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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:03 pm 
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Quote:
"I know nnnnnnoooothiiiiiing! But using our stuff is not permitted."
It's more subtle than that.

"I know nnnnnnoooothiiiiiing! But giving the impression you have explicit permission to use our stuff is not permitted."

In short, not Sanctioned by Cyan (tm). :)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:44 am 
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Rusty_Russell's interpretation matches the way I understand the situation to be. It probably doesn't need any elaboration, but why not? I may as well. 8)

The situation is really simple. Maybe the puzzle-solving nature of Myst fans explains why everyone expects it to be more complicated?

In a nutshell, if someone, ANYONE, tells you that they have Cyan's permission, authorization, acknowledgment, wink-wink-nudge-nudge-know-what-I-mean, or any other sort of positive reinforcement that could imply even the slightest tacit approval to distribute Cyan content, modify Cyan content, or provide a means to modify and/or distribute Cyan content... then that person is not telling you the truth because Cyan has not granted any such approval.

I think that regardless of how anyone feels about the applicability of the End User License Agreements associated with Cyan's products, we ought to be able to agree that making false claims is Not A Nice Thing. I appreciate that Cyan is keeping us informed so that we can tell when someone is spreading misleading statements.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:35 am 
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The situation is made slightly more complicated by the fact that I have, sitting in my inbox, an email from Tony Fryman which essentially states that under certain guidelines, I may develop and release Fan-Created Code (the particular email refers to PRPExplorer, but seems phrased in such a way that it does not refer to one project so long as all projects follow the guidelines).

The most important guidelines state that
1. Thou shalt not claim Cyan had any involvement in your project (no help, no authorisation, no approval: no involvement).
2. Thou shalt develop projects solely for personal, non-commercial use; and thou shalt never use it with any Cyan-run or Cyan-affliated or commercial shards unless you get explicit permission from Cyan.

Staying within those guidelines is relatively easy, and as far as I an tell even Drizzle stands within those bounds (Dustin has never claimed to have Cyan approval or permission, those claims were made by others who were probably not familiar with the small technicalities).

In that way, I believe Rusty_Russell's interpretation to be correct, and it appears to be backed up by Chogon's second post in this thread. A slight criticism, the original post was needlessly vague, the second post summed up everything quite nicely and eliminated much of the confusion.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:46 am 
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Paradox, do you have the right, or even permission, to share a personal email between Cyan and yourself? If it was in fact not meant for public distribution, I think it is rather indecent and unethical to share personal PM's or e-mails in public. If, though, Tony did wish this information to be made known in public, I do apologize in advance for my concern.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:41 am 
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The email states that I may not post the exact terms and guidelines (which is common for all emails that Cyan sends out, including Fan Age Creation Licenses) so that someone cannot copy the agreement. What I posted above was paraphrased.

I emailed Cyan back in early 2006 after their major crackdown on hacking information. I, along with a number of other people who had written tools, received similar emails in response. Dustin received one at this time regarding UruAgeManager.

The discussion regarding the emails sent and received during that time frame was organised by Robert The Rebuilder, over on COBBS: Thread Link


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:42 am 
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I couldn't resist but add the following thought:

I wonder how much Streisand Effect occurs each time Chogon names a specific thing that Cyan hasn't explicitly authorized.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:51 am 
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Well, I do not think it is right that you post part of a PRIVATE, I repeat PRIVATE conversation in public that would only add to the problems of this very anxious and tormented community, not to mention Cyan's woes to try and make a living. Reading what I have recently I have no wonder that Cyan has been so silent over the years. The word is TRUST and I see very little of it demonstrated in here. You are dragging up the past from 2006 , that was before MystOnline was announced, we are hoping for new horizons and it would be wonderful if we worked together to build a new Cavern.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:26 am 
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That said, we (Murray and I) are not jumping on you personally, Paradox (and I speak for both of us), for we essentially agree with what you said. I think the point is more that we find that private conversations are too easily shared, and Cyan's rights too frivolously violated. The recent conversation at the GoW (where there is already talk of converting MQO content using Drizzle and I leave all possible results from THAT to the imagination) is living proof that not everybody thinks the same. We feel for Cyan, sometimes they must wonder whether to laugh or cry. It would be so much easier if everybody had the same respectful outlook on using Cyan's property, we would not be so nervous about it all. Quite frankly we are both selfish and all we want to see is MOUL, MORE or whatever back.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:59 am 
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What I posted is no different than a Fan Created Age License, except that it is for code rather than an Age. How exactly is this an issue?

I mention that there is a kind of understood agreement between myself and Cyan, that when I develop programs related to Plasma I do so under certain terms; and you're saying that this is making Cyan's situation worse?

You most certainly don't understand the point of view of many of the community's developers who have been working with Uru since 2004, and who have an intricate and complicated love-hate relationship with Cyan.

EDIT: I will try to get a blog post up in the next few days with my point of view, rather than just complaining that nobody understands it :P


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:29 am 
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Paradox wrote:
What I posted is no different than a Fan Created Age License, except that it is for code rather than an Age. How exactly is this an issue?

I mention that there is a kind of understood agreement between myself and Cyan, that when I develop programs related to Plasma I do so under certain terms; and you're saying that this is making Cyan's situation worse?

You most certainly don't understand the point of view of many of the community's developers who have been working with Uru since 2004, and who have an intricate and complicated love-hate relationship with Cyan.

EDIT: I will try to get a blog post up in the next few days with my point of view, rather than just complaining that nobody understands it :P


Exactly, well said!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:37 pm 
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J'ffrey wrote:
Paradox wrote:
You most certainly don't understand the point of view of many of the community's developers who have been working with Uru since 2004, and who have an intricate and complicated love-hate relationship with Cyan.



Exactly, well said!!!

I wonder if in your minds understanding means "full approval" ?

And can you understand people who do see it from a different point of view than yours ?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:58 pm 
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Heh, I can't be the only one that noticed that Sophia and Murray are calling *business* emails about licensing "personal", "private" and indecent to share :P

But yeah, I think I realised a little something about what Cyan really is, as far back as 1997. When it comes to how they treat their customers or how honest they are, they aren't even a particularly good company; just average, believe it or not. How I wish Robyn had taken over the company instead of Rand... but then again it is perhaps like shards or politics: those who would be best at running them, perhaps also tend to shy away from doing so.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:57 pm 
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De-lurks and expects to get shot-down

good to go back to the source bold emphasis from terrapin

Chogon wrote:
I know it is easy to try to read more or less into a statement than what was actually stated because there is a lot of grey area all around.

The reason for the statement is that from various communications Cyan has seen in the last month, a number of people think that Cyan Worlds has officially either sanctioned, given permission to, given the "OK" to or approved of certain shards, tools, etc.

The statement is simply that we have not given any such official permission or approval or sanctioning.


Cyan Worlds will in the near future reveal it's future plans and intensions. Hopefully, with a town hall kind of meeting, questions can be answered and a way forward charted.

I know that there has been a lot of confusion for the last year and a half. Not only in the community but also inside of Cyan Worlds. There are *so* many things we want to do from getting everyone back in the cavern to new fresh ideas. We have had to re-adjust our thinking but the dreams are still alive.


And Bodger, if you know where the ponies are would you please turn them lose. ;-)


Thanks,
Chogon



I like many people have followed Cyan's world journey for a very long time only recently have I been able to explore URU offline and alone.

I anticipate and relish one day joining the community online I can see the fascination with developing mod tools such as drizzle and have been amazed at the creativity that some folks have shownwhich has such a flavour of the place we all know and love e.g. http://forum.guildofwriters.com/viewtop ... &start=130

However my real life work in healthcare sales and marketing gives me some understanding of "Cyan’s intellectual property" and how some of the developments that are going on might damage this.

I’m no expert about computer gaming but as one of those folks whose mind drifts during the thousands of miles I drive every month into the worlds we have explored. Maybe a little patience is required,

I am accumulating a library of organic photo’s of textures barks tree’s etc that I would love to see incorporated into to D’ni I for one thinks that Cyan does want to work with all of us but messages change information changes promises made and one point sometime get delayed that’s life

Shorah

terrpain
[/b]

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:43 am 
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Um,,hey...(clearing throat)....I'm REALLY interested in seeing MORE....Without all the hooplah surrounding the release of the 'OPEN SOURCE'...Is there anything out there???


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:39 am 
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Gandhar wrote:
Um,,hey...(clearing throat)....I'm REALLY interested in seeing MORE....Without all the hooplah surrounding the release of the 'OPEN SOURCE'...Is there anything out there???

I'm not sure I understand your question. MO:RE or something like it is something Cyan/Rand has implied they/he would like to see but does not seem to be in the economic cards. Therefore they are going down the open source road. Word from Cyan is consistent they intend to maintain some type of source code branch and provide a server with the MOUL content files.

While there may still be some turns in the road to open source that seems to be where Cyan/Rand is going. The rogue shards are fan impatience.

It would seem open source is the only thing out there. Unless they win the lottery I would not expect that to change. Even new well projects funded are unlikely to change the projected fate of Uru. Projects may provide funds but use up time and talent. So... open source seems to be the next opening of the cavern.

What were you hoping for?

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