalist boxes pulled up at the beginning or by the bridge do as little as possible to disrupt the notion that you're in a new world; they kinda remind me of using an old black and white Macintosh computer and then going about your normal business.

My problem with Gehn's, aside from the font and a number of other artistic concerns, is that there's a mix of artwork and text that tries to draw you into the feeling you're in Uru. Notice that the original Uru "backend" is pretty standard, like that old Macintosh computer; most users won't use the key bindings or video options more than a few times at the beginning, when they're expected to be thinking along the lines of normal out-of-cavern people about what's in the game - back when they're on the Cleft, in fact. The only time you'll usually see this backend is when starting up a game, which is appropriate as the login tools serve as a portal from our world into Uru's. Suspension of disbelief is minimized.

My problem with Tweek's is similar; it's throwing a layer over the game world. I don't think anything is achieved from spoiling (if that's not in-Cavern character modification while logged in I'm looking at, which would be a rather odd, although unique, feature) what the City looks like from the get-go, and I don't think it's a good idea to alter the way the actual game world looks for the sake of a black-and-white high-contrast interface. Recall that the tools, brought up by the bridge, are a little window pasted onto the game world, like a sign in your path. You can knock them down and go right back into the game whenever you like. Importantly, the game world around you is not dimmed or placed behind a translucent layer or any other stuff; it's kinda like the modern FPS games where a character holds up some random gadget and the rest of the world remains as before (perhaps blurred, but I have issues with that since it assumes a person will hold their focus right onto a spot, which is unrealistic).

tl;dr: Tweek's design, in my view, assumes a player focus. You can't really look around the game world much with a "backend" tool window opened, but the idea is that it's less jarring.

I'll let somebody with more experience discuss the basic negatives of high-contrast text on computers. Note that although that was written in the age of CRTs, a lot of the lessons it describes are still with us, including "vibration" which is a visual artifact and not limited to a certain technology. I definitely have known people who claim to prefer white text on black background, or the reverse, but the ideal approaches paper: reflective and with a smaller degree of contrast between fore and background.

The default Myst Online: URU Live Forum skin, which I assume we're all using right now, is much closer to the in-game interface, and although it has more texturing than is probably necessary it doesn't get in the way. The Forum hierarchical ordering (Myst Online Forums > Open Source Mystonline - General Discussion > New Message) is in a pleasing tan color, and tricks of contrast make the bold "New Message" look nearly white already.

It would be kinda cool to have customizable color schemes for the interface - maybe something a bit darker when you're in the City, with the tan interface in more appropriate areas (Cleft, desert Ages, Relto), or the ability to selectively choose a theme for usability.

The KI can definitely be improved, but it's integral to Uru that it remain separate in style to the actual "backend" UI elements. It is a reprogrammed centuries- (millienia- ?) old device hacked by a private group operating on a shoestring budget, after all. It can definitely be improved, but I'd prefer to see this as new organization of stuff on the existing skin if possible.

Bottom line: Keep the old style, please.

Of course, there are definitely a few things I agree with!

Upgrades I'd like to see would be resizing of the various tool windows, a better tool for panning and viewing the avatar (it shouldn't be restricted to a tiny square on the avatar creation screen, which is one of the dubious features of the original "backend" UI) faster switching between game "backend" tools and the game proper. Of course, for the reason that I mentioned before - you don't have this stuff open all that much, and I don't expect that to change with shards and other cruft - this mostly strikes me as rather low-priority.

If anybody really wants examples, I suppose I could try to bodge something together with screenshots and MSPaint, but it wouldn't be particularly pretty

Yes, I think the character creation screen should stay the same, with few little changes.

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Previously known as "The stranger"

The stranger wrote:

Yes, I think the character creation screen should stay the same, with few little changes.

I'd go for some kind of hand tool to drag and drop around the dressing doll (lol I am hurting everybody's sense of propriety aren't I? No harm intended!) and also give the avatar more space to be seen.

But I don't really see any advantage to putting it over a Bevin (or whatever that is) backdrop.

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But I don't really see any advantage to putting it over a Bevin (or whatever that is) backdrop.

Agreed.

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Previously known as "The stranger"

Ed Oscuro wrote:

I don't like the concepts I viewed, but appreciate the effort. I didn't click all of them, but I believe I have the general theme. The only feature I see that I like is Tweek's magnifying the avatar creation dressing doll to take up more of the screen, but I don't like how the rest of that window is implemented.

Thats just an icon to show the image can be enlarged, not part of the GUI.

Quote:

My problem with Tweek's is similar; it's throwing a layer over the game world. I don't think anything is achieved from spoiling (if that's not in-Cavern character modification while logged in I'm looking at, which would be a rather odd, although unique, feature) what the City looks like from the get-go, and I don't think it's a good idea to alter the way the actual game world looks for the sake of a black-and-white high-contrast interface. Recall that the tools, brought up by the bridge, are a little window pasted onto the game world, like a sign in your path. You can knock them down and go right back into the game whenever you like. Importantly, the game world around you is not dimmed or placed behind a translucent layer or any other stuff; it's kinda like the modern FPS games where a character holds up some random gadget and the rest of the world remains as before (perhaps blurred, but I have issues with that since it assumes a person will hold their focus right onto a spot, which is unrealistic).

tl;dr: Tweek's design, in my view, assumes a player focus. You can't really look around the game world much with a "backend" tool window opened, but the idea is that it's less jarring.

Erm it isn't throwing up a layer over the game world, it has a simple backdrop of D'ni (seeming that is what the game is about) akin to how WoW has a backdrop of the races homeland when you're picking a character. There is no backend tool window opened, it is just the log in screen not in the actual game. Not to mention it is an example I used the D'ni backdrop because it was the easiest to create at the time, my initial concepts used relto as a backdrop.

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Beneath - Journey of an explorer in D'ni
UruBlogs - Blogs from Uru Explorers
Tweek@Guild of Writers - Age development Blog.

@Tweek - Nice, Clean and Pro

One could consider a clean version like yours but with more sepia colored GUI.

About the Avatar customization:
For a short time at some point during the first Uru beta there was a whole different system: you wouldn't link to a separate Age, but in Relto when you'd click on the closet the avatar would turn toward the camera and the usual avatar customization GUI would appear next to it. In practice (and as far as I can remember) it worked in a very similar way to the current system but it saved you from linking to a different Age and then back to Relto. It was more streamlined and more immersive.
I'm not sure why that system was dumped, it worked really well..
Of course that means you must already have access to Relto to do that, and you need a separate system for when you first create your avatar. Maybe that's why this system was dumped, out of consistency.
But I always thought we shouldn't be able to change the physical attributes of the avatar after it's been created; just the clothes (and maybe the hairstyle). Or at least we shouldn't be able to do it in-game, so we could keep the current separate Age/GUI system for when you create an avatar or want to update it, and then in-game we could keep the Relto GUI just to switch clothes.
Just my 2cents

Tweek wrote:

Erm it isn't throwing up a layer over the game world, it has a simple backdrop of D'ni (seeming that is what the game is about) akin to how WoW has a backdrop of the races homeland when you're picking a character. There is no backend tool window opened, it is just the log in screen not in the actual game. Not to mention it is an example I used the D'ni backdrop because it was the easiest to create at the time, my initial concepts used relto as a backdrop.

The point was that this broke how Uru has been presented (ideally, in my opinion): You start off not knowing anything about the game world, just creating a character that you might assume could exist in real life. I also think that starting in a generic dialog (or "just the log in screen;" I already specified that I was using the term "backend" as an alias, but apparently that wasn't clear) without a screenshot background (just a textured one) is the way to go because you aren't looking at some image that is going to influence your mood or present spoilers to new players. The picture used seems, to me, to fit the darker look of your proposed UI more than one of the Relto might, and again I raise the question whether that dark look really fits the game. So if you're just putting this up as a concept, sure, I like what buttons I see and the functions they represent (and should have indicated as such) - and that's quite important, but the visual style (from the color to the size and orientation and font on everything) I have issues with.

In short: It would work, but it is too high-contrast, alters the mood, and is larger than I think necessary.

Starting in Relto is admittedly better than in the city, but that's getting into another recent discussion - starting at The Cleft vs. Relto, the two places being raised as possible starting points. I remain in favor of starting at The Cleft for reasons stated in that discussion and touched upon in my previous post in this topic - it just makes more sense and moves the player from the mundane world to Uru's.

I wasn't thinking at all about changing an existing character, but I don't think that changes the point. For changing your character around once the game has started, the closet always worked fine for me. aloys' post gets into some more technical details of it; I've no problem with that and like how it sounds.

Apologies for sounding like I thought it was trash; I didn't mean to insinuate that the functionality is bad.

Whilyam wrote:

I like Tweek's. At least the avatar-showing area. It's very similar to the way other MMOs show off the character. I would rather see the login pages, etc. brightened. Maybe showing off a view of the Cleft to symbolize the explorer going down to D'ni. I never understood why Cyan put a shot of Teledahn on the front.

Probably because Teledahn looked mysterious and cool. As for the darkness, I like it that way. Save the brightness, the high glamorous overwhelming visuals for the game itself.

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Aside from the readability problems posed by the font in Gehn's examples, I think that any attempt to mix the back-end stuff with the immersive experience of Uru is missing the point of the game somewhat.

Um, my examples (by the way, the one to look at is my last example which is much neater and simpler than the older ones) are sketches. I'm using Microsoft Publisher, and I'm just using the closest fonts I can find.

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...The only time you'll usually see this backend is when starting up a game, which is appropriate as the login tools serve as a portal from our world into Uru's. Suspension of disbelief is minimized.

Could you explain your problem again? All the Interface designs I proposed, and most of the ones other people did (I believe) are only to be used when starting up the game.

Quote:

My problem with Tweek's is similar; it's throwing a layer over the game world. I don't think anything is achieved from spoiling (if that's not in-Cavern character modification while logged in I'm looking at, which would be a rather odd, although unique, feature) what the City looks like from the get-go, and I don't think it's a good idea to alter the way the actual game world looks for the sake of a black-and-white high-contrast interface. Recall that the tools, brought up by the bridge, are a little window pasted onto the game world, like a sign in your path. You can knock them down and go right back into the game whenever you like. Importantly, the game world around you is not dimmed or placed behind a translucent layer or any other stuff; it's kinda like the modern FPS games where a character holds up some random gadget and the rest of the world remains as before (perhaps blurred, but I have issues with that since it assumes a person will hold their focus right onto a spot, which is unrealistic).

Again, I'm not sure what your problem is. The black and white is a design feature. It is not intended to be a menu in front of the world. Many games use concept art, screenshots, etc. for beginning menus. As for the avatar view, it is again a design feature. It adds the Uru feeling.

And I happen to like the black and white (/grey) design. It is clean, simple, and elegant. Colorful menus can too easily look cheap and childish.

aloys wrote:

About the Avatar customization:For a short time at some point during the first Uru beta there was a whole different system: you wouldn't link to a separate Age, but in Relto when you'd click on the closet the avatar would turn toward the camera and the usual avatar customization GUI would appear next to it. In practice (and as far as I can remember) it worked in a very similar way to the current system but it saved you from linking to a different Age and then back to Relto. It was more streamlined and more immersive.

I really like the sound of that!

I'm sure I'm not just imagining exasperation in a few of these posts; there's no need for it. You put up sketches and ask for criticism, we criticize them; that's the deal! I'm not planning on putting up any sketches but I certainly won't complain if somebody gives my own ideas a sound brushing-off. I promise to try not to be offensive or dismissive, and likewise...don't take it as a deadly insult, we're all on the same team here (well, some of us are bluer than others, but blue people make good music, so they're all good by me, sirs.)

Gehn, lord of ages wrote:

Whilyam wrote:

I like Tweek's. At least the avatar-showing area. It's very similar to the way other MMOs show off the character. I would rather see the login pages, etc. brightened. Maybe showing off a view of the Cleft to symbolize the explorer going down to D'ni. I never understood why Cyan put a shot of Teledahn on the front.

Probably because Teledahn looked mysterious and cool. As for the darkness, I like it that way. Save the brightness, the high glamorous overwhelming visuals for the game itself.

The brightness is actually strongest in these black and white (maximum contrast) images. I don't know what overwhelming visuals you're referring to; I pointed to the very simple text-and-tan-background look of the old interface windows. It's muted, simplistic, utilitarian and elegant, I think. Size matters: The font you used is pretty huge but isn't actually more easily readable than the small text of the old Uru menus. Imagine it's early in the morning and you want to catch a seminar in Ae'gura...Oops! You misread the text and deleted your character. I'm dramatizing, but I don't think that big + unusual + very white = better than simple and small. Books are printed in a serif font.

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Aside from the readability problems posed by the font in Gehn's examples, I think that any attempt to mix the back-end stuff with the immersive experience of Uru is missing the point of the game somewhat.

Um, my examples (by the way, the one to look at is my last example which is much neater and simpler than the older ones) are sketches. I'm using Microsoft Publisher, and I'm just using the closest fonts I can find.

So Picture4.jpg, the one with Yeesha (Myst V?) on it, is that correct?

When I look at these, I am of course keeping in mind that the font can be improved and that better artwork will be used or created in place of the placeholder stuff. It would be outrageous for me to criticize obvious sketch elements.

So what I looked at was the color balance (too dark, and I posted a link already dealing with problems about super-high-contrast displays), the placement of stuff, menu elements, and

My main impression, outside of the bleak high-contrast look, is...it's highly cluttered. There is no reason for the tilted "shorah explorer" and "blah blah blah" in certain spots (i.e. what is the actual purpose and function of this section? It's a hat, and Cyan got by with descriptions of only a few words), and I don't really understand why a game which is meant to be super-intuitive needs a video. That seems to go go contrary to one of Cyan's design goals in creating Myst Online: to let the player learn how things can be done intuitively, by themselves.

In defense of some of your elements, then: Things are going to be a bit more complicated this time, so I could see each shard wanting to have its own "we focus on the individual's journey, join us for a secluded, quiet atmosphere when you want it, and help when you need it" type text. But then I notice that this text is on the side, and then it's grayed out when the maintainer helmet's text is focused.

One thing that the old boxed Uru (and the GT beta Uru) UI did well was presenting you with only one decision at a time. Do you want to rebind your keys or look at video options? There is a screen for that. Likewise, I think that when you're looking at joining a shard you're making an important choice, but when you've joined that shard you're done with that choice and now you want to look at the hardhat in a 3D model viewer (I don't know why, because the low-detail texture will probably be somewhat embarassing close up on my 1920x1200 monitor, and even worse on the larger 1600x1200 one).

Likewise, there's the large, conspicuous "Uru" logo in a circle featuring prominently in many pictures. It's big, and it'll distract people from what they entered that menu to do; I guarantee it.

I'm a pretty...well, an above average FPS player, and I deal just fine with distractions in gaming. But some people will be utterly befuddled and possibly even intimidated by all these visual elements. Hence I think simplicity is good. I don't think the interface is a good place (outside of special elements like the KI) to really amp up the visual elements, quotes, and imaginative aspects of the game, partly because the game itself is dedicated to doing that (again, through devices like the in-game puzzles, or learning how to use the KI, or reading books).

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...The only time you'll usually see this backend is when starting up a game, which is appropriate as the login tools serve as a portal from our world into Uru's. Suspension of disbelief is minimized.

Could you explain your problem again? All the Interface designs I proposed, and most of the ones other people did (I believe) are only to be used when starting up the game.

I'll give it a shot; unfortunately this is going to run on a bit. Just to make sure we're clear, when I said "backend" (and I think also "tools") I meant the obvious game menus, things like character creation and video options; things that could spoil the immersion if they were constantly brought up during a game. Before they begin running around the Cleft, the player is ideally (I write 'ideally' because we're not going to spoil the plot arc for new players, I hope; it's a fun journey even the fifth time around, but carries the most impact the first time) coming into the game with no distinct impression as to what Uru will be (not counting installer or box spoilers from the days of yore). They are roleplaying themselves or a realistic person journeying from somewhere in the modern world into a secret world hidden beneath our feet that has not given up its secrets for milennia - until now never seen before. Now, this person might have played Myst (made by a gaming company and based on this hidden world) or even some of the later games more like Uru visually, but when they enter it'll still be a unique experience. This is all pretty solidly based in the game canon.

Backing up and catching our breath, many of these simple UI elements are necessary evils. The video options and the login to a shard especially - this is a quiet time where the player prepares themselves to get a good experience, and later they'll leave that. The avatar creation screen, once your game is started, would be best to integrate more naturally into the game because you're obviously playing with your character's looks in the game world, and I think it's most effective when you can pretend to some degree that you're in front of that dresser (naturally with some reservations for the sake of good taste). But for the first time you make your character, you didn't know what Relto was (if you played the boxed version first, anyway, which has the intro that makes the most sense).

So we see why it's not an especially good idea to put spoiler images of Ages not yet visited (Picture12.jpg) on a "Register/Login" page. Yes, I know that the original retail box's velcro flap has a full-panel screenshot of said Age, but when you look at those screens it's of interesting architectural details on the side, not a substantial part of one of the Age's prime vistas. If you were intending that these pictures only appear if somebody has gotten that far in the game, then what about people who share computers? Either way, this approach adds more overhead, which in today's world isn't a major thing (what's a few more graphics on the hard drive) but I think the coding time required to put in all these pictures and stuff could be used better elsewhere.

If nothing else, the KISS principle (keep it simple, Sam) seems to apply in an open source project where people will need time to code up KI improvements and the like.

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My problem with Tweek's is similar; it's throwing a layer over the game world. I don't think anything is achieved from spoiling (if that's not in-Cavern character modification while logged in I'm looking at, which would be a rather odd, although unique, feature) what the City looks like from the get-go, and I don't think it's a good idea to alter the way the actual game world looks for the sake of a black-and-white high-contrast interface. Recall that the tools, brought up by the bridge, are a little window pasted onto the game world, like a sign in your path. You can knock them down and go right back into the game whenever you like. Importantly, the game world around you is not dimmed or placed behind a translucent layer or any other stuff; it's kinda like the modern FPS games where a character holds up some random gadget and the rest of the world remains as before (perhaps blurred, but I have issues with that since it assumes a person will hold their focus right onto a spot, which is unrealistic).

Again, I'm not sure what your problem is. The black and white is a design feature. It is not intended to be a menu in front of the world. Many games use concept art, screenshots, etc. for beginning menus. As for the avatar view, it is again a design feature. It adds the Uru feeling.

Of course it's a design feature; I'm not dumb. It's a design feature that I don't think works. Hopefully I have indicated above sufficently well why many of these choices don't work for Uru (and also that I did adjust for the inherently rough look of these screenshots). Uru is not in the same league as "many games;" it is about exploration, not about showing the bad boss's castle on the loading screen so you have a goal whilst slogging through another linear 3D action adventure with questionable production values and design choices. Uru has used screenshots in places, such as a few dialogs, the installation and box of the retail boxed release, but they were either details or were from parts that were relatively easy to find. It was mainly about selling the game. I don't think we need to sell Uru with screenshots on the UI, especially not to somebody who's already playing the game.

Anyway, that block of text of mine you quoted is pretty opaque and mysterious, but I'm dying to know what your real objection to my thinking is. I mean, I know what a design feature is, and I know how mockups work...where's the actual question? I'd be glad to have a discussion about what fits Uru's theme better, based on what the developers themselves had to say, and the way the game looked when it shipped to retail and was subsequently released in various forms over the years.

Again...it's cool that you took the time to do this, and your screens definitely provoke some good discussion; I don't think they're worthless. At the very least, I'm here writing about why I think we don't need an introduction video, or why we should have (and only need) one window up at a time, and not complex layered ones. But on some fronts I think they sport some wrong design choices, like the clutter and the overuse of contrast.

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And I happen to like the black and white (/grey) design. It is clean, simple, and elegant. Colorful menus can too easily look cheap and childish.

Is the tan Uru interface "cheap and childish?" Whose interface mockup is cheap and childish? I'm not going to say anything else because I don't like where that is leading.

aloys wrote:

But I always thought we shouldn't be able to change the physical attributes of the avatar after it's been created; just the clothes (and maybe the hairstyle). Or at least we shouldn't be able to do it in-game, so we could keep the current separate Age/GUI system for when you create an avatar or want to update it, and then in-game we could keep the Relto GUI just to switch clothes.

I don't see why not. I hate it when games don't let me change the appearance of my character after it's been created, or at least charge massive amounts of (in-game) money to do so. Most things can be changed in real life -- you can dye your hair, there are colored contacts for your eye color, you can gain/lose weight... skin color doesn't change, but you could say you're using body paint. Of course, changing some things would be unrealistic, such as facial features; nose length/width, chin structure, etc... unless you claim to be getting plastic surgery though I still think you should be able to change that, but maybe with a restriction on how often it can be done.

_________________
Nothing to see here, move along.

Incidentally:

Gehn, lord of ages wrote:

StarLion wrote:

You prefer buttons in a black void with no stylistic connection to the game whatsoever?

Yes.

If I wanted a relevant connection to the game, I would make the login a 3D realtime puzzle. The interface should be clean, simple, and quick. It is not the game. Yes, the interface should be well designed and mystical, but it should not cover or obscure the game.

A KI or bookshelf themed GUI is, in my opinion, tacky and unnecessary. Keep the design clean, simple, spare, and elegant. Let people enjoy Uru, not your interface.

I agree with Gehn here, although I didn't like the black. The interface indeed should be all the things Gehn has said it should be

On the other hand, I think StarLion's KI revamp has some ideas I find interesting. The news scroll for one - not sure what I think about how useful it would be, since I find "regular" emails more useful. But it's an interesting use of the space for certain.

Herohtar wrote:

aloys wrote:

But I always thought we shouldn't be able to change the physical attributes of the avatar after it's been created; just the clothes (and maybe the hairstyle). Or at least we shouldn't be able to do it in-game, so we could keep the current separate Age/GUI system for when you create an avatar or want to update it, and then in-game we could keep the Relto GUI just to switch clothes.

I don't see why not. I hate it when games don't let me change the appearance of my character after it's been created, or at least charge massive amounts of (in-game) money to do so. Most things can be changed in real life -- you can dye your hair, there are colored contacts for your eye color, you can gain/lose weight... skin color doesn't change, but you could say you're using body paint. Of course, changing some things would be unrealistic, such as facial features; nose length/width, chin structure, etc... unless you claim to be getting plastic surgery though I still think you should be able to change that, but maybe with a restriction on how often it can be done.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be possible at all, just that it should be possible only before you actually log in the game. Because IC-speaking if someone can change his physical appearance it would take time, and it wouldn't happen in D'ni. That would avoid the weird situations of seing someone go to his Relto and come back just two minutes later looking totally different... While this can be fun I don't think it belongs to Uru.

aloys wrote:

I'm not saying it shouldn't be possible at all, just that it should be possible only before you actually log in the game. Because IC-speaking if someone can change his physical appearance it would take time, and it wouldn't happen in D'ni. That would avoid the weird situations of seing someone go to his Relto and come back just two minutes later looking totally different... While this can be fun I don't think it belongs to Uru.

Well, it doesn't necessarily take that much time, and the changes don't have to be physical... in real life one can step into their wardrobe/bathroom, put on makeup or even a mask, change clothes, etc and come out looking like an entirely different person. Maybe the whole process would take a bit more than two minutes, but it's definitely a plausible thing.

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Nothing to see here, move along.