It is currently Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:22 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 165 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 2190
Location: Houston
Call it a Devil's Advocacy Rant.

I do I really really do understand the thoughts and concerns behind upgrading the "/ignore" feature. I've never had any issue of harassment directed at me as a boy or a girl Avie but I have a feeling that is more a matter of my play hours then anything else. :wink: I have seen countless "stream of conciseness" typists that find it absurdly pleasing to message spam over the chat channels. The ignore command really could be improved a bit I don't argue.

In my book (Harassment = Bad) even in somewhere as kid friendly as MOULa just so I am clear.

Simple solutions however are always stronger solutions, at least they always have been in my life. I suggested a while ago making "/ignore" act on the primary account instead of the disposable "sub-accounts" that are created and destroyed with each avatar. I would also happily sign my name to a petition that reactivates even a single Cyan employee checking the report log for "/harass" once a week for a half hour. (Yes even as a additional expense to cavern operating costs.)

I'll admit I haven't looked at Hokias's addition yet but I have been looking at the source code of Uru for some time now. I'm sure it does what he says but I question altering that ancient piece of software even with "minor" changes. Especially since Cyan doesn't ban players to my knowledge and new accounts are simply verified by e-mail.

I've been in other games and other worlds, but the one I love is Uru.

I would rather see time, money, and energy spent by Cyan doing the things that assure a stronger game. (Better security on the Vault, 100% rewrite on the KI, updated glue code on the Python, Updated version of Python, making the book share "yeesha hologram statue" rather then "book slammed in face", and the "to do" list goes on.....)

P.S.

Quote:
You have no idea what the kick function is about or how and when and who could use it. Don't you think we know not to put this function in a place where a griefer could use it against us?

rocketdog


A Kick function can only be a kick function, I can not imagine you or anyone else developing something with that name that doesn't behave in the common vernacular. The "Kick function" removes a player from a game level, most often this feature is paired with a ban of variable time length to prevent that person from simply returning.

Quote:
<snip>Don't you think we know not to put this function in a place where a griefer could use it against us?


Who is us?

Who do you trust?

Who decides who gets admin privileges and who doesn't?

I care very deeply about people that want such very powerful and abused commands added especially when they can only be used by "us".

_________________
Waymet


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:55 pm
Posts: 625
MustardJeep wrote:
Quote:
I suggested the /kick function from Hood or private ages.


rocketdog SERIOUSLY? :roll:

Do you have any idea how insanely abused that is EVERYWHERE it's implemented, and how quickly Griefers abuse that system? And if you have grifers in your private Ages seriously just burn the age and get a new one, problem solved.


Care to provide some examples of how /kick was implemented in those systems, and how it was abused? Constructive conversation is always preferable to unsubstantiated crap.

MustardJeep wrote:
Now on to a general reply/rant:
I've tried my best to ignore this thread because of the fact that soooo many people are taking it sooo seriously but I think I have to respond now.

Ignoring the source of the proposed "upgrade" to the ignore code I have to question some obvious holes in the logic of the cloak of invisibility. The "Ghost Avatar" is a existing problem in Uru; I saw one so to speak just last night meaning it's not a dead issue. How this applies to "/ignore" should be obvious to everyone. You can ignore someone, a group of your twenty best friends can ignore that someone, heek your favorite Group/Guild/Sewing Circle/IRC Buddy List/Russian Gulag can all gang up and ignore this person with the ultimate "/ignore" of invisibility and your still guaranteed to have at least one person present asking over open chat about person X's odd behavior. People are very used to one person not being visually present but footsteps being heard, voice chat being heard, cones and other kickables being kicked providing proof many in this thread have said they never want to see. :lol:

The logical counter of course is that the skills of the person upgrading "/ignore" would patch over all these little tell tale leftovers making a seamless excision of the offending player. So the Question I have to ask is now that they are "gone" how do you help the people still being bothered by them if they are having problems with the KI, don't say anything expressing their distress over the KI, and you can't see player X who is being the pain in the first place? It's the whole interlocking Rube Goldberg operation their invisible, your invisible, both of you are invisible if one "/ignore" can consign someone to a single player sandbox on a server your opening a can of worms............

Some things can never be excised (the state of the physics world must be kept in sync between all clients, for example). On the other half of your paragraph here: If someone isn't saying anything, it's really nobody's responsibility to step in and do anything for them. Yes, we should help people with griefers when they ask, but if they're not asking we shouldn't assume they want or need help. What you may view as griefing they may not see as a problem, or may even be normal interaction for those people.

MustardJeep wrote:
Just be honest a lot of the discussion has revolved around granting players Customer Service Mode from MO:UL.
I'm not sure where you got this idea.

MustardJeep wrote:
Now for two little things I am pretty sure none of you have considered.

1. Custom Builds : If you go for some overly complicated ignore/ban list the easy solution is to compile a client immune to the restrictions.
This is a possibility only for certain things. Everything Hoikas implemented happens on the ignorer's client, so it can't be circumvented. For a /kick, there may be a way to circumvent it client side. See further down about people that have that level of technical skill, though.

MustardJeep wrote:
2. GPL License : No matter what you do as a form of protection you have to publish the source code for it, because yes griefers will sue. After all the GPL was written by a grifer and the ultimate act of griefing the system would have to be legally taking you for everything your worth.
There are two halves to this. Both of them are wrong. Your first point here seems to imply that security through obscurity is a good thing. It is not. The details of a truly secure system can be revealed without any impact to actual security. The second... I don't even know what you mean by saying those sorts of things about the GPL. It's a very effective license for what it's designed for.

MustardJeep wrote:
Simple is better.

patients always wins out eventually.

and

You all need to get over the fear of community moderation one goofball promoted to reseng can do more good then all the people that want that power or are afraid of that power when they don't have it.
Generally agreed.

MustardJeep wrote:
Call it a Devil's Advocacy Rant.

I do I really really do understand the thoughts and concerns behind upgrading the "/ignore" feature. I've never had any issue of harassment directed at me as a boy or a girl Avie but I have a feeling that is more a matter of my play hours then anything else. :wink: I have seen countless "stream of conciseness" typists that find it absurdly pleasing to message spam over the chat channels. The ignore command really could be improved a bit I don't argue.

In my book (Harassment = Bad) even in somewhere as kid friendly as MOULa just so I am clear.

Simple solutions however are always stronger solutions, at least they always have been in my life. I suggested a while ago making "/ignore" act on the primary account instead of the disposable "sub-accounts" that are created and destroyed with each avatar. I would also happily sign my name to a petition that reactivates even a single Cyan employee checking the report log for "/harass" once a week for a half hour. (Yes even as a additional expense to cavern operating costs.)
Tying anything to account is pointless in a F2P game like Uru - it's painfully easy to make a new account. I would like to see more CSR support from Cyan, but I'm not sure how much good it would actually do with how easy it is to re-register.

MustardJeep wrote:
I'll admit I haven't looked at Hokias's addition yet but I have been looking at the source code of Uru for some time now. I'm sure it does what he says but I question altering that ancient piece of software even with "minor" changes. Especially since Cyan doesn't ban players to my knowledge and new accounts are simply verified by e-mail.
The uru code might be old, but it's not all that awful, in the grand scheme of things. It's quite easy to make modifications like this.

MustardJeep wrote:
I've been in other games and other worlds, but the one I love is Uru.
So say we all!

MustardJeep wrote:
I would rather see time, money, and energy spent by Cyan doing the things that assure a stronger game. (Better security on the Vault, 100% rewrite on the KI, updated glue code on the Python, Updated version of Python, making the book share "yeesha hologram statue" rather then "book slammed in face", and the "to do" list goes on.....)
These are the sorts of fixes that are going to come from the community. They're all great feature requests, and some have already been implemented, though not yet merged back to Cyan.

MustardJeep wrote:
P.S.

Quote:
You have no idea what the kick function is about or how and when and who could use it. Don't you think we know not to put this function in a place where a griefer could use it against us?

rocketdog


A Kick function can only be a kick function, I can not imagine you or anyone else developing something with that name that doesn't behave in the common vernacular. The "Kick function" removes a player from a game level, most often this feature is paired with a ban of variable time length to prevent that person from simply returning.
Well yeah, a kick is a kick. But not anybody will be able to kick just anybody else, at least using /kick. To be entirely honest, anybody with custom code could "kick" somebody from any age already if they wanted to. Adding /kick as an own-age moderation tool adds no new potential for griefing.

MustardJeep wrote:
Quote:
<snip>Don't you think we know not to put this function in a place where a griefer could use it against us?


Who is us?

Who do you trust?

Who decides who gets admin privileges and who doesn't?

I care very deeply about people that want such very powerful and abused commands added especially when they can only be used by "us".
Everybody gets priviliges to control their owned age instances. Seems pretty simple. And keep in mind that anyone that has the skills to modify these commands has the ability to add similar commands themselves... and see what I said above in regards to that.

Also, as a general point, you seem to be under the working assumption that the commands as presented are abusable. That may well be the case, but I'd like to see some sort of use case analysis that shows how before we all just jump on board with what you say about that.

_________________
MOULagain KI #: 66990

When I was your age, we rocket-jumped up hill both ways in boiling lava.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 2190
Location: Houston
Quote:
Care to provide some examples of how /kick was implemented in those systems, and how it was abused? Constructive conversation is always preferable to unsubstantiated crap.


Wow never thought to see a sentence like the bit I underlined out of you. :(

But since you asked most of the other games I play with "kick" are Valve games. (TF2, HL2, L4D, L4D2, GarryMod) also Bioshock2, Minecraft, and a couple others. Kick universally comes in two flavors (Admin/User) Admin kick is the wrath of god action that dumps you back in a lobby area because one person pressed a button. The User kick a simple majority vote between players on your team or all players in the level.

Admin Abuse : :lol: Since your asking me to explain that concept one person usually the server owner or a assistant with "minor admin" powers using the admin functions to behave badly. As a example a reason used would be "You got caught in the rain three times trying to bring fireflys over from kemo".

User Abuse : :cry: :) I am both sad and happy for you that you don't understand this. As you described it these functions belonging to the "Age" owner, see Admin abuse.

If there is a vote system enabled....well that is where most griefers I've see have a lot of fun in other games. Let me tell you a story of how that might happen in Uru.......

A bunch of "friends" are gathered in Teledhan to knock it out as a party. Little do they know one among them really isn't much of a friend. All of a sudden this "bad friend" starts crying out over the chat. You want me to do what? No stop! Leave me alone. Shutup. Why do you keep saying that? They even gasp flip the tiles in the prison cell all the while blaming their target over chat because they know one of the other players is about to come in to the cell area and it offers "proof". And so on and so forth preying on the urges of most people to remove the person that is causing a problem. The Vote starts and not really believing the defense of the grifers target kicks them.

Something like this plays out several hundred times a night in every game I play that has a "kick" function except Portal2 where the grifer simple disconnects ten seconds into a puzzle because they know that kicks the other player back to lobby to.

Quote:
What you may view as griefing they may not see as a problem, or may even be normal interaction for those people.


Yes. This is why I worry so when I see threads like this that are filled to the brim with people worried about Grifers. People often behave badly in games very often very badly; If Uru becomes more popular these people will undoubtedly show up in Uru. For the ones that are good people I would rather the Explorers not be used to reaching for function keys but continue making friends and talking to folks as a solution.

Quote:
Quote:
CS:Mode
I'm not sure where you got this idea.


Reading MOUL and GOW forums.

Quote:
Custom Builds/GPL License replies


Those that can in this community already have over the years, often because they felt they had the right. And on the GPL no system is "truly secure" especially with the current MOULa dependencies.

Quote:
Tying anything to account is pointless in a F2P game like Uru - it's painfully easy to make a new account. I would like to see more CSR support from Cyan, but I'm not sure how much good it would actually do with how easy it is to re-register.


Not pointless, its very effective to highlight "bad people" especially when enrollment is low.

Quote:
The uru code might be old, but it's not all that awful


python 2.3 bug/exploit list please see.

Quote:
anybody with custom code could "kick" somebody from any age already if they wanted to.

and that keeps me playing opposite hours from some groups.

Quote:
Everybody gets priviliges to control their owned age instances

Most other games have this and that's why I worry for Uru and Why people want it here. Not a big issue while Uru is half dead, Gametap Uru with lots of new and noisy, and personal space impaired people yeah I see the problems that could be.

_________________
Waymet


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:42 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 3:44 am
Posts: 166
Location: Wisconsin
PaladinOfKaos

Wow! I wasn't about to waste that much time on it. I doubt that it did any good.

MustardJeep

The fact is we already have an ignore function that has worked flawlessly to shut the griefers up and stop their nasty text. We are just adding invisibility to stop seeing them as well.

We can already keep people out of our private ages as well as our Hood by making the Hood private. The kick function that is being added gives us the option of kicking only from our private ages and private Hoods. Having our Hood on public allowing the good people to visit, and the griefers to be kicked. The only people of a Hood that can kick others from a Hood are the owner of that Hood and the people given permission by the owner, and yes it has always been the right of the owner of a Hood to limit access to his/her Hood.

The griefer would also be able to kick people from his/her ages as well as his/her Hood. Why anyone would care if a griefer would kick them from his/her age or Hood is beyond me.

The only people I can think of who would be apposed to these changes are the griefers.

And yes, nothing is perfect, but not attempting to make things better is stupid.

rocketdog

_________________
img src="http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/rocketdog100/rocketdogTS3.jpg" alt"image"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:07 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:52 pm
Posts: 1159
Location: US
MustardJeep wrote:
Something like this plays out several hundred times a night in every game I play that has a "kick" function except Portal2 where the grifer simple disconnects ten seconds into a puzzle because they know that kicks the other player back to lobby to.

Wow. I do this sometimes. but not to cause grief for others. Usually I have to go or Steam just randomly disconnects me. Plus it's not that big of a deal if it happens to me, I just get a new buddy and select the chamber I was on again. Simple. :) But yes, I can see how some people could call that griefing.

_________________
Image
TOC#60089 DI#132103 MOULa is Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:31 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Germany
Gentlemen (just very quickly, since I'm a bit pressed for time): this is a thread about adding invisibility to the /ignore function. It is not a thread about the /kick function (which, in the name of some weird kind of historical fairness, I will note was first suggested on these forums by a player called Calmiche on March 27th, 2010). If you think introducing a /kick function into the game is a topic the community should be discussing—to my knowledge no such function is currently in the works—I'd encourage you to start a different thread to talk about it. Thanks. :)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:07 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 3:44 am
Posts: 166
Location: Wisconsin
Gahlen

Quote:
to my knowledge no such function is currently in the works—I'd encourage you to start a different thread to talk about it. Thanks.


This has been talked about quit a bit in this thread as one of the things that should be added along with invisibility and has been added to the KI: New Feature Log by Mac_Fife ( http://guildofwriters.org/wiki/KI:_New_Feature_Log ).

However if you would still like me to make this a new post I will.

rocketdog

_________________
img src="http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/rocketdog100/rocketdogTS3.jpg" alt"image"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:31 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Germany
By "currently in the works" I meant "actively being coded and/or discussed with Cyan." I think the question of a /kick function raises issues that are not covered by this thread's title, and are not directly addressed by the arguments that speak for or against updating the /ignore function: it would be a wholly separate function from /ignore and would, it seems to me, address different griefing issues. This is why, when it came up early on, I tried to move discussion away from it. So if you feel strongly that we should be discussing it at this point (are you sure about this? before we've had a chance to implement even the minimal version of invisibility?), then yes, I'd be keen to see it get a thread all of its own. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:16 am 
Offline
Former MystOnline Moderator

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:05 pm
Posts: 4208
Location: 56°2'26", -3°20'28"
rocketdog wrote:
This has been talked about quit a bit in this thread as one of the things that should be added along with invisibility and has been added to the KI: New Feature Log by Mac_Fife ( http://guildofwriters.org/wiki/KI:_New_Feature_Log ).

Mis-attribution: I simply copied the existing article on the GoW wiki to OU's wiki as requested. ;)

And a discussion of /kick definitely doesn't belong in this thread.

_________________
Image Mac - MOULagain KI#00004826 00004289
In the interests of the environment, this post has been constructed entirely from recycled electrons.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:20 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:52 pm
Posts: 1159
Location: US
Mac_Fife wrote:
rocketdog wrote:
This has been talked about quit a bit in this thread as one of the things that should be added along with invisibility and has been added to the KI: New Feature Log by Mac_Fife ( http://guildofwriters.org/wiki/KI:_New_Feature_Log ).

Mis-attribution: I simply copied the existing article on the GoW wiki to OU's wiki as requested. ;)

And a discussion of /kick definitely doesn't belong in this thread.

I was the person who wrote up the GoW wiki article; Mac ported it over the OpenUru's wiki.

_________________
Image
TOC#60089 DI#132103 MOULa is Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:47 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 3:44 am
Posts: 166
Location: Wisconsin
Ok, I'll start a new thread on the kick function. If you would like me to hold off on it until after "we've had a chance to implement even the minimal version of invisibility" I will.

rocketdog

_________________
img src="http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/rocketdog100/rocketdogTS3.jpg" alt"image"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:31 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Germany
Rocket, dude, you don't have to listen to me … well, you do about this thread :twisted: , but not about waiting … :) I just think that taking a look at how invisibility works out in practice once we've had it in place for a bit might give us some information that would be really useful when it comes to talking about other issues relating to griefing. So I'm not saying we shouldn't have the discussion now under any circumstances, I just think we might have a better discussion once we've had a chance to experiment with this thing first.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:05 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 3:44 am
Posts: 166
Location: Wisconsin
Gahlen

Yes, I understand what you were saying and I was just letting you know that i'm willing to hold off for now. Hope this invisibility thing will get tested soon, I think it's a good idea.

rocketdog

_________________
img src="http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q598/rocketdog100/rocketdogTS3.jpg" alt"image"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:52 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:14 pm
Posts: 1773
Gahlen wrote:
Recent events in the Cavern (which I’d really like only to be discussed in the most general and schematic terms here if necessary, ok? so that the thread doesn’t get locked down before the conversation has a chance to get started) have gotten me thinking about good responses to inappropriate behaviour again. We’ve had a number of discussions on the forums about this in the past (which are easy enough to find if one goes hunting), and some of them made suggestions for an alteration to the game client to allow for, shall we say, a more robust answer to harrassment or other forms of griefing (the /kick function). These discussions were always a bit hypothetical, since there was really no indication at the time that fan modifications to the code would ever make it onto Cyan’s version of the game; recent moves forward in open source, however, along with our currently somewhat improved funding situation, have made it seem to me, at least, that this conversation could now profitably be re-opened. And: I have a specific proposal.

I agree with the objections that people made to the /kick-function idea. In a nutshell, it had too much potential for abuse. But there is more than one way of removing someone from your gaming experience. I would like to suggest that we reconsider a less intrusive suggestion also made in earlier discussions: the possibility of modifying the /ignore-function of the KI (or of adding an additional function we might call /shun) to make the ignored avatar not merely inaudible, as is currently the case, but invisible as well.

Most griefing operates on the assumption that a certain kind of behaviour on the part of the griefer will elicit a certain desirable response from the victim (fear, anger, confusion, whatever), and it is this response that provides the griefer with his or her motivation to continue. In the Cavern, options for influencing another person’s playing experience are largely limited to KI-messages, chat, and what goes on on the screen. This last is what concerns me at the moment: it’s an immensely disturbing experience to have to watch in third person as your personal space is repeatedly violated by another avatar, or to turn around in first person to find him leering over your shoulder. The ability to ‘disappear’ someone else would render this kind of griefing immediately ineffective without compromising the griefer’s rights to be in a certain place at a certain time or to continue to interact with those players who are still willing to tolerate his or her behaviour.

So I wonder if we could talk about this. What might speak for this idea, what reservations do we have about it, what haven’t I thought of that might make me abandon it altogether in favour of something even cleverer?

One final point: Lontahv at the Guild of Writers tells me that this is an entirely possible, even minor modification to the xKI Python code. So it could be done. The question is therefore: do we want it?

(Edited for accuracy.)



I hate to kick a dead horse....where did this get off for SOOO many pages.... And yet the same is the same..

_________________
Moul(A)II Charura KI#296707 Char Gearz KI#600002 Teri Dactyl KI#600568 Chickopee KI#601018 Cannon Belle KI#601422

_____________________________
How Many Times Does A Myst Player Play Myst Before A Myst Player Decides To Play Myst Again


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:51 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
Posts: 2266
Location: Tigard, OR
I had a lot to say, so I went ahead and started the /kick discussion thread.

http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=380315

8)

_________________
MOULa KI: 26838 | Prologue Videos | Visit rel.to to explore Myst, Uru, and D'ni communities!
Click here for social/game profiles


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 165 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron