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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Geert wrote:
So to me i think for that should be the first priority to have control over your buddylist and who puts you on his buddylist.

Just a thought :wink:


I don't know if it'd be my first priority, but definitely in the top three! Great suggestion, Geert :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Geert wrote:
Marten wrote:
I think rocketdog had a well thought out analysis of actual user needs.


I wonder :?:

One thing in the KI I am missing is that i can't approve a buddy. You can add whoever yoy want to the buddylist without someone knowing. Even with ignore someone can follow you in the game. So to me i think for that should be the first priority to have control over your buddylist and who puts you on his buddylist.

Just a thought :wink:


The KI is already one of the worst UI designs in any game with entirely too much complexity... This just pushes it way over the top. Aside from that, this isn't an issue in other games--your buddy list isn't facebook.

I say all this as the guy who will be diving into the ten thousand line KI script and adding this improved ignore functionality... ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:34 pm 
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While griefing is a problem there are any things we can all ready do to deter the said griefers. I really don't think writing a bunch of new code is going to achieve much.One is the ignore button for the the offender,that can take care of one problem. I have used this function on many that became annoying on Buddie Chat or PM's (like pics coming in constantly) because I was involved in something else at the time. I then removed them from the list after I was done Lock ur relto down and don't invite any one to ur ages unless you know and trust them well. Relto-spamming is easily taken care of by just going afk, I believe ur vox still works and to text just pop-up, text and go afk if the spammer is still bothering you. Ur hood can easliy be set to private and just invite the ones you want in there, members I think get an automatic pass to the hood. The running thru an avie can be taken care of by meshing all the group into one,if ur are a single avie seek out help.ASK for help, I am sure many of us will be glad to assist till the offender loses interest. Now the uninvite someone from an age or hood option could be nice. Public instances will always have this kinda of problem even if you do have a 'POLICE' to watch over this to kick/ban an offender. It seems they find a way back any how.Now if the offender is a hacker/cracker write all the code you want it ain't going to help. I have taken care of a griefer before if you all want I will bring GREIFREAPER back, just ask .

P.S. I am sure some will, I can not disagree with you more on this.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:37 pm 
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AdamJohnso wrote:
Geert wrote:
Marten wrote:
I think rocketdog had a well thought out analysis of actual user needs.

The KI is already one of the worst UI designs in any game with entirely too much complexity... This just pushes it way over the top. Aside from that, this isn't an issue in other games--your buddy list isn't facebook.

I say all this as the guy who will be diving into the ten thousand line KI script and adding this improved ignore functionality... ;)


It's not a facebookfacility, it;s a chat facillity. It's rather anoying to have people shouting over the buddychannel you have never met. Besides that everybody has the ability to trace you if they want it, Somehow the present system makes the buddylist rather obsolete if you don't have any control over it, maybe you could remove those lines of code to simplify, :wink: :wink: .

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:48 pm 
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Marten Wrote:


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Just say revocable. If it's revocable, it isn't permanent. Smile



Yes, I didn't state that very well, sorry. I did fixed it.

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Last edited by rocketdog on Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:49 pm 
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AdamJohnso wrote:
The KI is already one of the worst UI designs in any game with entirely too much complexity...


It only needs some small changes. It would really stink to have a completely new interface.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:52 pm 
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As the KI stands, removing anything is impractical. It can be done, but it would be a huge waste of time, when in reality the entire communication system should be overhauled. The programmers I have regular contact with (and that includes myself) sweat just thinking about it :wink:

I'm done raining on your parade now :P

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:24 am 
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AdamJohnso wrote:
The programmers I have regular contact with (and that includes myself) sweat just thinking about it :wink:

I was joking about removing code.... :wink:

As mentioned by some others, i just wonder if there is a need to change the present system of ignore if it only complicates it more.
The present KI system is not that bad. I do like the seperate channel for hoodmembers because it is controlled by making a member. The buddysystem only needs an ok if someone adds you as a buddy and his name should also appear in your buddy list. It would make it possible to remove someone of your buddylist.

Sun will be shining here tomorrow btw :P :P

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:56 am 
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Well, day 2 of the thread, and things have proliferated a bit. Since I’m personally only interested in one question here, I’m only going to focus on that: Do we think that the Cavern would be a better place than it is now with an enhanced /ignore function or not? Here, once again entirely subjectively, is what I’m seeing.
    1. The universal approval of the idea we saw on day 1 has now begun to fray a bit. I was expecting this. People have urged essentially three objections: it will make the Cavern inconvenient for normal usage (Marten); it won’t solve the problem, so it’s a waste of time (Eleri, Alien, DaVinci); it has too much potential for abuse (adi). More on all of this below.

    2. We have had one or two useful suggestions about dealing with specific problems that could arise if such a function was introduced and it made both avatars invisible to each other. I would still like to read some more of these, but for the moment I don’t see anyone arguing strongly against mutuality and for non-mutual invisibility.* (I am currently trying to find out what would be involved technically in making invisible avatars in the same Age appear in the column on the left somewhere; I’ll post about this specifically when I know more.)
    *I am going to turn out to have been wrong about this: see Marten's reply on the next page. :oops:

    3. We have had a host of really excellent ideas for other things we could add to the KI, the chat system, the physics of the game, and the way the Ages are administered. All of these exceed the resources that are at our disposal at the moment. They are: one (highly talented but rather stressed) Python coder who has kindly offered to write us, in his (practically non-existent) spare time, an enhanced /ignore function on the Guild of Writers’ CWE fork, from which it could be then ported to the repositories at OpenUru; the guys at OpenUru, who have now got a system in place to test it and make it jump through all the hoops it needs to jump through in order to land at Cyan for their approval or rejection; and finally a little bit of extra money in the Cavcon fund which might, if we keep at it (and I stress this), just barely be enough to fund the time that Chogon would need to implement it. That’s it. This is a change we can make happen in the coming months, if we want to. A completely reworked KI complete with snazzy windows and a function that made it stand on its head and sing ‘Bonny Mary’, much as I’d love it, is not. 8)
So what we’re thinking about here is this one option: yay or nay. Not ‘I’d rather have something else.’ It’s this, or this aspect of the game stays as it is at the moment. Those are the only two alternatives currently on the table.

Now, here’s what I think about the objections to changing the current /ignore function.
    1. Marten argues that the /ignore function as it stands is more useful, because less intrusive, than an enhanced function with invisibility would be. Rhee has suggested some alternative ways of dealing with the scenarios he describes, but I think we’d all agree that they are all of them rather cumbersome. JWPlatt reckons that a redesigned chat system would solve this; I think he’s likely to be right, but we can’t do that right now. So we have to decide: Is the inconvenience that this would cause in the short- and medium-term greater than the trauma currently caused by griefers to those players whom they select as their victims? I believe that the answer to this is no. I genuinely can’t imagine anyone deleting all their avatars and leaving the game because they can’t simply /ignore their buddies or an annoying person in an audience without making the annoying person and themselves invisible to each other any more. I can imagine people doing so because every time they enter the Cavern there is someone following them around and violating their personal space. I can imagine that because it’s happened. Please read Isobel’s post from the first page of this thread again. Does the current usefulness of our purely aural /ignore function really outweigh the benefits of stopping what she describes, and stopping it soon?

    2. That brings us to the second objection: it wouldn’t work, so it’s a waste of time. I think that, as an objection, this is missing the point. No one ever suggested that this would stop slander, youtube stalking, or all sorts of other ways of making someone’s life miserable. I introduced this idea merely to put a stop to one specific form of harrassment: the way that someone can, by using his or her avatar, interfere with my own by following me or invading my space. It may be that not everyone identifies with their avatar as much as I do: after all, it’s just pixels, right? But for some people, that little guy on the screen down there, he’s me. Now let’s imagine for a moment that I’m not big tough Gahlen (or DaVinci or Eleri) with whom you mess at your peril: let’s imagine I’m a child, or an insecure teenager, or maybe a woman who’s been a victim of sexual abuse in RL. And bang! I’m somewhere down there in D’ni Ae’gura—say, paying my respects at the memorial—and this guy suddenly comes up from behind and sits down inside me … If I’m Charura, whose toughness I can only applaud (yes, I was in the Cavern yesterday too), I ignore him and carry on as if nothing had happened. But if I’m less certain of myself, more vulnerable, more easily frightened …? We need to think about this from the perspective of the weakest amongst us, not of the strongest. This wouldn’t hinder the latter too much, but it could be of enormous aid to the former. I can’t tell you how much I want to see them with another option than just having to run away, again and again.

    3. The third objection: it could be abused. Sure. It could. I suggested a scenario in my last post, other people have suggested others. But let’s think for a second: we already have an /ignore function. How many of us have been victimised by whole groups of other people using it on us already? I’m guessing very few. If that’s the case, if as a community we’re actually pretty reticent about using the /ignore function we already have, why are we so afraid that if we give it a visual function, we all will suddenly become totally trigger-happy and start /ignoring each other left, right and centre? Guys: I don’t see it happening. I really don’t. This community, despite all its weaknesses and all the things that disappoint us about it, is not like that. Call me an idealist (or the psychiatrist :D ), but that’s what I believe. And I think our experiences together in the Cavern this last couple of years bear me out.

I’d love for the people I’ve disagreed with above to post again and tell me what they think. And I’d also be keen to see more people post who haven’t done so far.

(Added about a half-an-hour later: Semperfli, dude, your post has given me an idea. If we do this, there's an awesome game we could play with it in Jalak ... :D )

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Last edited by Gahlen on Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:17 am 
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Gahlen , maybe I was a little misunderstood. I was speaking of the here and now moment aspect of what could be done for griefers/offenders. Yes ur ' I am invisible to you' idea is good to a point. If the offender knows what is going on they merely change their avvie (which is occurring all the time with an offender) and come back and start over, so the victim is again assaulted anyway. This usually occurs in the public instances for the most part. I really wish when this happens the victimized would call out for help from friends or the community in general for assistance. A " Hey group this guy or gal is really bothering me'" might go a long way.
Now if you are a loner, seek out a group to just stand/sit with, you don't have to speak/text,but if feeling threatened by some one speak to the group then.
It will take time and probably monies to get what you want implemented, more likely time though.
I am kinda of on the fence with this,yes good idea's,but will it really be beneficial. One could end up with a very long "ignore/ I am invisible" list to contend with merely because of what I stated about changing avvies. The "uninvite" idea I would like to see,and the confirm a buddie would be nice too, but niether of these are that important to me.
I will stay open minded on this because it is an important issue we as a community need to resolve.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:34 am 
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I am in favour of mutual invisibility and revoke invitation . The chat problem as mentioned could perhaps be solved with a fourth channel : team-players . If buddies chat too much , ask them to switch to team-chat . This way you do not have to remove buddies from your list , and it would be a neat solution when it comes to tracking newbees during a doorrun . :P


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Whatever is needed to do reg. this topics 'subject' .. It needs to be dealt with. I heard again last night about
a good Buddie who now perhaps HAS left for good .. due 'A Persistant Griefer'! How many more will it take?

But on a side-note! Tommyap's Idea -- A new Team-Chat-Channel addded to KI. Could that be doable? If so ..
I'd like to have that option! But that's a subject for a new Topic .. Not discussed here, in this one.

/ Max /

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Gahlen wrote:
if as a community we’re actually pretty reticent about using the /ignore function we already have, why are we so afraid that if we give it a visual function, we all will suddenly become totally trigger-happy and start /ignoring each other left, right and centre?


Because this is what's already happening!

You have no idea how populated are people's ignore lists, and for simple reasons like, "this guy talks a lot", "this one is saying hi and bye all the time", "that one talks in their mother language a lot", "the other is hugging everyone", and so on. Do you see any offence or abuse of the terms of use in that?

A potential enhanced version with mutual disappearance of it is really giving me the creeps and a very good reason to stop setting foot to the public Ghost City. But that's just me. :P


edit: I believe I've made my point clear by now so I'll try to stay silent until I have something new to contribute to this conversation, before I turn to a boring hater and progress denier and a lovely new addition to everyone's ignore lists which would make my nightmare come true :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Then, Ghalen, my answer is: No, I don't think it is needed.

To further suggestions I answer NO! Are you out of your minds!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Rudolfson wrote:

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Then, Ghalen, my answer is: No, I don't think it is needed.

To further suggestions I answer NO! Are you out of your minds!


Your objection being what exactly?


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