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Ainia · **Posted:** Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:01 am

Ehren wrote:

Lyrositor wrote:

Off-Topic 1: Logical sense is redundant. Is there such a thing as illogical sense?

Interesting question, but I don't like being redundant or anything, so my thoughts were that:

Yes, there can be such a thing as illogical sense. For example, to me, CAVCON feels like it makes illogical sense.

Like, I'm sure they have a reason/standards they thought of for not using decimals with some numbers, and not using the whole number for others, consistent with their own rules. In that way it must make sense. But I don't think those rules are the most logical that could have been made up.

Well that's how I feel anyway. I wish it made sense in a more logical way.

Another way to put it is there are other types of "sense" than logical/linear sense. There's intuitive sense and common sense (or "horse sense" as it once was called). I've known a number of folks with plenty of linear/logical sense who had little to none common sense.

Ok, back on topic...

dgelessus · **Posted:** Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:27 am

Lyrositor wrote:

dgelessus wrote:

CAVCON 2.4: 2 --> Monthly costs covered to less than 100%, but money in reserve. .4 --> 40% of the monthly costs are covered.

Actually, no; as far as I understand it, the .4 means that donations cover 40% of the monthly costs; if it's at 2, the costs are already covered with the reserve fund.

Yeah, I meant that...

Malfhok · **Posted:** Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:12 am

Mac_Fife wrote:

The folks at Cyan are actually pretty busy just now, but I've been campaigning for a monthly email reminder service that people can subscribe to, following Tai'lahr's suggestion of it a few posts back. I know it's something that can be set up without a huge amount of effort, and if it can help maintain a steady flow of donations, then it seems to me it'd be worthwhile.

This is even something that someone from the community could do, probably. I'm just passing through the forums at the moment during a very busy month, or I would look into setting this kind of thing up for everyone.

Mac_Fife · **Posted:** Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:03 pm

Yes, I could do it right now because I have all the necessary mailshot software (the same software Cyan has, in fact) on my server right now - I've been using it for years. But I won't: As has been mentioned before, the identities of donors is confidential I wouldn't ask anyone to volunteer to me that they are a donor. Besides, I can envisage that more people would be inclined to subscribe to a reminder service run by Cyan than one run by a fan or fan group, regardless of who that might be.

Anyway, I know Cyan are considering the idea, but it still needs to be run by Tony, I think.

Ainia wrote:

Ehren wrote:

Lyrositor wrote:

Off-Topic 1: Logical sense is redundant. Is there such a thing as illogical sense?

Interesting question, but I don't like being redundant or anything, so my thoughts were that:

Yes, there can be such a thing as illogical sense. For example, to me, CAVCON feels like it makes illogical sense.

Like, I'm sure they have a reason/standards they thought of for not using decimals with some numbers, and not using the whole number for others, consistent with their own rules. In that way it must make sense. But I don't think those rules are the most logical that could have been made up.

Well that's how I feel anyway. I wish it made sense in a more logical way.

Another way to put it is there are other types of "sense" than logical/linear sense. There's intuitive sense and common sense (or "horse sense" as it once was called). I've known a number of folks with plenty of linear/logical sense who had little to none common sense.

Ok, back on topic...

A simple, continuous scale works OK when what you're trying to represent is single piece of information, like "temperature". But the CAVCON is more complex than that, hence the gaps and jumps. Additionally, there are really two CAVCONs: The monthly CAVCON that we had from the beginning which gives you single, fixed "status" for the preceding month and the Donation Meter which is a rolling, weekly (usually) measure of how donations are doing in the current month, but both really work the same way.

The integer part and decimal fraction part are each representing different items of data: The integer part is five discrete values that each represent a "state" for the donation fund - 1=Empty, 2=Consuming reserves, 3=Stable, 4=Adding to reserves, 5=Big surplus (to give very brief descriptions). You just as easily call them A-E instead. The decimal fraction part is a linear, continuous scale and represents the proportion of the month's costs that are covered by the donations, starting at .0 each month and where 1.0 means fully meeting the expenses.

Where it all goes weird is in trying to arithmetically add the two parts together. 1.5 and 2.5 represent the same level of donation but with different states for the reserve. But the definition of state 3 means it can't really have a fractional part, so if the donations exceed the expenses at all (say 120%) then you have to declare CAVCON 4 and show the fractional part there (i.e. 3 + 1.2). I've no idea what would happen if we ever got to 200% of monthly expenses, but I don't think it would be CAVCON 5 (and it'd be interesting to see how RAWA would handle it

).

Charura · **Joined:** Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:14 pm **Posts:** 1773

My solution is: Stop in, meet new people and help and continue to be friends... Numbers don't mean anything if you don't stop by to actually help the new peeps or even nudge a few old ones...This posting on the forum is great, but...bottom line...we need to be in the Cavern/City/Game whatever you call it

zeke3651 · **Joined:** Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:46 am **Posts:** 411

Come on were at 4.7 a little more to 5.0 come on everybody come everybody (famous song from another game.)

Lordly · **Joined:** Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:10 am **Posts:** 46

zeke3651 wrote:

Come on were at 4.7 a little more to 5.0 come on everybody come everybody (famous song from another game.)

Correction...we WERE at 4.7...With the back-end server issue viewtopic.php?f=36&t=26704
I doubt that will continue..

Lyrositor · **Joined:** Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:14 pm **Posts:** 808

Also, it's not 4.7 -> 4.8 -> 4.9 -> 5... 4.9 only means donations exceed expenses by 90%, so the next logical step would probably be 4.10 (donations exceed by 100%), then 4.11 and so on (since it's not a real decimal number anyway). Remember that CAVCON is not a linear scale.

AlanD · **Posted:** Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:40 am

As I meant to say earlier - the use of a full stop in a term that is not a decimal number is confusing. Why not replace the separator with a dash. So instead of 2.1 it is 2-1. Or 2:1. or 2c1. The full stop makes people assume it is a decimal representation of a single number, when it is not

dgelessus · **Posted:** Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:27 pm

How about just a percentage? (such as 120% for 4.2)

Acorn1 · **Joined:** Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:46 pm **Posts:** 985

When are we going to see the end-July cavcon?

Charura · **Joined:** Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:14 pm **Posts:** 1773

I'm assuming the vacations are floating through Cyan this time of year since Chogon had his already...maybe RAWA is on leave?

RAWA · **Posted:** Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:40 pm

A whole bunch of responses all at once.

First, thanks so much to all who went above and beyond the call of duty to donate to MOULa! I'm told there were some very generous donations last month, and it greatly helped the state of the reserve fund.

Charura wrote:

maybe RAWA is on leave?

I'm here, but the accountant was not. :)

AlanD wrote:

the use of a full stop in a term that is not a decimal number is confusing. Why not replace the separator with a dash. So instead of 2.1 it is 2-1. Or 2:1. or 2c1.

I'm not opposed to that. However:

a) Any representation would require the same explanation of what the two parts mean that is in the first post of this thread; and once it's been explained, is there, fundamentally, a difference?

b) if someone isn't interested in the specifics of exactly what the parts of the number mean, they at least can easily understand that any larger number is always better than any smaller number.

c) I have complete faith that y'all can handle a bit of confusion and come out on top. We've thrown much harder things than this at you over the years. :)

Mac_Fife wrote:

Anyway, I know Cyan are considering the idea [of a CAVCON email reminder], but it still needs to be run by Tony, I think.

I'll run it by Tony again. Now that we have someone actively working on our website, the idea might get more traction than when someone would have had to be distracted from other duties?

Emor D'ni Lap · **Joined:** Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:15 am **Posts:** 587

RAWA wrote:

AlanD wrote:

the use of a full stop in a term that is not a decimal number is confusing. Why not replace the separator with a dash. So instead of 2.1 it is 2-1. Or 2:1. or 2c1.

I'm not opposed to that. However:
a) Any representation would require the same explanation of what the two parts mean that is in the first post of this thread; and once it's been explained, is there, fundamentally, a difference?

Is there a difference between
1. two separate concepts represented as two separate numbers, as opposed to
2. two separate concepts represented as one number (with a decimal point)
???

Yes, I think there is.

Acorn1 · **Joined:** Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:46 pm **Posts:** 985

RAWA wrote:

First, thanks so much to all who went above and beyond the call of duty to donate to MOULa! I'm told there were some very generous donations last month, and it greatly helped the state of the reserve fund.

4.9 for July is great news!

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