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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:42 pm 
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…I swear I posted on 12/22 about 12:06 PM… veralun says the logs don’t show it and that it was not deleted or moved. I’ll try again…

ChloeRhodes, your accurate in you your reply regarding the posts. While they may be clarifications and statements of intent they are not the legal permission grants one needs to use Cyan IP. What RAWA, Chogon and others say on the forum is not legally binding on Cyan. Only the FCAL is. So, technically any use without a FCAL is infringement. We know that use of Cyan IP within the scope of the FCAL and statements by RAWA and others is likely going to fall under some future FCAL like agreement. So, for most of us it is not an issue. But there is no blanket grant of permission.

ChloeRhodes wrote:
Nalates wrote:
The whole point of the FCAL was to grant permission and make sure the user agreed to Cyan’s limits of use. That was a granting of limited and conditional permission. One must conform to Cyan requirements (FCAL) not to conflict with their story, stick to the Plasma engine/library, etc. My point was that if the fan created all their own meshes and textures, they could do whatever they wanted.



No, They still have to confine with the guidelines set forth by RAWA. No age can (Though they are) be distributed without a FCAL. Until Cyan figures out how to give FCAL's out quicker (Which is what the whole point of cooperative effort between GoMA and Cyan was supposed to do) We're stuck FCAL's coming at the slow pace set by CyanLegal.

This is where I think you are missing the point of my statement. It is the scope of what Cyan can control that you have wrong.

I am saying that any age writer that creates ALL their own content does not need a FCAL. The FCAL was for controlling the issue of story conflict. That ‘conflict’ implies some use of Cyan content. An age that links from the Nexus uses Cyan content. An age that mentions Yeesha uses Cyan content. In the MORE era it was assumed that all fan ages would coincide with and relate to Cyan ages. That era is past. All of the reasons for and purposes of the FCAL are up in the air.

The library used with PyPRP is, I think, a 3rd party library that mimics Plasma but I doubt it has Cyan IP in it. (Someone will correct that if it does) The point being if an age is built without ANY Cyan content and run in an Alcugs server there is no Cyan content. Thus the age can be delivered without need of Cyan’s permission.

Where the issue returns is when Cyan ages are run in the same server. In the MORE era the FCAL was the control on what could be placed on a Cyan/Uru or fan game server. As you point out, regardless of originality of content. But, now that the server and Plasma engine/library are to become open source there are additional possibilities and we expect fewer restrictions.

An age writer that uses ALL their original content can do whatever they want. Many of us expect the server and client software to be open source and have few restrictions. We expect the Plasma engine to likely be similarly restriction free. It is only the Cyan created ages and story that we expect to be restricted. How an age connects or is associated with Cyan content will likely place restrictions on the age writer. But, if the age writer wants to create a new age, all original content, run it on alcugs or an open source MOUL era server software, omit any use of Cyan ages or other content (names, characters, etc) on the server and is careful how they promote it… then they will likely have no restrictions.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:13 am 
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Nalates wrote:
I am saying that any age writer that creates ALL their own content does not need a FCAL. The FCAL was for controlling the issue of story conflict. That ‘conflict’ implies some use of Cyan content.


And this is where you are wrong. The FCAL existed before the era of MORE. Before MORE all ages still needed a lisence or they could not be distributed via the ULM. Without a license from Cyan, distribution of Ages, even with absolutely no Cyan content, via story or physical IP, was not allowed. Period. We were not supposed to do it, but we still did (and do). Cyan remained silent on the subject, but their silence did not equate approval. The reason being is that we were still using their intellectual property. Even if it was our own creation. The files that are created by PyPRP contain are the intellectual property of Cyan, because they use their code (their IP) hence why distribution was not allowed. As for PyPRP itself, it's existence is because of hacking/reverse engineering of the Plasma engine. It is written in Python for blender, but it contains Cyan IP in that it contains the information necessary to create the PRPs. probably a good 80 percent of the plasma classes used in PRPs are coded with their original names, and information, intact within PyPRP. This is so that it can properly create the necessary files for an age. The source code for the 3dsmax plugin is probably very similar to PyPRP except that it uses a full GUI interface and is coded in another language for a different 3d modeling software program. but it still needs all the prerequisite classes that ours uses to make it work. Which encompasses the plasma engine classes.

PyPRP itself uses the Plasma Engine information, to create PRPs, the information in those PRPs, is the intellectual property of Cyan. Hence why distribution of an age, without a FCAL, regardless if it has Cyan story IP is "wrong" in CyanLegal's eyes.

AsGreyDragon once put it to the fan community, long before age creation was as popular as it is now, "Do not take our silence for approval". We were told, even then, that ANY fan created content, must be approved through Cyan Legal. Regardless of it having Cyan Content or not. Especially if it was going on an alcugs shard.

Quote:
Dear Fan Community,

Over the last few years many of you have worked on modifying and manipulating Uru and Uru related products. By doing so you have raised many issues that Cyan now needs to look into. Whether the issue is fan created content to alcugs or your own personal endeavor these are not items we can decide on quickly.

The assumption made by many in the fan community is if Cyan doesn't say anything then they must be okay with it. Don't mistake our silence for approval. These issues need to be discussed in detail on our end to determine where they fall in the big picture.

We have never given anyone permission to hack our engine, make servers with unauthorized data; use our global data, etc.

Any fan created work will be addressed on a personal basis by our legal department. Please contact [email protected].

We have been continually amazed with the persistence you have shown and hope in the future we can work with you. We truly hope this period of planning will be sorted out soon. Unfortunately, the timeline for this is not entirely in Cyan’s control and we will try to update you whenever possible.

At this time I would refrain from releasing or modifying any data until stated from Cyan Worlds Inc. that it is all right to do so.

Thanks for your patience,

Ryan and the team at Cyan


Really can't get any clearer than that. It's something that still holds to this day. Without approval from Cyan Legal, on is not to distribute an age, regardless of content, regardless of where it is. Period. What Cyan did with MORE was map out just what Cyan content could go into an age (in regards to both story, and assets). And created the FCAL requirement that an age could only be released if one had one. The FCAL is a license between Cyan and the age creator, and is under an NDA.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:09 am 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
The files that are created by PyPRP contain are the intellectual property of Cyan, because they use their code (their IP) hence why distribution was not allowed.

I’m not sure where you got the idea the PRP file format is exclusive to Cyan. Or that the file format is covered by their IP rights. Or that PyPRP contains Cyan IP or code. Ask the author. Unless you think he has access to the Cyan Plasma code, that just isn’t possible.

A file format falls into the area of patent law to gain protection. Several companies have tried unsuccessfully to patent logical file formats. They are essentially trying to patent the order and structure of data. Unless there is something new and unique in how that is done, it is not patentable. So far, all the technology used in a PRP file is prior to Cyan’s use. It simply cannot be patented. Patenting file structure is like trying to patent the idea of sentences and paragraphs.

Individual PRP files can be copyrighted. But anything an age writer creates is different and open to a new copyright. The age writer’s information in the file is not Cyan’s.

Cyan’s silence is not the thing that makes something their IP, permission and whatever or not. The reverse engineered software and files created from a reverse engineered piece of software fall into a violation or not violation depending on how one comes by the file formatting information. Large companies have used the Chinese wall for decades to circumvent this problem. The software world is full of 3rd party programs that duplicate what a proprietary piece of software does. I don’t see where PyPRP is any different.

Also, notice that Cyan specifically copyrighted and protected a large number of names when filing their copyrights. I don’t see use of dniCityWall being covered by the copyrighting of D’ni. Every word in a Cyan PRP file is not automatically covered by a copyright. In fact I can use Uru as it is a word in a dictionary. It is generally not possible to copyright or trademark a word found in a dictionary.

One can protect and claim IP rights to things used in connection to a product, MOUL for instance. If I use Uru, Myst, Yessha and others to relate an age or game I make to profit from Cyan’s name recognition they can claim unfair used and damages, even with Uru being in a dictionary. In which case it is not my simple use of the word Uru it is how I am using it that creates a problem.

PyPRP is not Cyan property nor are PRP files created by others. If one does not use Cyan IP, they can create anything they want.

Everything you point out is in relation to old stuff and associating an age to only Cyan/Uru. You seem to repeatedly miss the point that as Plasma goes open source people will be able to use it to build anything they want. You believe PyPRP is somehow a property of Cyan, uses Cyan code and other IP and so restricts age builders now. It isn’t, it doesn’t and they aren’t.

My basic statement is one can only use Cyan IP with their permission. One that does not use their content can do anything they want.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:34 am 
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Happy Hold-um-back-Days Nalates and ChloeRhodes..it has been interesting reading to say the least...A bit of egg nog might be in order here although I'm up for more banter...Seriously...Happy Holidays to all reading this post!!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:35 am 
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As far as I understand, PyPRP uses Python scripts to generate the PRP files. The problem that I know of is that you are still using the Plasma engine to read that code. As long as you do that, you are using Cyan's assets. That was how I remember it described to me by either Greydragon or Chogon (can't remember which).

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:41 am 
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Correct. And use of ANY content, or use of the format and engine of URU for ANY Purpose is under the control of Cyan. They created it, they own it. It is a principle clear and accepted by hundreds of game communities across the entire span of gaming in every genre, a game and all its content, and all its story is owned by the creator. Most allow and indeed encourage modding and some even offer Contruction sets that make the game live on and on to the great enjoyment of everyone. It is the nicest and easiest and most repsectful approach here to see and admit and accept that Cyan has an hourable right to control the use of the game, story, assets, engine and format. There are literally hundreds of other engines out there that can be used for free or for a fee, just waiting for people to make things happen with. Here, we live with and support and respect Cyan and their creations, for it is what brought us together, and gives us the joy of our shairng.

To keep trying to take control of something when there is so much that can be done through respect and sharing within the rules is ....just unneccessary...as is this long long diatribe for percieved freedom.
Quote:
Do not take our silence for approval". We were told, even then, that ANY fan created content, must be approved through Cyan Legal. Regardless of it having Cyan Content or not. Especially if it was going on an alcugs shard.

There are always people who have the skills to try to take and use the contents of game resources that are clearly made and created and sold by a company. Such theft is shunned and rightfully so by every legitimate and honourable game community out there. Hundreds of mods and huge expansions, quests, add ons, and take offs of great games happen every year to everyones delight, all done with respect for and support for the source, and by asking.

I am sure there will be ways to work with Cyan when the cavern is re opened. I do think to keep pushing to have theft legitimized and suported by the community is a sure way to get Cyan to say. to heck with it, we just dont need the aggrivation of this constant attacking. Please just wait and see how it unfolds and stop trying to steal what may indeed be freely and happily given. Be patient and be kind and respectful. There is no reason to go on pushing. Lets be at peace and enjoy the wonderful chance we may have to see the Cavern again and also the possiblity to maybe ...just maybe, still not sure, but possibly add to the world of URU through player created content. Lets keep it simple and if you want to make digitla assetts and worlds, go make them with the hundreds of other engines and resources and dont ruin what most of us love and look forward to and hope for and trust in Cyan to share with us when the time is right.

Peace and Shorah and Merry Christmas.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:24 am 
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It seems several are stuck in the idea that the only way to create an age is to use Cyan content or software. There also seems to be the idea that PyPRP contains Cyan created code. Neither are true. As far as I know PyPRP is an original creation.

That PyPRP uses Python scripts does not create a tie to Cyan property. Python is used in all sorts of applications and is simply another computer language.

That PyPRP uses the Plasma engine to read files is something I’ve never heard. After all where does one get a Plasma engine to use or build into their software?

Also, these comments and responses seem locked into the idea that the creation side and the player sides are locked together in some uniform rights issue. They aren’t. The user has to agree to the EULA to run the game. So, we have user issues and rights and we have content and age writers’ rights and issues which are separate things. So, there is an EULA and a FCAL for those different rights.

Where in the EULA does it say a user cannot use the game to read other files or play additional ages? May be there is a restriction but I don’t remember it. The point is the user has a finite set of limitations and responsibilities. Several of the things being discussed regarding what age writers can do goes outside the EULA. So, again, if the age writer does not use Cyan IP they are free to do whatever they want.

The one running the client side is still bound by the EULA. I just don't remember a limitation in the EULA that says I can’t put additional files in my CC folders.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:31 am 
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Another side note, is EULAs are generally not enforcable by law.

Sorry for the short post, but, its late, but felt that really did need addressing.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:34 am 
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Nalates wrote:
It seems several are stuck in the idea that the only way to create an age is to use Cyan content or software. There also seems to be the idea that PyPRP contains Cyan created code. Neither are true. As far as I know PyPRP is an original creation.


And this is where you are incorrect. One cannot make content to be used for a game engine, without the code to create and or mimic the original file structure. This is gotten through use of a disassembler. PyPRP is coded with source taken from the disassembling of the Uru Client. As well as current (Possibly not sure on that) and former Cyan employees, whom answered some of our questions regarding the source we'd gotten from the disassembling of the Client.

Quote:
That PyPRP uses the Plasma engine to read files is something I’ve never heard. After all where does one get a Plasma engine to use or build into their software?


Said information about the Plasma engine is once again gotten from disassembling the Uru Client. If you wish for a break down on how this was all done you can find it here: What We Do

As someone who is a contributor to PyPRP, has disassembled the Client and hacked Uru for several years I can tell you, that most definately PyPRP is coded with Cyan's IP (we just rewrote the same code they did, just in a different language, for a different modeling program then they used) But all the information included in PyPRP is an interpretation of Cyan's code as gotten from the Client. The prps and age files they created are encrypted with the same encryption Cyan uses. The PRPs are filled with classes that the client reads and interprets. In order for this to happen correctly, the classes need to be coded correctly, in the same manner that the client is supposed to read them as. So the prps (created by PyPRP) have the same plasma classes as the engine (the engine containing a couple hundred more) and so PyPRP must have those classes in them as well, to create the PRPs correctly.

Understand now?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:31 am 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
Nalates wrote:
It seems several are stuck in the idea that the only way to create an age is to use Cyan content or software. There also seems to be the idea that PyPRP contains Cyan created code. Neither are true. As far as I know PyPRP is an original creation.


And this is where you are incorrect. One cannot make content to be used for a game engine, without the code to create and or mimic the original file structure. This is gotten through use of a disassembler. PyPRP is coded with source taken from the disassembling of the Uru Client. As well as current (Possibly not sure on that) and former Cyan employees, whom answered some of our questions regarding the source we'd gotten from the disassembling of the Client.

There is a way, it's called "Chinese Wall" coding. Essentially, you have one team disassemble the original and write down what the code does, then you have a second team take those notes and code from them. That the coding team never sees the original code means it's legal. There is also an exception to the DMCA allowing for reverse engineering explicitly to allow interoperability.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:57 am 
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AKA "clean room design," such as when AMD developed their own version of Intel's i386 microprocessor during a licensing spat with Intel.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:13 am 
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Ah, I forgot about the disassembly too.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:11 am 
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The discussion I'm seeing here is similar enough to the discussion which prompted me to write a blog post that explained what exactly the "Uru hackers" do.

It might not be directly relevant, but it does provide a good summary: What We Do...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:28 am 
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Quote:
The discussion I'm seeing here is similar enough to the discussion which prompted me to write a blog post that explained what exactly the "Uru hackers" do.

It might not be directly relevant, but it does provide a good summary: What We Do...


LOL Jeez Paradox I only posted a link to your blog just a few posts up. I gave you one plug did you really have to give yourself a self-promoting plug :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:31 am 
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This is what happens when I'm kidnapped by extended family to perform their tech support, and only read the last 3 posts when I get home. You had the misfortune of being post number 4. :lol:


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