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 Post subject: Vista - Some tips
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:24 pm 
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Location: Plymouth, England
If your like me and have had Vista on pre-order ever since you saw the lag improvements it made to Until Uru (and well its just so pretty.) And have now received it in all of its Home Premimum wonder (or Ultimate wonder) There are somethings I thought I would share to help you out.

1)Do not install Gametap/MO:UL (standalone) in your "C:\Program Files\" basically Vista in an effort to improve security have stopped applications from writing data in that folder. You'll find most games won't work from that folder and if they do any changes they make Windows Vista WILL UNDO. Its a pain but in the MO:UL standalone client just get rid of the "\Program Files" from the install path.*note* Gametap have been working on a Vista compatible client so this point may be mute.

2) Get 2gb of Ram, Vista will "run" on 512mb's of Ram much like Windows XP would "run" on 48mb of ram. Vista appears to have a 1.2Gb memory need (on the two systems I've tested it on.) SO 1GB will run vista but there will be slow downs. Strangely enough MO:UL and most applications don't alter this memory usage as much as they do on XP. (when I tested MO:UL on Vista RC1 a while back my memory usage went from 1.2gb to 1.3gb, in XP the difference can be 1gb.)

3)x64 DRIVER ISSUES (and some x86 problems) - Creative are useless, I've had a nodding interest in the company for a few months and browsing their forums you can see what being kept in the dark is like, as well as alot of bad management. Pretty much everything will have a vista driver however if you don't have one there is a way to use your old XP Pro x64 drivers. Windows Vista x64 has a way to protect the kernal from awful drivers you can install them but Vista will not run them. SO if you find yourself in a jam like me install your old x64 driver then everytime you turn the PC on hit F8 on the list will be "Normal with Driver protection Disabled". This is annoying but be annoyed at the companies like creative and not microsoft. Microsoft are the good guys with this one, x86 (or 32bit computing) doesn't have the lock outs however I have come accross the same sort of issue and this was a work around.

Hope it helps I'm off to enjoy MO:UL

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Location: Aachen, Germany
About Creative and sound cards under Windows Vista:

http://openal.org/openal_vista.html

MS has removed all hardware acceleration support for Direct 3d Sound from Vista. Blame MS for the problems! Thank Atrus that URU is using OpenAL.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:03 pm 
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Thanks for this thread, I've been building a brand new PC that will be using Windows Vista next week and plan to use the advice here to get Uru running ASAP!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:56 pm 
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sigh after posting that I managed to install MO:UL into my program files directory then broke the unistaller. Does anyone have the UruLauncher file they could send me so I can download the files manually?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:06 pm 
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Stevecrox wrote:
sigh after posting that I managed to install MO:UL into my program files directory then broke the unistaller. Does anyone have the UruLauncher file they could send me so I can download the files manually?


http://www.mystcommunity.com/storage/Ur ... Online.zip

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:02 pm 
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thanks a bunch

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:57 am 
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Thanks for the Vista tips. Keep 'em coming!!

And the point is moot, not mute. Just for the record.



Tim :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:14 am 
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*shudder* Upgrade to Vista?

Right.

A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection

All the "security" (read: destabilizations) in Vista aren't worth the upgrade.

I'm going to be holding out as absolutely long as possible onto my XP.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:47 am 
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I'm not jumping on the Vista wagon yet either. I like to wait until the product has been out a while to see how it's working or not working. Microsoft's Operating systems have had some successes and some flops.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:01 am 
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Frankly if I had a choice I'd continue using XP but considering this is a brand new computer I'm putting together with nothing on it.. it just doesn't make sense to put XP on it with a new OS coming out next week. I'd rather start fresh with a clean slate on Vista than put XP on it and then have to worry about it screwing up the upgrade in 6 months.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:12 am 
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Perhaps. I just built a new system and put XP on it. I realize Vista will be coming out and I even have a free copy coming. I'm just not sure I'm going to end up installing it. If I do, it won't be for at the least 6 months.

You know, I'd be a little leery of using a new op on a new system until I knew all my hardware was working first with a tested and true op system. But, that's just me.

I hope you have absolutely no problems and your new computer runs like a dream. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Vista - Some tips
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:19 am 
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Stevecrox wrote:
1)Do not install Gametap/MO:UL (standalone) in your "C:\Program Files" basically Vista in an effort to improve security have stopped applications from writing data in that folder.


I'd like to expand on this a little bit. In Windows, applications are never supposed to write data to the "Program Files" directory. I believe it was a guideline for the "Windows 2000 logo program" that apps need to store data in other places (the user's profile or the "all users" profile for data that is not user-specific).

On Windows 2000 and XP, standard users (and the programs they run) are not allowed to write any files under Program Files. The reason it's never appeared to be a problem until now (Vista), was that the majority of users (except for corporations that locked down their computers) ran not as standard users but as administrators all the time.

It's a vicious cycle--people run as administrator because their apps don't work right otherwise; application developers don't write their apps properly because everyone runs as admin (including the developers themselves in many cases). It's an unfortunate byproduct of the popularity of Windows 9x, where there was no security at all and everyone was always an administrator.

Vista changes things. Even if your Windows user account is an adminstrator, it treats it as a standard user, until you do something that requires administrator privileges. At that time it prompts you to confirm the action (so it knows *you* want to do it, versus some email attachment that you just clicked).

That puts games in an interesting place, since they frequently need to update themselves--not just data, but their executable files.

Stevecrox wrote:
You'll find most games won't work from that folder and if they do any changes they make Windows Vista WILL UNDO.


What's happening is called virtualization. If the game tries to create a new file underneath Program Files, Vista will take it and put it in a special place (one that the user has permission to write to), but makes the program think that the write succeeded in its original location. Any subsequent attempts to read the file will actually read the "virtualized" file. This works well for simple apps that write out a few configuration files, but for something as massive as GameTap/Uru, I don't see it working too well at all. Plus, it won't work to update the already-existing program files.

Note that virtualization is just in Vista. If you are a standard user on XP, and the app tries to write a file in Program Files, it will simply fail.


Personally, I have been running as a standard user on my XP machine since I got it 4 years ago. Here are the steps I followed when I installed GameTap:
1. I start off logged into my main account which is a standard user
2. Launch the GameTap installer from an Administrator account, by right-clicking on it and choosing "Run As"
3. Install GameTap to C:\GameTap
4. After it is installed, run GameTap itself as an Administrator by using Run As on the GameTap shortcut
5. From there, download and install Uru. (The physics engine, possibly among other things, requires Administrator access to install.)
6. After Uru is installed, quit Gametap
7. At this time, GameTap and Uru are installed, but only administrators can modify those files. Since GameTap & Uru update themselves, I need to give my standard user permission to modify those files, in the next steps:
8. Open an Administrator Command Prompt by using Run As on the Start Menu > Accessories > Command Prompt shortcut
9. Type "cd c:\GameTap"
10. Type "cacls . /T /E /G BUILTIN\Users:F" -- this gives all standard users on my machine full access to modify every file under C:\GameTap.

If you have XP Professional, or Windows 2000, you can replace steps 8-10 with the following:
8. Log into Windows as an administrator
9. Right-click on the GameTap folder, choose Properties, and go to the Security tab
10. If "Users" is listed in the "Group" list on top, select it.
11. If not, click "Add...", type Users in the box that appears, click OK. This will add it to the Group list.
12. Click the "Allow" check box next to "Full Control" and click OK.

I have XP Home, which doesn't have the Security tab, so my only option is the cacls command.


Now, when I use GameTap/Uru on a daily basis, I do it from my standard user account and everything works fine.

But this isn't a good solution for the masses, especially with Vista on the way and everyone being a standard user. Hence, the importance for all software developers to analyze their apps' behavior under standard user accounts, and make the changes necessary to make it a smooth user experience.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:54 am 
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I'm wondering if anybody out there has figured out any sort of crazy workaround that can get Gametap functional on Vista yet? I'm getting Vista on Tuesday and I'd like to get Gametap running on it if at all possible.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:21 pm 
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Location: LA (Lower Alabama)
A word of advice to those considering a Vista upgrade:

The first Service Pack has been slated for December so most of you should probably wait till then.

The vast majority of us early adopters (not the folks who "tried out" one of the RCs) are considerably more tech-oriented than most end users and are more equipped to accommodate the occasional glitch.

A good rule of thumb is if you usually have to get someone else's help to solve hardware driver issues or software installtion problems then you really should not make the jump yet.

[spoiler]A great alternative though is dual-booting XP and Vista and there are many step-by-step guides out there to help you set it up. Start off with a good sized hard drive though - you will need it.

I know, this isn't a spoiler - I just wanted to use the tag![/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:01 pm 
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Well, I caved. I made an 11th hour decision and my new PC will be a dual-boot XP (32-bit) and Vista (64-bit) machine.

The goal with it being that I'll be able to "phase in" Vista over time as bugs are smashed, drivers are tweaked, and applications (*cough*Gametap*cough*) become more compatible, then when Vista's happy and everything's running OK, I'll kill the XP partition.


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