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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:39 pm 
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Actually, the Great Zero line points east. The rugs are oriented correctly.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:43 pm 
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Okay, here's a rough layout of the cavern I just made in GIMP with the current locations that exist either in game, or we've seen in some screenshots or released images labeled. The Intangible's is using a more complex version obviously, but since this is an important topic amongst the fans I figured I'd draw you a quick preview the layout. There's obviously a lot more cavern locations than the ones labeled but for obvious surprise reasons I've left those off this quick drawing.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


According to RAWA, - "When the planet has a magnetic field they would typically use magnetic north for the zero angle. On planets without a strong magnetic field they would pick a physical point of reference as viewed from the original link-in location to set the angle." This also seems to be backed up by information within the GZ notebooks IIRC.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:36 pm 
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The zero line points in the direction that magnetic north was in when the Guild of Maintainers first linked to the cavern, which was standard practice for the Guild of Maintainers both of Garternay and D'ni, when the D'ni guild was founded. If for some reason they couldn't read a magnetic north, then they used a prominent landmark as seen from the link in point as the zero orientation.

As anyone who deals with maps can tell you, magnetic north doesn't have all that much to do with true north, which is the northern point of rotational axis of the planet. Magnetic north drifts every year. I believe that was the fact that gave king Me'erta an excuse to lobby for the zero line to be changed to one that ran along the western edge of the Great Library courtyard around 1817 DE. Anyone with a compass would have been able to see that the line through the arch wasn't north anymore. Me'erta proposed changing it to a prominent landmark... which just happened to coincide with the location of the newly built Temple of the Tree, a splinter cult he was supporting. How about that, eh?

His proposal was not adopted officially, but it muddied the issue enough for that line to show up as the zero meridian on some maps. It wasn't until 3112 DE that a king, Rakeri in this case, finally weighed in on the subject and declared that the line through the arch was to considered north for all time, and to heck with what the compasses said.

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 2:52 pm 
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Alternatively,
[Reveal] Spoiler:
(IC) The Aitrus’ map is a DRC-made composite map based on various drawings and notes (it seems a bit unlikely for a survey map to include anecdotes about lizards); in particular, the Cavern drawing was just a sketch, as Aitrus was documenting the path to the Surface and not the Cavern itself.

(IC?) Cosmic retcon, Yeesha did it! :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:50 pm 
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I had forgotten how much magnetic north moved (especially over nine and a half thousand years).

For anyone that wants them (according to Wolfram|Alpha; I have no idea how accurate it is), the approximate magnetic declinations for Eddy County:

Also, unrelated to the GZ line, I assume that this map (see 'The Cavern') found on the old DRC site is wrong?
Image

Edit: And, regarding Me'erta's line:

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 6:41 am 
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There's always the viewpoint that you can't use Uru as an accurate representation of the city, because of the amount of space condensing they had to do to make it a viable explorable space technically... and the theory that K'veer is in the wrong spot in either the map or the game, based on seeing the Arch directly outside the windows.
We do have a rather different, more detailed map in Unwritten, based on multiple documents & existing maps, but that shouldn't be taken as canon, either- just a reinterpretation to meet the needs of GMs and players.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:37 pm 
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When I tried to mark the location of the neighborhoods on the section of Aitrus' map I showed earlier, I was basing that on the fact that you can see the front of Kerath's Arch straight on from K'veer and have a fairly straight view of the Arch and the Great Stairs from the neighborhood balconies. Both views are only a few degrees off from the zero meridian, and that's backed up by the KI reading of the neighborhood link-in point. The toran reading on your KI is about 1 degree west of the zero meridian.

The problem with Chloe's map is that it doesn't match with either of the angles of those views. Additionally, it doesn't match with the dimensions of the cavern as stated in DRC documents, which say that the cavern is approximately 3 miles long by 1 mile wide. By her map, from both locations we should be seeing the ring of stalagmites surrounding the harbor and the bulk of the island's western side, with the arch off on the left. It also means that we should be able to see the City out past Kerath's Arch very clearly from any point on the island where we get an elevated view, such as Tokotah Courtyard, the Library Courtyard, and the Concert Hall Foyer.

It has to be taken into account that the her map is just a rough sketch she did in a hurry, but if the approximate angles and distances are in the right ballpark, it doesn't add up with what we see in-cavern. Nor does it match with the neighborhood KI reading; by her sketch, the neighborhoods would have to be right on the western edge of the City.

Lacking the source material she's using and any word from Cyan as to the truth of the matter, I'd have to say that it's still very uncertain. Aitrus' map and the one found on the DRC site appear to match what we see in the game better than her sketch does. I'm really wishing that Cyan had been able to make the City available as an explorable area like they'd planned to! A KI reading from it would clear things right up.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 5:13 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
I'm really wishing that Cyan had been able to make the City available as an explorable area like they'd planned to! A KI reading from it would clear things right up.
I'm pretty sure the City Proper (I assume you mean the City Proper) is centred around the place where the GZ line intersects with the cavern wall; it's more or less stated in the Ri'neref notebook:
Sam Reynolds wrote:
Unlike previous occasions, Ri'neref established the line of the Great Zero as set apart for holy buildings. Without authorization by the reigning King, construction was forbidden.

Though it's never stated directly, records strongly imply that it was Ri'neref who chose where the city would be established. He seemed to base his decision on two factors (which probably made the decision an easy one). First was the line of the Great Zero. It seemed an obvious spot to base the city, with the most important religious structures being directly on the line and the rest of the city surrounding its center. The second factor was a group of waterfalls that flowed from the ceiling of the cavern to an area adjacent to the line of the Great Zero. The fresh flowing water was perfect for drinking.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 5:44 pm 
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Carolyn wrote:
I'm pretty sure the City Proper (I assume you mean the City Proper)


Yes. I just prefer to use the proper terms, which is a personal quirk. The City is the actual city constructed in the cavern wall. Despite what it says in Nexus, Ae'gura Island isn't the City; the D'ni (as written in the welcome message on the Arch and Ferry Terminal, and as written in the Book of Ti'ana) called Ae'gura "the island". Because of that, I call it Ae'gura, Ae'gura Island, or the island. I never call it "the city".

I presume that the category "the city" that appears in the Nexus menu came about because Cyan had intended to put linking locations in the actual City on it, but never got that far.

Quote:
is centred around the place where the GZ line intersects with the cavern wall; it's more or less stated in the Ri'neref notebook:
Sam Reynolds wrote:
Unlike previous occasions, Ri'neref established the line of the Great Zero as set apart for holy buildings. Without authorization by the reigning King, construction was forbidden.


Agreed, and I don't dispute that. What I'm pointing out is that it doesn't jibe with the observable data or the maps that have been released. It's all fine to brush it aside by saying, "that's just the way it appears in the game, as opposed to real life", but there is no "real life". The game is the reality we have to work with, and it gives us views and navigation data that do not match with the City being placed on the zero meridian. We have a very pronounced contradiction in what is written versus what is observable. That's why my tendency at the moment is to go with the written data as being in the wrong, because the "reality" I can see in the cavern is different from it. It's just about impossible to reconcile.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:15 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
Carolyn wrote:
I'm pretty sure the City Proper (I assume you mean the City Proper)


Yes. I just prefer to use the proper terms, which is a personal quirk. The City is the actual city constructed in the cavern wall. Despite what it says in Nexus, Ae'gura Island isn't the City; the D'ni (as written in the welcome message on the Arch and Ferry Terminal, and as written in the Book of Ti'ana) called Ae'gura "the island". Because of that, I call it Ae'gura, Ae'gura Island, or the island. I never call it "the city".

I presume that the category "the city" that appears in the Nexus menu came about because Cyan had intended to put linking locations in the actual City on it, but never got that far.

Quote:
is centred around the place where the GZ line intersects with the cavern wall; it's more or less stated in the Ri'neref notebook:
Sam Reynolds wrote:
Unlike previous occasions, Ri'neref established the line of the Great Zero as set apart for holy buildings. Without authorization by the reigning King, construction was forbidden.


Agreed, and I don't dispute that. What I'm pointing out is that it doesn't jibe with the observable data or the maps that have been released. It's all fine to brush it aside by saying, "that's just the way it appears in the game, as opposed to real life", but there is no "real life". The game is the reality we have to work with, and it gives us views and navigation data that do not match with the City being placed on the zero meridian. We have a very pronounced contradiction in what is written versus what is observable. That's why my tendency at the moment is to go with the written data as being in the wrong, because the "reality" I can see in the cavern is different from it. It's just about impossible to reconcile.


I don't want to get into too much detail without giving away any future content the Intangible's group may be working on, so let me put this in spoilers for even those that might not want ANYTHING ruined even though its very small info...

[Reveal] Spoiler:
I understand people's hesitancy to go with what the reality is (Uru) vs what's written (Books, prior games etc) and try and reconcile all of this. Which is why the Intangible's group has always been very keen on keeping a good lock on merging the two without introducing new contradictions. Take K'veer as an example. As Eleri pointed out the Arch seems to be rather big and you get a very good glimpse of the city from K'veer as well as the Island. But, and without giving too much away, remember that areas were built all around the cavern walls, not just the City but expansion areas as well, not to mention the neighborhood area. So Cyan created a backdrop for the cavern where, while it may seem like what you're seeing is the city in the distance, in reality it could be one of those expanded areas and you actually haven't seen the true City. This is indicated on some of the info we got from Cyan, there are ALOT of places in the cavern that can be seen from K'veer, the Island, and the hoods, enough to make the backdrop non-nondescript and instead create a generic backdrop that can be fit into anywhere with a view.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:08 pm 
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{Nods}

Chloe, it's very clear in Cyan's pre-production art that your map would have been very close to canon in the early days of designing Uru. The original concept had Kerath's Arch as the gateway to the City, rather than the Island. That can be seen in these pictures:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


The Island design didn't have an enclosed harbor back then, and that was shown in the clay models they made at the time. In those days, it was quite clear that the City was on the zero meridian. Then when they actually made the game, they made some very big changes for reasons I do not know, and the map shown on the DRC site reflects those changes.

It may well be that the kings' notebooks were written in those days, and were never changed when they redesigned the models.

In later concept art, the Arch got closer and closer to the island until it formed an enclosed harbor, first with a man-made breakwater and then with a stalagmite ring that evolved into the model they used.

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 am 
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Carolyn wrote:
Also, unrelated to the GZ line, I assume that this map (see 'The Cavern') found on the old DRC site is wrong?
Image


This map is also used in the Book of Atrus, so it goes way back. (There are some differences in the text: the DRC version adds the 41 label and moves "Island" under "Central" to make room. It also adds the question mark after K'veer.)

larryf58 wrote:
The original concept had Kerath's Arch as the gateway to the City, rather than the Island. That can be seen in these pictures:


But the sketches in the Book of Atrus show Kerath's Arch located at the mouth of the Ae'gura harbor. Isn't that Ae'gura on the left of those concept images, with the City on the right?

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 2:45 am 
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Talashar wrote:
But the sketches in the Book of Atrus show Kerath's Arch located at the mouth of the Ae'gura harbor. Isn't that Ae'gura on the left of those concept images, with the City on the right?


I can see why you think so, and there's always the possibility that I'm wrong because I'm not interpreting the pictures correctly. On the other hand, at least to me, the buildings behind the arch don't look anything like the ones on the island and the large stalagmite mountain they crawl up doesn't look much like the one with the Great Zero on top.

There is a concept picture from a little later in the design process that we can compare it to. While it's very different from the island we see today, it still doesn't look much like the three pictures I put up earlier.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


Here's a picture of the clay model they worked up that shows the most of the features of the current island, but before they added the enclosed harbor. It also shows some of the residential districts that they didn't get around to adding in the game. It's too big an image to include here, so I'll link to it.

Clay model of Ae'gura

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 8:22 am 
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Talashar wrote:
Carolyn wrote:
Also, unrelated to the GZ line, I assume that this map (see 'The Cavern') found on the old DRC site is wrong?
Image


This map is also used in the Book of Atrus, so it goes way back. (There are some differences in the text: the DRC version adds the 41 label and moves "Island" under "Central" to make room. It also adds the question mark after K'veer.)

larryf58 wrote:
The original concept had Kerath's Arch as the gateway to the City, rather than the Island. That can be seen in these pictures:


But the sketches in the Book of Atrus show Kerath's Arch located at the mouth of the Ae'gura harbor. Isn't that Ae'gura on the left of those concept images, with the City on the right?


In those images, yes Ae'gura is on the left (I have a high res version of the second image in larryf58's post that I was gifted long ago).

The view originally comes from DIRT, the player would walk the tunnels to D'ni then get in a boat for the last stretch, they would enter the cavern and see this view of the City and the City Proper.

However, that layout isn't quite right. As the location that you emerge from the tunnels is behind Ae'gura not to the side of it.

In terms of canon, the Myst games and novels have been (at the release of Uru) treated as second hand accounts so not wholly accurate, and Uru has been treated as the canon because it's "real".

ChloeRhodes wrote:
Okay, here's a rough layout of the cavern I just made in GIMP with the current locations that exist either in game, or we've seen in some screenshots or released images labeled. The Intangible's is using a more complex version obviously, but since this is an important topic amongst the fans I figured I'd draw you a quick preview the layout. There's obviously a lot more cavern locations than the ones labeled but for obvious surprise reasons I've left those off this quick drawing.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


According to RAWA, - "When the planet has a magnetic field they would typically use magnetic north for the zero angle. On planets without a strong magnetic field they would pick a physical point of reference as viewed from the original link-in location to set the angle." This also seems to be backed up by information within the GZ notebooks IIRC.


Yeah your map matches a lot of the maps and concept art I have in my archive in terms of the cavern layout.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:01 pm 
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Okay, I'll go with the idea that the pictures show Ae'gura on the left and the City on the right.

If we run the zero meridian from the stalagmite to the arch, then Aitrus' map is right. Those pictures are showing the City as being between 40 to 45 degrees west of the zero line.

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