I would agree that the Myst movie ought to have an impact. There seems to be a large audience for sci-fi/fantasy/adventure these days, judging from the popularity of Harry Potter, Narnia, etc. And really, there are many similarities between Narnia and Myst, at least as far as atmosphere. I don't see any reason Myst couldn't rank right up there with the bigger names.

But as you say, Jahmen, as far as video games go people are moving towards violence based games rather than exlporation/puzzle games. It is sad from our standpoint and in a more philisophical mood I might say it is sad for our culture. People don't want to explore and rebuild a civilization, they want to kill and destroy that which already exists. That's not to say everyone who plays the action video games are violent, because most of them probably just like the challenge. But such a collective movement towards violence is unsettling. Not to mention that people are trading the intellectual rewards of a game like Myst for the momentary adrenaline rush that comes from a game like Halo.

In the group here we often see the statement that people are moving toward more violence based games. It is repeated so often that some probably believe it. The stats just don't support it.

Wow, EVE and others have combat and violence. But Wow has 10 million players. Backyard Monsters 2 million. Farmville has 80 million.

People are moving to games they enjoy. For the majority that is not violence.

That people prefer to destroy over build... again the stats don't support it. There are far more players building than destroying. All the fast growing games involve building. Farmville, FronteirVille, Minecraft... others games are adding types of building.

We can find individual exceptions but when one looks at overall stats and what the most players are doing, it becomes obvious what the majority of humans prefer.

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Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULagain: Nal KI#00 083 543, Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers

I just completed MYST V for the second time. Even more exciting and fun than the first time when I wasn't sure I could solve all the puzzles. Used no notes, but just let it flow, and spent more time noodling around each age, checking out the fantastic artwork and designs that they put together. Wow and wow!

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vmorris
KI#01807516

"Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."
Sir Arthur Eddington

My thread post focus was meant to follow the thread topic "state of Cyan" more about the need for CYAN funds for MOUL,a to grow new content and Open Source and how the proposed movie might help that. Other games (violent or not) competing against CYAN interests were secondary. But I will address Nalates post to our misconceptions to gaming trends.

Nalates wrote:

Quote:

In the group here we often see the statement that people are moving toward more violence based games. It is repeated so often that some probably believe it. The stats just don't support it.

You may well be right about the repeated part, but I’m not so sure it is limited to just being the group here and I'm not so sure what defines your idea of who are in or make up this group here.

What I stated was based upon my own experience, not stats, which I believe is based upon what most of us in the USA commonly, see being put before us on a day to day basis. What we see being reported in the news and advertised on TV; found on rental CD’s, internet / game sites, etc. that when it comes to violent video games, that's what I'm seeing promoted the most.
Violent video games might be a more accurate concern here than just the stated beliefs to more and more people playing them; a natural assumption one might have based upon every day media influences. There are also reports that the military now uses violent video games to train and desensitize solders with, which also relates to the concerns of the effects violent video games can have on players.

However, I consider the topic of violence, like many, to be open ended to interpretation and points of view.
Violence, like nudity and language are judged according to a wide range of cultural demographics spread around the world’s country’s economic, religious and social cultural norms that are constantly evolving and changing.

Quote:

There are far more players building than destroying.

Do you base this upon a solid body of evidence you have found?

I know that I often run across such stats and other information that I file away mentally, but would be hard pressed to back track to find again if asked.
So I’m just asking you if it isn’t a big deal for you to do, I would like to see your supportive evidence (stats) to your stating us having misconceptions in a trend to what players are moving towards.

NOTE: Here is my problem with the use of statistics though.
Statistics are usually generated with and for a particular result or outcome in mind.
So they tend to be set up or used in a manner that isn’t so neutral to a truly accurate outcome result absent bias.
My point, when it comes to what is and isn’t violence, it is a very subjective subject, so one must look closely at the criteria being used that defines the threshold level of violence within video games as a statistic.
What you, I and others consider to be a non-violent game, others might consider as being violent.
Some might even argue that tearing down buildings to rebuild new ones is violence!
My point is that while statistics can be used to support a point of view about game trends, again I point out one must look closely at the criteria with which those statistics were arrived at.
Defining what constitutes what is and isn't game violence can become a whole other topic in and of itself.

Many would acknowledge the constant changes to the ratings systems in their own country over the course of time that has progressively moved the line definition to what is the acceptability violence level for the general public.
I’m guessing like most; it has become more, not less, when it comes to content of violence.
Game violence as a worldwide trend might be characterized to varied shades of taste.
Many games have settings and themes with varied levels to subtle violence well masked within them.

When it comes to groups and repeated stated beliefs in forum threads, everything becomes subjective under our worlds diverse social cultural ever changing norms that separate us all here.

I’m open to the idea that what I’m seeing marketed might not reflect accurately what most people today who game are trending towards playing.

I would much rather we discuss CYAN's potential financial future for how MOUL,a might be benefited though.

Nalates does have a point, though. I myself have noticed the vast popularity of Farmville at least. But it still seems like marketing campaigns are pushing violence. It's all I ever see advertised, and mostly what I see sold in stores. Maybe it's because basing the excitement of a game on something repetitive (such as shooting) is easier and cheaper to mass produce. If fun comes through adrenaline, you don't need to spend resources on stories, scenery, or creating puzzles.

So it could be a hopeful thing for Cyan, if there is a large potential audience who is not currently being targeted by other companies.

Teknobubba wrote:

Teknobubba comes to for a moment at this comment...

tanshin wrote:

Considering that area is explorable in Myst V, and we know a certain group knows how to make that playable in Uru, it probably isn't too hard for Cyan to bring that up when you think about it.

...and mumbles, "Why not the whole of Myst V?" He silently slips off to lurk until next time.

I do believe that there are some copyrights standing in the way of content from Myst 3/4/5 being release to MO:UL.
Look at this page to see that Ubisoft probably have the rights to Myst 3-5... Think I've read something about this earlier, in the Gametap era of MO:UL

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"Why do they call it rush hour when nothing moves?" - Robin Williams

Jahmen wrote:

Nalates wrote:

There are far more players building than destroying.

Do you base this upon a solid body of evidence you have found?

I would like to see your supportive evidence (stats) to your stating us having misconceptions in a trend to what players are moving towards.

I understand what you are saying about violence. The images and gameplay, when they are addictive and desensitizing and, for a malevolent few, not just simply entertainment, can be distressing. But because you use the word 'players,' I feel justified in keeping strictly to the idea of computer games, and not addressing the extremes in a wider scope of real violence in the media and real world.

Change is interesting. Dramatic change is exciting. Destruction is generally the easiest way to get that. It's the difference between watching the grass grow or the forest burn and, actually, both have their place in nature. It's axiomatic that destroying is easier than building, or falling is easier than climbing, because that's how entropy works. It is arguable that seeing certain types of computer games as violent because of its imagery is the result of losing oneself in its "ICness" rather than taking a more OOC point of view.

Computer games are only images at the front end of a long chain of events. The images of destruction and construction are equally anentropic, meaning it takes the same work to build either of them; there is no difference. Like anything else in existence, there is a food chain - from the industry that builds the technology to the designers and implementers to the people who buy and and support the families of everyone making a profit from the entertainment. The players themselves are adding - ironically, in games of destruction - to this anentropic process by doing work. The work is adding to a database of persistent story and gameplay, such as in an MMO, via finger pushes, mouse movements, electrons or photons and radio waves over various medium, and ultimately magnetic charges on storage devices. Violent or not, WoW or Uru, images of destruction or peaceful vistas, it all looks the same behind the screen - constructive work was done and the building continues.

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OpenUru.org: An Uru Project Resource Site : Twitter : Perfect Speed Is Being There.

Excellent points, JW. In other words, sometimes the forest must burn in order for the grass to grow.

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OpenUru.org Minkata Test Shard is
OU-Minkata Shard Testers Guide (in laymen's terms)

@ Jahmen & further along JWP…
I push the idea that personal opinion lacks the objectivity and the knowledge to clearly reveal what direction Uru development needs to take to become popular. If one wants to continue to be guided by their personal views and casually formed opinions taken from mass-media, it’s their choice. I think there is a smarter path.

Jahmen wrote, “Statistics are usually generated with and for a particular result or outcome in mind. “ I think that is a fallacy stated as fact. Can anyone prove it accurate? I’m not saying it does not happen. The statement indicates it is the norm. All the evidence I’ve seen suggest the majority of polls and stats are gathered to gain knowledge without bias and that is the norm.

Statistics can be manipulated to push/support an agenda. When one looks at raw data and cross checks with what is going on in the world, they can be pretty accurate.

A good example of miss use is the potato-prisoner stat. 90 to 100% of violent criminals in jail eat potatoes. Therefore potatoes cause violent behavior. That does not discredit statistics. It discredits the one using stats and the one simple enough to believe it. One has to have enough brain power to take the next step and question the information and look at the other side of the stat. It’s called critical thinking and intellectual honesty.

For months I’ve read lots about game design and game studies. I’ve posted studies here that point toward what I consider serious omissions from Uru. The game design studies have progressed past surface level descriptions of ‘people like violence.’ Psychologists and game developers are looking into what it is about violent games people like.

I’ve realized violence is NOT the factor that attracts the masses. Stated as I have here, it is opinion. It is reasonable to assume I may have formed opinion from mass-media influence. But, I think the idea that people like violence is more the mass-media’s opinion and the idea they promote, which we see put forth on this form for why Uru is not so popular.

So… what are the stats?


These give some related information and are from the sources shown and from an article about whether video games cause violence. Reference The interesting stat is violent crime has decreased as sales of violent games increased, unrelated but interesting and contrary to popular opinion.

Top rated games are listed at Gamespot. Super Mario is the top game and has been for some time. Super Mario Galaxy is also the top game on Wii (2010). While not a hard, pertinent stat it does contribute to where I’m going.

The 15 Most Addictive Flash Games, 2010

While best games ratings are interesting they don’t tell us where the most players are playing.

Video Game Stats – Includes number of players and top 5 selling console video games. This is only what they are buying and may not accurately reflect popularity.

Video Game Statistics / Video Game Industry Stats – You have to look through lots of numbers to find those related to this discussion. So, I’ve quoted what I think are the most pertinent;

GrabStats wrote:

Fastest growing entertainment software category in 2007: The genre with the greatest growth was "Family Entertainment," which grew 110 percent over the previous year. Family games accounted to 17.2 percent of all games sold in 2007, more than one of every six games sold, up from 9.1 percent in 2006. In addition, of the games sold in 2007, 56.6 percent were rated "Early Childhood (EC)," "Everyone (E)" and "Everyone 10+ (E10+)." The NPD Group's data also indicates that only 15 percent of games sold last year were rated "Mature (M)."

Top-Selling Video Game Genres in 2007 by Units Sold 4.7% (Strategy), 4.3% (Adventure), 4.5% (Fighting), 17.6% (Family), 7.6% (Role Playing), 12.1% (Shooter), 8.3% (Racing), 14.1% (Sports), 22.3% (Action), 0.7% (Flight), 0.5% (Arcade), 1.0% (Children), 2.3% (Other)

Top-Selling Computer Game Genres in 2007 by Units Sold 33.9% (Strategy), 5.0% (Adventure), 14.3% (Family), 18.8% (Role Playing), 11.6% (Shooter), 1.5% (Racing) 2.5% (Sports), 2.6% (Action), 2.2% (Flight), 0.9% (Arcade), 3.5% (Children), 3.0% (Other)

Facebook and Facebook games far over shadow the general game industry. But, the stats aren’t really out to give a clear indication of what is happening. Reference: Washington Post – They use 500 million and other sources put it at 800 million. A cursory look at Facebook games reveals what may be an aspect of Flash based games rather than computer games in general. Violence based games don’t seem to fit well into Flash. Mafia War’s is not the typical First Person Shooter we commonly associate with violent games. But, that is another issue. The massive adoption of Facebook games suggests what people do like and it is the creative and non-violent games growing the fastest.

When one looks deeper into the psychology of game play the common aspects of popular games are person-to-person interaction, creativity, and challenge. Challenge may be come in the form of violence. So, it is easy to adopt the simple position violence is popular. Facebook suggests something else.

JWP points out what I’ll label the energy physics of construction and destruction and what may be considered violent. Storms can be violent but I believe that is not the type of violence meant by those proclaiming it is so sad people are moving on to violent games and abandoning Myst-Uru.

Good stats lag behind and studies even farther. Jahmen’s statement, “When it comes to groups and repeated stated beliefs in forum threads, everything becomes subjective under our worlds diverse social cultural ever changing norms that separate us all here.” But, Jahmen saying everything is subjective is inaccurate. Objective data is available whether we use it or not. Jahmen is precisely on point when he states we typically use subjective information in this forum. But, the point is to get us off imprecise broad statements and get us to more precise definitions and objective information. While what is or is not violent is different for each person we can agree on some standard and move forward. That is how the world works. We don’t have to agree just come to a consensus for the discussion of a farther point. The point challenged is which way people are moving, not what precisely is or is not a violent game. Generality can suffice in this case because of the huge numbers.

Are more people moving to what people in general consider violent games? Some believe so. I think significant and quantifiable facts show otherwise.

_________________
Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULagain: Nal KI#00 083 543, Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers

What I think happens is that, sometimes, people put things like facebook games into a category of "not games'. They pretend they don't count. It also happened with The Sims, not a violent game and a huge best seller.

Some facebook games do have violent themes -- Mafia wars is pretty popular, but not as popular a Farmville.

That doesn't mean people don't like games with a violent elements, or action element. And it's not so "one or the other". I know people who love Myst who also play Word of Warcraft (or Guild Wars, or LOTRO, others) and/or first person shooters.

What I continue to think is that one of the reasons Uru failed is because Cyan did not figure out how to have enough to do in the game.

Also -- got a chuckle out of the chart Natales posted -- yeah, Guitar Hero, that's some violent game!

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Retired forum mod, mszv, amarez in Uru (KI 89257), other online games
Blog - http://www.amarez.com, Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/amareze

samer as solitaire XD

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Love Jesus the Lord our God. Also I am not affiliated with HeadSpin or Cyan.

I think there's also the idea of competition going on. I'm beta testing an MMO, Rift -- we can talk about it now, it's an open beta, and it's not that hard to get in the beta. I'm also reading the offical Rift forums. From what I've read, there's a decent number of people out there who really like PvP - player versus player combat. I think the number is overstated a bit (my opinion) because (also my opinion) PvP players tend to post more on MMORPG forums than more peaceable types. Yeah, sure, this is in-game violence, but if you read the forums I think it has a lot more to do with competition than game violence. As far as I can tell, the same sort of trash talking you might see in games (sometimes, though not as much on the Rift forums) is the kind of thing you might see between players at a basketball game. I'm not into it, I'm not competitive in game, but I recognize that everyone, including me, is competitive about something.

And for the record, I'm a pretty lousy MMORPG player, and I don't PvP (player versus player) -- PvE -- player versus environment for me -- I fight the evil in the world. I do like them, but I tend to have a short attention span, and I'm not that good at them. And I'm so not addicted -- I just started World of Warcraft (with Cataclysm I wanted to see what everyone was talking about), and I'm still at....level 2!

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Retired forum mod, mszv, amarez in Uru (KI 89257), other online games
Blog - http://www.amarez.com, Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/amareze

content and replay-ability !! these are the largest weaknesses in games that are "exploration/puzzle based".

the attraction to games such as Farmville or other Flash based games is simply that they are simple and have no completion. These games can be logged in to at any time and played briefly or for long periods of time, mindlessly and endlessly. The game updates are little more than different versions of the same content.

In Order for Exploration/Puzzle/Strategy genre games to keep an audience, there must be regular updates or value in replaying existing content. The sparklies were an interesting addition, as were feathers, markers, and seasonal clothing, causing players to explore further and proving that it does not necessarily take new ages to extend the play time and interest in the cavern.

Fans of Myst and its many branches became fans because of the content. There are few people that are truly fans MOULagain in its current stagnant state, rather they are fans of what has been and what has been said to come.

humans are simple though, give them something to do and they will do it. when they have run out of things to do they find something else to do.

Those fans of Myst that seek something to do have found something else to do (be it SL, WOW, RL, solitaire, or even Facebook. At least until such time as they find that there is again something to do within the Cavern, they will continue to linger away.

regardless of advertising / promotion / funding / storyline / characters / functionality / features / friends / schedule / or ANYTHING ELSE , if players/explorers do not feel that there is something to do then they will do nothing.

so ... we ... wait ...

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patience is like eating soup with a fork, one may not be satisfied quickly but it is easier to savor the meal

KI#283599

Soup_Fork said:

Quote:

humans are simple though, [...]

In my experience, that is vastly untrue, but maybe this is not the time to wax philosophical.

Personally, I'm going to wait until you close that paren

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All your base 25 are belong to us

For a solo player game, if you price it right, I think replayability is not as much of an issue. Adventure games still sell, in a niche market, though they tend to be on the low end of the price spectrum for games.

For mmos, you really have to have stuff to do.

In an interesting twist, World of Warcraft now has a secondary profession, archeology
http://www.wowpedia.org/Archaeology
http://www.wowwiki.com/Archaeology

You look for artifacts, use it to learn more about the history, the lore of the world, and (being WoW) you get stuff too. It's a gathering profession. It's a secondary profession, presumably because there's not enough stuff to take up all your time, and there's that combat part taking up much of your time. I'm still at a very low level (level 3 now!) so I don't get to do archaeology yet..

If you think about it, that's the sort of thing that could have been done in Uru, though I think you'd have to spawn the stuff programmatically, so there's enough stuff. Other gathering professions would have worked well in Uru -- perhaps finding the parts to a machine, then you assemble it, and it does something. These are essentially solo professions (can't see how they can be multiplayer) but people can talk about what they gathered, and you won't get to see the stuff or get stuff until you do it yourself. I think the collection idea is something that would have worked, along with doing big stuff that, for example, opens new areas of the game.

Ah well -- one day, for the next incarnation of Uru!

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On stories and games with combat, for MMORPGs, that's just wrong, the idea that combat means no stories. Lots of story in Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, World of Warcraft, others. These are not cheap, easy to make games -- they are games with big budgets and a lot of content. On story in action games -- think story is big in a lot of them -- I'd have to research.

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Retired forum mod, mszv, amarez in Uru (KI 89257), other online games
Blog - http://www.amarez.com, Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/amareze