This topic has been split from "Perception is Everything", to address Bridging the gap between OU (OpenUru.org) and GoW (Guild of Writers). H'Uru refers to the Guild of Writers members who are working on open source Uru software, including the CWE ("Cyan Worlds Engine") Myst Online client, the 3DSMax plugin, and the alternative plugin for Blender called PyPRP.
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PaladinofKaos and Adam and others have recently made a number of rather salient observations and suggestions, while expressing disappointment that:
(a) They weren't consulted about how to prepare for and conduct the source release, and
(b) OU wasn't ready at source code release, and
(c) OU seems to prefer discussing suggestions rather than implementing them.

(a) and (b) are in the past. On (c), I can understand why this is a problem..

From the GoW perspective, they've been working together for years, have worked out what is generally right, and they're past the team-building exercises and figuring out whose opinions are usually correct on which topics. They are a team that has moved through all of the forming/storming/norming unpleasantness and they are performing. Having to deal with OU team's opinions and desire for discussion is very frustrating to them. Trying to fit together with OU sets them back to the forming stage. They don't want to do that. They're through with that. They want to keep performing.

From the OU perspective, I know OU wants to do things right. OU doesn't intend to reject suggestions from others. They want to consider everyone's opinions and build consensus. That takes time but that's how you get buy-in, right? So that's what OU is trying to do.

Except buy-in is something you try to achieve when you're forming, not when you're already performing. So while the GoW/H'Uru folks want OU to just implement their suggestions already, OU is trying to ensure that they've found solutions that satisfy both the GoW and OU.

How can we get the two groups working together without impeding the GoW too much? I have every bit of confidence that together these teams can accomplish a lot more than they can separately. But OU is going to need to time-box the discussion of suggestions and move to solutions faster, and the GoW is going to have to accept a bit of a performance "hit" for a while to allow discussions to take place. Each team needs to get to know the other a bit better and develop some respect for each other.

Edited 11-Jun-2011 to add introductory explanation at top -- Marten

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Last edited by Marten on Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:20 am; edited 2 times in total

I don't disagree with any of that except this persistent division into two groups - us and them, OU and GoW - all the while not convincing us that we're in this together and that the future may bring more people and more groups. We need to do our best to consider them and not elevate ourselves above future productive community members and external groups who will want a fair shake as well. More consistently inclusive language often helps a great deal to avoid manufactured divisions where behavior follows community dogma and expectations.

That said, I understand we're currently two fairly distinct organizations who need to get it together, and that's all we have to work with at the moment to keep things going. With your collective help, of course.

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My perception is...
that no one on either side is going to like my idear, but I've recently become accustomed to not caring what anyone thinks of me, so...

I think team members from both groups need to chat with each other in real time and not about the issues - just chat and get to know each other. Talk about the weather or find something you have in common other than Uru. Honestly, I think it would make a world of difference in everyone's perception of each other.

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Tai'lahr wrote:

My perception is...
that no one on either side is going to like my idear, but I've recently become accustomed to not caring what anyone thinks of me, so...

I think team members from both groups need to chat with each other in real time and not about the issues - just chat and get to know each other. Talk about the weather or find something you have in common other than Uru. Honestly, I think it would make a world of difference in everyone's perception of each other.

For what it's worth, I agree. However, some of the issues prevent people on both sides from wanting to do this. Some issues are personal.

Re. Platt: I'm glad to hear you disagree with this division, however my view of OU has been that you *say* you want everyone to work with you but you are ignoring the issues and solutions people are raising. As such, people like the Writers are deciding that working on their own will be less frustrating.

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-Whilyam

My perception is that the majority of us, myself included, completely misinterpreted Nalates' intentions with this thread and hijacked it for our own purposes - some good; some not so good. IMO, it produced a few good opportunities to open up dialogues, but it can also contribute to tensions. I think it's time to let her get it back on topic and take our discussions regarding improving communication, bridging the gap, mending fences, etc. elsewhere.

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ô¿ô......All URU need is love!......ô¿ô

Thanks, Veralun! I didn't mean to step on Nalates' toes. As discussion progressed, it became apparent that I had.

Whilyam wrote:

Re. Platt: I'm glad to hear you disagree with this division, however my view of OU has been that you *say* you want everyone to work with you but you are ignoring the issues and solutions people are raising. As such, people like the Writers are deciding that working on their own will be less frustrating.

I'm going to try something experimental. Everywhere I'd normally say OU, I'm going to say "the MOSS developers and IT team". Everywhere I'd normally say "GoW", I'll say "the CWE and Tools developers."

Disclaimer: I've not been working closely with either [the MOSS developers and IT team] or [the CWE and Tools developers], though I have some history as JW's friend.

From my perspective, JW and [the MOSS developers and IT team] aren't so much ignoring problems as they are not treating them with the urgency desired. To me, ignoring a problem means either not acknowledging that it exists or pretending that it will go away on its own. (If I've missed a situation where a problem was pointed out and no-one among [the MOSS developers and IT team] responded at all, I'll reconsider my view.)

Whether issues are ignored or simply not prioritized, either way I can understand why [the CWE and Tools developers] are choosing to work separately. In the short term, the decision makes a lot of sense. I just hope it's only a short term decision until [the MOSS developers and IT team] find a way to provide more value and support to the Open Source Uru initiative.

There are two very general areas in which [the MOSS developers and IT team] can do this in ways beneficial to [the CWE and Tools developers]:
* [The MOSS developers and IT team] could provide service(s) that [the CWE and Tools developers] are capable of providing by themselves, so that [the CWE and Tools developers] can focus on more important or interesting work
* [The MOSS developers and IT team] could provide service(s) in areas outside of the [the CWE and Tools developers]' expertise

By the above, I do not mean to imply that [the MOSS developers and IT team]'s entire focus should be providing value to [the CWE and Tools developers]... but that should be part of the [the MOSS developers and IT team]'s mission.

What I'm trying to say here is - if we acknowledge peoples' preferences and expertise, there really shouldn't be any reason we can't work together.

Questions:
* Does the above make sense? Does anyone disagree with my assessment? If so, what did I get wrong?
* Did my avoidance of terms like "OU" and "GoW" help characterize how the division between the two teams is a preference rather than a requirement?

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Marten wrote:

* Did my avoidance of terms like "OU" and "GoW" help characterize how the division between the two teams is a preference rather than a requirement?

You could call them the Red team and the Blue team, it would still be the same. You will always find divisions of some kind between groups, because groups are divisions of one kind or another by nature. Using a different name changes nothing.

The only way to truly remove divisions is to think of everyone as being part of one large group rather than separate groups. But its not practical.

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-Stu

Marten wrote:

From my perspective, JW and [the MOSS developers and IT team] aren't so much ignoring problems as they are not treating them with the urgency desired. To me, ignoring a problem means either not acknowledging that it exists or pretending that it will go away on its own. (If I've missed a situation where a problem was pointed out and no-one among [the MOSS developers and IT team] responded at all, I'll reconsider my view.)

See I think of ignoring as not showing some progress toward a goal, which I think does a good job outlining one of my issues with OU's handling of OS. It's not so much that OU has outright not acknowledge an issue (though I seem to remember they did... I don't know), or that they haven't given an issue what I view as proper urgency, it's that I have seen no signs that they are actually doing any work on the issues beyond posts just saying "we are." I'd like to see plans, discussions between people who will help make those plans work. In short, I'd like to see OpenURU do things in the "open." Right now it feels like I'm waiting for the OU people to talk privately amongst themselves before they come out and talk to the rest of the world. To me, that feels patronizing. Like the adults all go into another room and then come out to tell the children what flavor cake's going to be served at the party. It's not the sort of situation the skilled people at the GoW should be subjected to.
Your previous post mentioned that people choose to work with those who respect them, but I haven't seen disrespect from the GoW except for the times when people at the GoW were aggravated or insulted (or disrespected) by members of the OU group. As an example, Platt pre-empted the GoW's forking announcement by 30 minutes in what was viewed by pretty much everyone involved as a childish stunt. I mean who *wouldn't* be honestly and justifiably angry at that? This example obviously isn't why the GoW and OU are apart (and for the record, I don't think anyone at the GoW really cares what happened then anymore) but I don't think people should see this as a one-way "the GoW should be more respectful."

Quote:

There are two very general areas in which [the MOSS developers and IT team] can do this in ways beneficial to [the CWE and Tools developers]:
* [The MOSS developers and IT team] could provide service(s) that [the CWE and Tools developers] are capable of providing by themselves, so that [the CWE and Tools developers] can focus on more important or interesting work
* [The MOSS developers and IT team] could provide service(s) in areas outside of the [the CWE and Tools developers]' expertise

I don't know enough about the actual issues between the two groups to get into the details (others at the GoW would probably be more help here) but my general understanding of some of the issues is that the place where OU puts its code is disorganized and they are using a system that makes it hard for people to get the code and submit changes to it. Similarly, GoW members have code tools they use because they are easier to use or more fully featured than the ones OU used.

So I think GoW+OU could be beneficial more in terms of OU benefiting from the GoW's knowledge. The issue with this is that there's really little I think OU can offer the GoW at this time. I'm not aware of any services the GoW is incapable of providing themselves nor of any area of expertise the OU is superior in. My hope is that, if OU implements at least some of the changes the GoW suggests, the two groups would be "on the same wavelength" so to speak and the OU team could benefit the GoW in the longer term.

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-Whilyam

Excellent response Whilyam! This helps me to understand the situation better from your perspective.

Whilyam wrote:

See I think of ignoring as not showing some progress toward a goal, which I think does a good job outlining one of my issues with OU's handling of OS. It's not so much that OU has outright not acknowledge an issue (though I seem to remember they did... I don't know), or that they haven't given an issue what I view as proper urgency, it's that I have seen no signs that they are actually doing any work on the issues beyond posts just saying "we are." I'd like to see plans, discussions between people who will help make those plans work. In short, I'd like to see OpenURU do things in the "open."

Right now it feels like I'm waiting for the OU people to talk privately amongst themselves...

I am with you 100% on the issue of transparency. The way in which the open source announcement was conducted (albeit with Cyan's involvement and approval) demonstrates that OU can and will keep things private when they feel it suits them. That results in a trust issue; when you know someone has hidden something from you before, you instinctively wonder what is being hidden now. When there's no movement on the issues, one wonders if there's a back-room discussion going on out of sight. If someone says "We are" when perhaps they should've said "That's a good idea," that fosters suspicion and irritation, too.

Having said that, I'm not certain that OU has a lot of non-public discussion. The impression I've gotten is that discussion is pretty true to the "open" in the name OpenUru... and that where discussion has occurred, it has sometimes dragged on longer than some Writers had patience with it, and where no discussion is occurring, that is because the interested members of OU have priorities completely outside of Myst and Uru that are dominating their lives and preventing them from participating. Both of these problems lead to the consequence of "not showing progress toward a goal."

That's only my not-very-involved interpretation, though. I am not above directly asking JW, "How much private discussion is going on (that you are aware of), and what can you do to bring more of it into the public eye?". So there. JW, consider that to have been asked.

Whilyam wrote:

Your previous post mentioned that people choose to work with those who respect them, but I haven't seen disrespect from the GoW except for the times when people at the GoW were aggravated or insulted (or disrespected) by members of the OU group. As an example, Platt pre-empted the GoW's forking announcement by 30 minutes in what was viewed by pretty much everyone involved as a childish stunt. I mean who *wouldn't* be honestly and justifiably angry at that? This example obviously isn't why the GoW and OU are apart (and for the record, I don't think anyone at the GoW really cares what happened then anymore) but I don't think people should see this as a one-way "the GoW should be more respectful."

In that post, I was examining the relationship between Cyan and the GoW rather than OU and GoW for that particular point. I believe Cyan perceives the GoW's respect for them differently than the GoW intends.

You are absolutely correct about JW's post, and that touches on perspectives as well. I think I know why he made the post, and he made it with good intentions... he didn't mean to show disrespect, and yet it was disrespectful! JW was very focused on "How will the community react to the GoW's announcement? What can I do to prevent fire and brimstone from raining on them from the skies? How can I protect the GoW from unfair accusations about how forking is bad?" Problem is, he was so wrapped up in that thought, he didn't continue on to "How will the GoW feel if I preempt them? If I jump out to defend them before there's any real problem, won't that demonstrate a lack of faith and trust in them?" I believe I've also previously mentioned that that people don't like unsolicited help. And so JW's message, that was intended to help the Writers, instead became a flashing neon sign of disrespect toward them.

I won't block-quote the rest because everything else you said makes sense to me.

I think over time (as you said, "the longer term") we will find there are areas where OU* (see note) can do things that the Writers either are not as able, or aren't as interested in doing. One example is peer code review, which I know is a contentious issue - yet is something that is done in many open source projects. I know that if I were in Cyan's shoes, I would ask the community to do this for code that might be rolled into MOULa so that I didn't have to expend my own manpower on it and could focus on activities that feed the company's bottom line.

* Here I do not mean only the people who are part of OU today, but anyone in the community that can be encouraged to participate and bring their skills to the table.

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Our respect for Cyan varies directly with how much they get done, and in how timely a manner. We realize that they don't have many resources, but since they have people offering to help them for free, the only excuse is whatever reason they have for not working more closely with us. Since they've never been clear on that point, there is an impression that Cyan, as a company, is acting like a teenager failing high-school - spiraling the drain, and ignoring everyone's offers to help them. Hopefully that gives you an idea of why we're dismissive of them at times.

That being said, if Cyan has a change of heart about accepting our help, we'd still jump at the opportunity in a heartbeat.

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For new comers, for less knowing members and for reasons of no confusion, it would be nice if
somebody could tell us... who the hell is "OU" ????

OpenUru.org

http://www.openuru.org

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Marten wrote:

I am not above directly asking JW, "How much private discussion is going on (that you are aware of), and what can you do to bring more of it into the public eye?".

a) 25 PMs. b) Finish my outline.

Yes, Whilyam's speculation is correct. We were having an internal discussion. I persistently ask team and other members to post instead when I am sent a PM with some question because I do want transparency. In this issue with the GoW, people have said they want action, not words. Our discussions, it has been said, take too long and get nothing done so we want to do our best when we start this one to determine how we can give the GoW as much of what they want as we possibly can. It is a unqiue situation and it is not our policy to have private discussions - at all.

Our failed discussions with Branan in April took too long. We offered an idea Branan didn't like and I was disappointed we could not continue to explore more things. We didn't think the discussion was done, but we learned our lesson. The internal discussion we have had was for the purpose of understanding what we have and what we can do with it. It rehashes what has already been said and known to learn or remind ourselves of what is involved in the issues and clear up anything we do not feel we understand fully. It would all just be more talk without decision that would test anyone's patience with us.

Adam made the effort to register recently and his posts have been helpful. We have posted in reponse, but not yet with with an outline of how we think we can meet what the GoW wants from us. I have roughed out an outline, but it is unfinished. With our understanding of what has already transpired, a commitment to improve, and an outline, it is my hope that we can proceed quickly though the kind of discussion that will not test patience so that we can take action more quickly. Part of that discussion will be to get a reality check from the GoW, specifically Adam and/or Branan.

In the process of what discussion there has been with Adam, he has already changed my thinking on some things toward his goals because of the constructive suggestions he made the time and effort to offer. There are some things Adam and Branan want that I have always agreed with, but I have not had the opportunity to implement them.

Finally, this is a fan (volunteer) effort. We have real lives that need attention. When it comes to that, real life is more important than Uru. rarified is on vacation and I respect that. Who wants to work on their vacation? But he has had the grace to communicate with us anyway. I was hoping his "official" return could wait until after his vacation. Foundry services, managed by rarified, figure significantly into the discussion. Also, I have a project due soon for CK where, if not completed, a significant investment will stand still with many people and revenues waiting for me to complete it (it's not MQO so don't ask). If I don't, that's very bad news for everyone, including the future of my family. So while everyone here might also be waiting for the team at OpenUru.org, there are livelihoods and other more important things at stake. Everyone has these kinds of choices from time to time. I hope all of you will understand these priorities. It would have been better to put the time I put into this post into my family or the CK project instead, but Marten asked a question and I felt the post was necessary.

P.S. Just to give you an idea of the kinds of things that can keep me away from OpenUru.org, my youngest son dropped and shattered a large glass in the kitchen while I writing this post. From the sound, you could tell that the impact happened in a way such that only slivers remained. I heard it from my office and quickly went to prevent anyone from injuring themselves before I had a chance to clean it up, and to cheer up my son, which I did. Another day in the life.

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Last edited by JWPlatt on Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total