The purpose of the thread wasnt necessarily to speculate regarding Watcher's Sanctuary but to speculate regarding the what-could-have-beens in Uru in general. My theory on the Sanctuary was to segue into that topic

Another thought that occurred to me is the fact that the tree is, according to Simpson's report much older by a factor of thousands of years than the pub itself. The connection to Noloben could be the connection to the Bahro, IE: the Tree is of Bahro origin, not D'ni origin. Adding to this wild bit of speculation is the fact that the location of the tree is said to be a part of the Cavern of Rolep which is one of the pending restoration areas listed on the DRC site. We know the "Bahro Cave" above the lake is called Rudenna, or the Rudenna cavern so perhaps Rolep too is a Bahro Cave?

And someone mentioned the connection to Kemo in regards to the Bahro. One other thing that I noticed about Eder Kemo is that if you follow the basin all the way around you will find an odd discoloration near the top of the Age.
Kemo is the name for the fish swimming in the small stream and Eder is D'ni for rest. My theory regarding that ring is that in the original plan for Eder Kemo the violent rainstorms that sometimes occur are meant to cause the Age to flood as evidenced by the ring, a telltale sign of raised water level. Perhaps in the flooded Kemo we would be able to see beyond the rim of the basin to what the Age really looks like..
Of course none of this was ever implemented and so there currently is nothing beyond the rim.. It's all just wild speculation at this point

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Fear is the mind-killer

Simone wrote:

Yep, the connection is convincing! However, why would Noloben be so special to the D'ni, and to whoever built the Sanctuary in particular? Am I missing something?

You're missing that the elements linking these two areas did not come from the D'ni. The image on the door looks to me like a bahro glyph, or at least not D'ni in origin. And the link inside the tree is Yeesha's doing, certainly beyond the capabilities of D'ni (so even if the image might have been D'ni in origin the event that it apparently depicts could not have been). There's no reason to believe that the tree was anything more than a spiritual symbol for the D'ni; indeed, since Kadish blocked access to it there's reason to believe that it wasn't!

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In Cavern: Dryhad (KI: 01316560)

I've actually seen hints in the original artwork and age files that Eder Kemo's rain wasn't supposed to be on a timer. Some theorized that the floating statue in the center of the age was supposed to turn the rain on and off. There were even some concept art that I can't seem to locate where the arms of the statue extended.

The theory, full of A LOT of speculation, was that Eder Kemo was supposed to be another manufactured proof, by Kadish, that he was the grower.

It's another interesting parallel between Kadish and Yeesha and the cleft.

Calmiche,
While that is certainly interesting, according to RAWA, Kadish was not the original deceiver trying to fool people into thinking he was The Grower. Kadish Tolesa was an Age that was planned and modeled much later than the rest of Uru during the MUDPIE era. The MUDPIE Ages we know of were Ahnonay, Kemo, Watcher's Sanctuary, Noloben, Teledahn, and The Great Shaft
I too have seen the concept art of the device with the arms extended, in fact, a bahro glyph depicts it on the wall in that very Age. I hadn't thought of it controlling the rain though.. It would be really great if somehow deleted story ideas could be either reintroduced or at the very least published in a "behind-the-scenes" sort of thing.
I'd love to know what Noloben was supposed to be, or what the Seers plot was going to be about. I know that some of this info is still being kept secret in the hopes that it may one day be realized in the game and that's fantastic. But it has been said that a lot of the original stories for much of the current Ages are no longer relevant and so were changed to suit the release in the form of the expansions and Myst V

For an idea of exactly how old much of the content we have really is consider the following:
RealMYST was the test for the Headspin Engine which would become known as Plasma 1.0 and as such a great deal of what makes up Uru was modeled in that engine originally. The crystal viewer in Rime is actually accessing an encrypted video file that contains snippets of Ages seen for only a fraction of a second. Decrypting the file some very old images depict some very familiar things.. Bear in mind this is all either test content or unfinished ideas, and "Vika" was never intended to be in the game. It was designed as a means of testing different lighting effects.. but consider RealMYST came out in 2000.. 3 years before the first closed beta of Uru Live
http://math.berkeley.edu/~schepler/huevo/

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Fear is the mind-killer

I actually like the important part Kadish got in the storyline of Uru. There is also a theory that Kadish is the guy who killed Calam- a theory supported by many facts in the games (I like this theory, although I don't like the timetravel stuff).

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Previously known as "The stranger"

Calmiche wrote:

I've actually seen hints in the original artwork and age files that Eder Kemo's rain wasn't supposed to be on a timer. Some theorized that the floating statue in the center of the age was supposed to turn the rain on and off. There were even some concept art that I can't seem to locate where the arms of the statue extended.

The theory, full of A LOT of speculation, was that Eder Kemo was supposed to be another manufactured proof, by Kadish, that he was the grower.

It's another interesting parallel between Kadish and Yeesha and the cleft.

Hmmmm... I think I know the image you're remembering, and it actually isn't concept art. Some years ago, in another speculation thread, a fan made an image of the statue with the arms extended (and two arrows showing from where they extended) - but it was simply a fan rendition.

I'm interested in the hints you've seen in the age files, though... care to point out the relevant info?

Man JP. You would have to call me on this when I don't have any way to get into Uru. I'm away from my computer and home on an old laptop for a couple weeks.

Okay, I'm working from memory here. If anyone wants to take pics of the places I describe, I'd be grateful. Remember here, nothing is definite. Most of this is speculation. You'll have to draw your own conclusions.

There are a couple of interesting locations in Eder Kemo. Coming close to the statue, there is a pillar that has been broken off. It has Yeesha's symbol on it, indicating that it may have been done on purpose. I'm also vaguely remembering a button or a broken lever at the base of the machine.

If you take apart the Age, there are a couple other things. There's an unfinished area towards the back of the age that can't be reached. Or at least there was. It was just a small area with grass growing in it. Also, somewhere in the age, there is a non functioning linking book. It isn't actually connected to anything. I seem to remember it being under the statue, but I could be wrong.

And the links for Kadish are fairly tentative. However, next time you're there, do take a look at the ground inside one of the gazebos. There's an inlaid, tile representation of Ahnonay. It isn't a bahro glyph or something that Yeesha added but rather something that's been there a long time.

And lastly, there's this Bahro glyph, usually referred to as EK7.

I don't believe this is Kerath's Arch either. That was depicted differently in EK11.

Check the upper right corner. I believe that's the volcano, the cleft, the journey through the shaft and to the left of that, the arch.

These clues, coupled with the fact that every other age has some sort of power source that Eder Kemo is lacking, lead me to believe that this age still contains mysteries. Whether this was something that Yeesha did, the Bahro did, or just leftovers from a canceled storyline, I have no idea. I just can't believe that this stuff didn't mean something at one time.

Last edited by Calmiche on Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

ThedStranger wrote:

I actually like the important part Kadish got in the storyline of Uru. There is also a theory that Kadish is the guy who killed Calam- a theory supported by many facts in the games (I like this theory, although I don't like the timetravel stuff).

Interesting. You know, I always thought that the notes in the vault meant that for some reason Yeesha had saved *Kadish*. I hadn't thought about it being Calam before. And for that matter--is the skeleton we find in the vault supposed to Calam's? (Which gets really weird when you put instancing into an IC context--there's a bunch of copies of that skelie around. )

I'd REALLY like to know what the whole thing with Calam was.. That for me is one of the biggest mysteries of the current canon. It's such an important part because it's the point where Yeesha truly lost her innocence. She says she "caused Calam's death" and that "Calam was murdered" and also that she "destroyed the murderer" .. Destroyed.. not "killed". If she caused his death but he was murdered then that seems to suggest a third unknown individual that Yeesha either helped or saved. Perhaps Tel Nava Kadish killed Calam. I don't really buy that though. Kadish's note seems to suggest he was being hunted by something. Incomplete as its translation is, it certainly shows a great sense of urgency and fear..lerochai zuhoy
I have [met (?)] my end.

.mahnshootahvting mileshen zoo
[Mortality (?)] [overwhelms (?)] me.

.yim rahshahthon
I see its [???].

.dohahrtenen gah dofolesen kheveelaioy b’koozah
It is [waiting (?)] and [watching (?)] for my soul to [depart (?)].

.veechtahvteeon rifeeneet sahethoy
Its [acquisitions (?)] [surpass (?)] my [own].


.korvahkhtee keneet tomet roob ril bokoozah
There are linking books here but I will not [depart (?)]

.le’emee
I have [decided (?)].

.ken tomet te biv roo míruh
I am here with all that I would [desire (?)].

.rilrovchahnshentoen tah me zoo
No one [can (?)] take [it] from me.

.bomahnshoo tomet te eest
I will die here with [them].

.to met kenen bahvahnin gah bojikahen bahvahnin
This place is [hidden (?)] and will [remain] [hidden (?)].

.khoy hevtee met dohooreet pahl rifoonemah roo ril kokino
[If] these words are found [anyway (?)], [remember] that I did not [surrender (?)]!

.ril komahnshoo te rildil
I did not die with [nothing].

.komahnshoo te bivdil
I died with [everything].

.fitaiemah se tsosahtahvteeoy
[Look (?)] at my [possessions]!

.pishoeet b’zoo gah bokeneet t’zoo tsahn
They [belong] to me and will be with me forever.


.shorah
Peace.

Tel Nahvah Kaidish
Guild Master Kadish
(note: words within brackets are educated guesses)

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Fear is the mind-killer

To me it was quite obvious that Yeesha brought Kadish back to life, and he killed Calam. Yes, we can his skeleton, because this is "a different time" of the age. We can also find a book to a different version of the vault, without his skeleton, probably where she brought him to life.

Please read this: http://home.earthlink.net/~seizuretown/myst/bahrocave4.html

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Previously known as "The stranger"

wow I had not seen those bahro glyphs talking about the battle between yeesha and the unknown assailant. Very interesting stuff.

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Fear is the mind-killer

Calmiche wrote:

And lastly, there's this Bahro glyph, usually referred to as EK7.

I don't believe this is Kerath's Arch either. That was depicted differently in EK11

That's not the statue that is a D'ni person (like the statue is a representation of a D'ni person), D'ni people were often stylized with big shoulders to mask the elongated heads that they were uncomfortable with, the style of their robes further played on that IIRC.

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I just found this old image that is clearly of MUDPIE era Noloben but from an angle Ive never seen before.. Very very interesting..

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Fear is the mind-killer

A couple of belated thoughts about the speculation in this thread.

1) In Loshem's first post, notice in the last (indeed very interesting) image, that there are Bahro numerals near the left and right edges of the encircled picture. If these stand for "coordinates" of some sort, then they might confirm the identity of the tree in question. If a convincing interpretation of these numbers could be proposed, it might also support (at least partially) an interpretation of the Bahro numeric system.

2) Even more enigmatic, but perhaps more pertinent to the underlying significance of what one may have seen on Noloben, is the writing in the larger of the collage of images which Loshem included in his latest post. The interesting thing about this is that it seems to show that various texts on Noloben are parts of a continuous explanation or "story."

Thus compare the upper part of this:
Left center of the cliff text

with this:
Half of the repeated text on the building


Or compare this:
Far right of the cliff text

with the lower part of this:
Part of the pedestal text


An independent point of contact between these "game" images and the "reality" of the Cavern can be found on Minkata, where some of the same Bahro symbols occur in a bilingual text that one could hardly miss seeing there. But, as with the numerals, corroboration must await the development of a convincing interpretation of these writings.

Shorah,
Kh'reestrefah