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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Gahlen,

I appreciate your work in facilitating this discussion. I would appreciate more if you could read my posts a bit carefully! :lol:

I am definitely arguing strongly against mutual invisibility, and in favor of non-mutual invisibility! You seem to have taken my argument against mutual invisibility and mis-applied it as an argument against enhancing /ignore at all. I believe you may have similarly mis-applied others' arguments in this way as well, and hope you'll check with the others who've voiced objections. With all of the options being bandied about, it is important that we keep track of whether objections are made to those options, or to the general idea.

The idea of the double-blind ignore function seems really contentious to me. And, I believe counter to you - a double-blind ignore function would make me less likely to play the game. It would also make me less likely to participate in the improvement and development process. I'm not going to rage quit and delete characters, but the user interface to Uru is clunky enough, and if we tie a behavior I seriously dislike to a tool I currently use, that is going to demotivate me.

I like your original recommendation of making the ignored person invisible as well as muted. It doesn't make the game less useful in normal use. I didn't see much, if any, argument against that - the objections sprang up around the two-way version. I would like to get back to discussing the original idea.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Could it be a good time to add a poll or two, to get a raw idea of "what people want", maybe?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:08 pm 
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The idea of the victim being invisible to the greifer and both being invisible to each other, was something I think I thought of / suggested first (unless I am mistaken and someone else suggested it before me).
I kind of feel responsible for this debate on mutual invisibility, and for that I apologise.
Having read some of the excellent comments here, I am now of the opinion mutual invisibility might be a good idea, but it is too flawed to work properly, the biggest problems would be from a 3rd person point of view.

As I have stated before (my previous post in this thread iirc), I believe that having a better in-game moderator presence is the answer.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:19 pm 
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Marten wrote:
I would appreciate more if you could read my posts a bit carefully! :lol:

I am definitely arguing strongly against mutual invisibility, and in favor of non-mutual invisibility!

You're absolutely right (about what you're arguing :) ), I apologise. Was whizzing through the posts late last night, trying to get everything boiled down to a simple schema, missing (some important) details. DaVinci has clarified his objection to focus on mutual invisibility, and adi has indicated that mutuality is at the heart of her concerns too, I stand corrected with respect to both of their positions as well. Thanks, guys: keep keeping me on my toes.

(Everyone does remember that only mutual invisibility would make Relto-spamming impossible, right? Just checking ... :D )

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:28 pm 
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Gahlen wrote:
(Everyone does remember that only mutual invisibility would make Relto-spamming impossible, right? Just checking ... :D )


I'm certain that is a technical limitation that can be overcome, it just may take more time and effort. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:40 pm 
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I think another thing (or few things) to be aware of is the ease of appilcation of the suggested fixes, whatever they might be. Now, I may be wrong, so any programmer-type person that knows better, please feel free to correct me, but this is what I understand are the "easy" things to change (ie simple addition/change to existing KI code):

1. Who can and cannot see text chat - currently, the /ignore function blocks out the text chat of those that the player has ignored, but the ignored player can still see the text chat of the person that has ignored them. In an updated version, this could remain the same or be changed to mutual-inreadability.

2. Who can and cannot hear voice chat - currently, works the same as the text chat... ignored player cannot be heard, but can still hear the voice chat of the person ignoring them. And could be updated in the same way as the situation noted above.

3. Who can and cannot see avatars - currently, both avatars remain visible, but the ignored player is no longer "clickable." The reverse is not true, as can be seen in the case of Relto-spamming. In an updated version of /ignore, either one (the ignored) or both avatars will become invisible (not on a global scale, just between the two of them) as well as unclickable.
[TANGENT]while I realize it wouldn't address any of the mutual invisibility concerns already mentioned, what if the ignoring avvie was the one that vanished, rather than the offender? /hide? haha anyway[/TANGENT]

Other things that have been suggested would require considerably more programming change, to the point of revolutionizing the entire KI interface, which is like, three boatloads of work, but in the long run could solve some of the other issues mentioned, such as:
1. buddy approval (no one can add you as a buddy unless you grant permission through KI interface)
2. adding a Team Chat channel to the current chat abilities
3. adding multiple channels in general to the current chat abilities
4. revoking invitations and kicking /ignore 'd players out of personal ages/hoods
5. and there are many more great ideas out there.

I realize this is something of a reiteration of part of one of Gahlen's recent posts (day 2 summary, article A.3.), but I thought this might make it clearer exactly what IS and IS NOT easy to change.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:02 pm 
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Marten wrote:
Gahlen wrote:
(Everyone does remember that only mutual invisibility would make Relto-spamming impossible, right? Just checking ... :D )


I'm certain that is a technical limitation that can be overcome, it just may take more time and effort. :)

I don't think being invisible is the only way to prevent relto-spamming.
You may already have experienced the bug that prevent you from sharing your relto book because Uru thinks that other avatar is "busy", so it shows the X book icon. You just have to turn this bug into feature for /ignored avatars :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:02 pm 
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Rhee wrote:
1. Who can and cannot see text chat - currently, the /ignore function blocks out the text chat of those that the player has ignored, but the ignored player can still see the text chat of the person that has ignored them. In an updated version, this could remain the same or be changed to mutual-inreadability.


This would be a good thing to add to a /fullignore feature. Said trouble makers (provided your avie is not moving) would never know you weren't afk!

Increasingly this discussion leans towards keeping the /ignore feature with no changes (For meetings and such as suggested before) and adding a new /fullignore feature to combat true trouble makers.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:21 pm 
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Trekluver wrote:
Increasingly this discussion leans towards keeping the /ignore feature with no changes (For meetings and such as suggested before) and adding a new /fullignore feature to combat true trouble makers.

I agree that this might be lovely, but think again about what I said yesterday about resources. Adding whole new functions to the KI (rather than just revising the ones we have) would require a whole lot more time and effort than we currently have to work with. If you feel strongly that this is the way we should go, you are therefore also arguing that we should put this off for a long time. I believe that that's a coherent and arguable position, but in terms of our current question--should we do something about this in the coming months or not?--it's a no.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Gahlen wrote:
Trekluver wrote:
Increasingly this discussion leans towards keeping the /ignore feature with no changes (For meetings and such as suggested before) and adding a new /fullignore feature to combat true trouble makers.

I agree that this might be lovely, but think again about what I said yesterday about resources. Adding whole new functions to the KI (rather than just revising the ones we have) would require a whole lot more time and effort than we currently have to work with. If you feel strongly that this is the way we should go, you are therefore also arguing that we should put this off for a long time. I believe that that's a coherent and arguable position, but in terms of our current question--should we do something about this in the coming months or not?--it's a no.


Basically what I'm saying is take the existing /ignore code, and modify it to include invisibility and chat hide (for your own chat) for the ignored person of interest and apply that in a /fullignore command. It would be an equal amount of work either way, especially if it's just a copy and paste job. I am by no means suggesting overhauling the KI. :) And like I said before, no opposition to this idea from me. I just think it would be in the better interest of everybody involved to have this as a separate command.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:53 pm 
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My apologies that this doesn't add to the discussion, but did you know it's anti bullying week?
http://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/words-can-hurt-too.html

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:09 pm 
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I've been following this thread and find the discussion very interesting. I haven't formed an opinion of my own yet because I find value in the arguments presented by all here. I do have a couple of "stupid" questions though....

What is Realto-spamming? How do I know if it's happend to me? How do I prevent it if it hasn't - or stop it if it has?

Hmmm.... that's more then a "couple" but you get the idea. :wink:

Oh - and how do you go about ignoring someone? I mean - in the course of a conversation if I want to /ignore someone who's griefing me - how do I target that specific person and not wind up /ignoring everyone?

Apologies in advance if I'm getting off-topic.

Kero

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:32 pm 
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Hi Kero! Welcome the thread! Relto-spamming is when someone else uses the "share book" function to share his or her Relto book with you when you weren't expecting it or don't want it. What you see is the other person's book suddenly appear in front of you blocking out most of your screen. It's extremely annoying, and the way the game currently works, there is no simple way to stop someone doing it to you. As for the /ignore function in its present form, can I just point you to the Guild of Greeters' Illustrated KI Guide, the section on how to operate the Buddies List (http://www.guildofgreeters.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=38#buddies_list): the Ignore List works exactly the same way.

Remember to post back if you decide what you think about invisibility—the more people who weigh in on this, the better!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:32 pm 
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m.a.x.2.0 brought up exactly what I was refering to earlier,timing. Someting needs to be done now,not later with the available tools we have
max, without using names can you give an account of what took place and what was said ?? I ask only to clear some haze from what we think we need and what is actually needed to help our community.
Now for the devils advocate :twisted: This griefer/offender is this a child? A challenged person in some way. Here again did the victimized seek out friendly help or use the available KI functions or tools to combat this?

Kero, open the KI to Buddies Icon (that is the middle one) if the person is not in your buddie list then look under the KI screen icon in age players and find said person. Click on said person and aglowing arrow should be seen next to the ignore list. Click this and that should put the said person on ignore.
Relto -spamming is when someone repeatedly flashes their Rleto book in your face when you have know intention of going to that relto.

P.S. m.a.x.2.0 I really really hope your good Buddie will come back so we can help or resolve this.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:12 am 
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DaVinci, dude, you are trying to derail my thread! :D I've already described exactly the kind of situation for which I'm arguing that invisibility would help us. I reckon my descriptions are clear enough, and no one has asserted that this kind of stuff doesn't happen, or isn't happening as we speak. You've already put your case that you think there might be alternatives which are just as good; I'd be fine with it being restated on the basis of some further general or theoretical example. But if people start talking about what was done in some specific instance to this person by that person, even without naming names, it won't be long before everyone else who was there or has seen something similar starts weighing in with their differing descriptions or interpretations or suggestions of what really happened and what should have been done, and although the thread will suddenly become a whole lot more exciting :D , it will also become a whole lot more short-lived. :? (You know that'll happen, we've both seen it here before often enough.)

As for the question of whether the person behind another avatar behaving inappropriately is a child or handicapped, I think that whereas the right response for some of us might well be to talk or try to reason gently with such a person, it's still a counsel of the strong: you can do that, so can I. But if you're weak, or young, or just plain terrified by someone who keeps following you about and trying to get inside your body, we might still want to say, the best response would be to ask for help, sure, but would it be a really bad thing if the "make him disappear" option was still available to someone in that situation? Perhaps purely as a last resort? I'm not saying anyone should ever use this, there might always be better ways of handling things; but I think this would be an effective way, and I would just love it to be an option, that's all.

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