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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 6:25 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
Tweek wrote:
larryf58 wrote:
Where did you find a reference for that? Is it available anywhere?


Concept art, and no it's not available anywhere at the moment.


That's not very helpful, then. I'd update my data on that image on my site, but not without some form of evidence that it's real. Again, it doesn't help that they used a generic backdrop for it that they used pretty much anywhere they needed a "cavern" look. As it stands, the reason why I thought it was the pub was because it's overall shape fits what the pub interior looks like. If nothing else, though, I may mention that as a "thought to be".


Actually if you want to see the "concept" art for that its online. Has been for some time before the Opera House was moved off Ae'gura do to sizing down the Island.

http://uru.patchallel.com/images/UruLiv ... lding2.jpg

Tweek wrote:
larryf58 wrote:
Uru (and its sequel, Myst V) is the "reality" that everything else revolves around, so if the books conflict with things that can be observed in the game, then the books must be considered in error.


This is true of Uru but not of Myst 5. Myst 5 was a game made by Cyan from the account of Dr. Watson when he freed the Bahro, thus like the other games there is room for artistic licensing.


I stand corrected. I was mostly thinking of it from the standpoint that all of the Ages in Myst V were originally meant to be part of Uru.[/quote]

All of the ages were substantially changed for Myst V, even Descent went through major revisions. For instance Descent was much more accurate to the books prior to Myst V than any other place. The area was heavily updated for Myst V because it looked better with higher resolution graphics, and to make it a more explorable starting area.

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:08 pm 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
Actually if you want to see the "concept" art for that its online. Has been for some time before the Opera House was moved off Ae'gura do to sizing down the Island.


That small structure doesn't look very much like the building in the opening animation, except that it's round and has a projection on top. I can't really believe that was ever intended to be an opera house. Not unless the performance consisted of two singers and maybe ten audience members. While I'm willing to grant you that there is a chance you're right about the other building being an opera house even without any evidence, this isn't a picture of it.

That picture is one of a set of concept art pieces for the guild hall. The tower you see behind that small outbuilding is the guild hall, which is a free standing building with at least one level below the courtyard around it. That in turn is set atop the tomb of the Great King. The outbuilding is more likely to be a part of the guild hall complex.

The guild hall in that picture never made it into Uru, of course. It was originally going to be on a chopped off stalagmite island somewhere near Tokotah alley and near the waterline, judging by these pictures.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


The small building your picture shows was on the street leading to the guild hall, separated from it by a stalagmite ridge. There was a short tunnel through the ridge, and a bridge to the island on the other side.

ChloeRhodes wrote:
All of the ages were substantially changed for Myst V, even Descent went through major revisions. For instance Descent was much more accurate to the books prior to Myst V than any other place. The area was heavily updated for Myst V because it looked better with higher resolution graphics, and to make it a more explorable starting area.


Descent has at least one major anomaly. In the Book of Ti'ana, the account of the earthquake that damaged the Great Shaft mentions the break in the nara wall of the shaft which caused the long vertical trench we see in Descent. It cuts through the spiral walkway for a number of levels. However, it also mentions that it was repaired because D'ni pride wouldn't let a job be incomplete when they could help it, even if they never planned to use it again. That particular conflict is added to by the fact that there is no sign of the rubble from that collapse at the bottom of the shaft. There would be if it had happened after the Fall. There is also no sign of the thousands of firemarble lamps mentioned in the DRC notes about the Great Shaft. I realize that this flies in the face of my earlier statement that what we seen in Uru has to be considered the correct version, but those observations, among others, make me wonder if the Shaft from Myst V isn't more accurate. It's certainly a more complete model. Descent is rudimentary at best since they only included enough detail and 3-d modelling to look good from a distance.

As for the other Ages, only one was cobbled from whole cloth. Tahgira was made using concepts and textures they had originally planned for Eder Gira II and , IIRC, Venelem. All of the others were Ages that were near completion when the Uru project was shut down, and they just finished them up and changed the way the character interacted with them.

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:15 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:
ChloeRhodes wrote:
Actually if you want to see the "concept" art for that its online. Has been for some time before the Opera House was moved off Ae'gura do to sizing down the Island.


That small structure doesn't look very much like the building in the opening animation, except that it's round and has a projection on top. I can't really believe that was ever intended to be an opera house. Not unless the performance consisted of two singers and maybe ten audience members. While I'm willing to grant you that there is a chance you're right about the other building being an opera house even without any evidence, this isn't a picture of it.


I can tell you for a fact that originally that structure was going to be the opera hall. But here is a clearer view of the lake along side the image Chloe linked to

Image

(ignore the note about fishes on that image :D)

Note the same structure, textures and the pavilion around it matches in both images.

Quote:
That picture is one of a set of concept art pieces for the guild hall. The tower you see behind that small outbuilding is the guild hall, which is a free standing building with at least one level below the courtyard around it. That in turn is set atop the tomb of the Great King. The outbuilding is more likely to be a part of the guild hall complex.

The guild hall in that picture never made it into Uru, of course. It was originally going to be on a chopped off stalagmite island somewhere near Tokotah alley and near the waterline, judging by these pictures.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


The small building your picture shows was on the street leading to the guild hall, separated from it by a stalagmite ridge. There was a short tunnel through the ridge, and a bridge to the island on the other side.


Actually that area was a mockup location (in other views you can see the city/arch in the background across the lake. That entire area was later changed to be the neighbourhood, if you look carefully you can actually see elements of the rock structure that made the transition;

Image

ChloeRhodes wrote:
All of the ages were substantially changed for Myst V, even Descent went through major revisions. For instance Descent was much more accurate to the books prior to Myst V than any other place. The area was heavily updated for Myst V because it looked better with higher resolution graphics, and to make it a more explorable starting area.


Descent has at least one major anomaly. In the Book of Ti'ana, the account of the earthquake that damaged the Great Shaft mentions the break in the nara wall of the shaft which caused the long vertical trench we see in Descent. It cuts through the spiral walkway for a number of levels. However, it also mentions that it was repaired because D'ni pride wouldn't let a job be incomplete when they could help it, even if they never planned to use it again. That particular conflict is added to by the fact that there is no sign of the rubble from that collapse at the bottom of the shaft. There would be if it had happened after the Fall. There is also no sign of the thousands of firemarble lamps mentioned in the DRC notes about the Great Shaft. I realize that this flies in the face of my earlier statement that what we seen in Uru has to be considered the correct version, but those observations, among others, make me wonder if the Shaft from Myst V isn't more accurate. It's certainly a more complete model. Descent is rudimentary at best since they only included enough detail and 3-d modelling to look good from a distance.

As for the other Ages, only one was cobbled from whole cloth. Tahgira was made using concepts and textures they had originally planned for Eder Gira II and , IIRC, Venelem. All of the others were Ages that were near completion when the Uru project was shut down, and they just finished them up and changed the way the character interacted with them.[/quote]

The note about all the firemarble lamps comes from the Book of Atrus not DRC notes. Cyan did have a great deal of Descent done (as originally Uru was known as DIRT and the game was about going from the surface down the tunnels to D'ni). A great deal of that content was not seen in Myst 5, so I can understand where Chloe is coming from there.

Incidentally, Venalem was not a part of EoA, Venalem was still in concept art stage (aside from a few models of the machinery that Thom modeled in Max).


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:43 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
I can tell you for a fact that originally that structure was going to be the opera hall. But here is a clearer view of the lake along side the image Chloe linked to.


Okay. That's evidence. I stand corrected. It's disconnected from the setting around the guild hall, but that's clearly a nearly identical design and the top of it is not the open topped cupola of the Great Tree pub.

Do you have a copy of that image that shows more of the scene? I'd like to have it so that I can write up a page on my site for it.

Tweek wrote:
Incidentally, Venalem was not a part of EoA, Venalem was still in concept art stage (aside from a few models of the machinery that Thom modeled in Max).


That's why I said "concepts". Venalem was going to be a world where the living environments were inside icebergs, and that's the idea they used for Tahgira.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:37 am 
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Carolyn wrote:
I had forgotten how much magnetic north moved (especially over nine and a half thousand years).

For anyone that wants them (according to Wolfram|Alpha; I have no idea how accurate it is), the approximate magnetic declinations for Eddy County:
Leefo 1 0 DE: 61.94°E


I had to make a base assumption that the top of Aitrus' map represented true north as a starting point, but from there:

I used WolframAlpha's calculation of magnetic north in DE 0 to align a compass rose that shows toran directions, which I lifted from a map of the Great Zero Courtyard. I grabbed a KI reading of the farthest edge of the Great Library Courtyard, my notes about the directions of the Great Tree Pub and the neighborhoods, and an estimated direction someone else figured out for K'veer. I used them all on Aitrus' map as closely as I could, and that gave me this:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


The red line is the zero meridian set by the Surveyor's Guild in DE 0. The yellow line is Me'erta's proposed change to it. The red star is the approximate locations of Kirel and Bevin. The yellow star is the approximate line K'veer lies on. The blue star is the approximate location of the Pub. Since I don't have an accurate scale for Aitrus' map, I wasn't able to calculate their distances properly, and had to fake it.

While I freely admit it may be a load of hogwash because it takes three key facts for granted (that the top of the map is true north, that WolframAlpha's calculations are good - and they should be - and that a guesstimate made by another explorer of K'veer's direction in torantee is near to being right), it matches up pretty closely with the previous guesswork based on in-cavern observations.

Oh, this is the azimuth ring I made to figure out directions.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:01 am 
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Isn’t the Great Stair seen sideways clockwise from the Hoods’ telescope? in that case, the hoods should be more to the left of the red line (as in Chloe’s map).

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:56 pm 
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The toran direction for both Bevin and Kirel are about 1° apart, and slightly west of the zero meridian. The view from the balcony telescope is looking just a bit to the right of the Arch, and almost directly up the Great Stairs. Since Bevin is 293' higher than the ferry terminal esplanade, we are looking down on from somewhere near the same height as the top of the Arch.

Bevin's direction is 60265, which is 2,235 torantee west of zero. That's what? About 13°?. Hmm. Yes, I need to move it. Its distance is 2.6 miles from the GZ, which is why I have been guessing that the cavern is 3 miles long by 1 mile wide, roughly.

Okay, the correction's been made on my previously posted map and that changes things. That puts them slightly around that headland east of the City, and means that the cavern is longer and wider than I was previously estimating. Looks like it's closer to 5 or 6 miles long, and about 2 miles wide, maybe. Just goes to show my mental math is garbage.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:05 pm 
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This thread has been quite interesting, I decided to look over and compare all versions of the maps that I have and discovered that whilst there are elements in the maps that vary, there are overall elements that remain.

This is a comparison of the maps that are publicly available (including the map Eleri and Alah provided).

(big image so I put it in a spoiler tag)
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


Now overall the cavern has a "fish" shape, the "tail" (highlighted in pink) and the "jaw" (highlighted in blue) can be seen in each image.

The placement and rotation of Ae'gura fluctuates but is pretty much correct in the image Eleri and Alah provided (and is in the same location as the other maps I have in my possession). Another thing that is consistent is that the City Proper faces Ae'gura and is in a bay like area (this is correlated with concept art from the cavern and other maps). On the two hand drawn maps from the novels you can see the bay exists however it doesn't face Ae'gura due to the difference in placement of the island. Incidentally the location of the City Proper in regards makes more sense in the new maps as opposed to the maps from the novels due to the Great Zero and the rules for building upon it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:43 pm 
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Tweek, Aye, I think the only thing off in the GZ map is the location of K'veer, it should be on the opposite side between Kirel and Bevin. Which may be due to one of the artists that made the age placing the Maintainers marker object in the wrong location in 3dsMax.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 4:00 pm 
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Very nicely done on the correlation of common elements in the maps. That means that true north would be over somewhere by the western edge of of the map marked "the D'ni Cavern", I take it. The red and blue lines on the GZ map are meant to be the directions of Kirel and Bevin, respectively?

On the D'ni Cavern map: The marked location for K'veer doesn't work. From K'veer, the Arch of Kerath is more or less in line with the stalagmite the GZ is on. That restricts the arc it can be in to about 18° off the zero meridian. It pretty much would have to be one of the islands shown in the City harbor.

Other than that, the only problem I see is with the preproduction art, specifically the piece commonly used for backdrops in the game. It shows the Arch with Ae'gura behind it, and the city off to one side at about the same angle we'd been assuming up until now. I'll put the simplified version of it up again for reference.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


Still, your work is making a lot more sense than the other maps that have been shown so far. It really helps that it jibes with the GZ courtyard map.

Darn it, now my estimates for the size of the cavern have been thrown out the window again...!

I'd really appreciate it if you can send me copies of your maps. I'm trying to keep the data on my web site as accurate as I can manage.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 4:24 pm 
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The cavern is supposed to be 6 miles by 10 miles.

No the true north on the map marked "the D'ni Cavern" would be going straight north from where Ae'gura is located (in the north direction as that map notates) through the City Proper. If you look at the original map Eleri posted it does have a N in the top right corner denoting the north direction, however they rotated the map to fit in the books pages. In my image I have rotated it 90 degrees CCW which would be the correct placement.

Yes, as far as I can tell on "the D'ni Cavern map" K'veer is in the wrong location. It should be past the west side of Ae'gura (as Chloe mentions).

As for that view of the cavern you are talking about, (I'm sure I mentioned this in an earlier post) but that view is from DIRT, when the players arrived into the Cavern via the south entrance that was the view they saw. Now in terms of Cavern layout that view is incorrect (you'd be seeing the back/south side of Ae'gura and Katha Island if you really came in to the Cavern that way) but I can appreciate why Cyan used that view, it's a grand majestic "welcome to D'ni" view which is a nice payoff for making your way down the tunnels.

Given the cavern layout here is where you'd have to roughly be in order to get that view (note I used Eleri's map which has the placement of K'veer in the wrong place), unfortunately KI coordinates are not really too reliable for location placement, they are often hit or miss.

Image

As for my maps, publicly available ones can be found online via Google. The other maps I have acquired over the years I don't have permission to release at this time sorry.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 5:47 pm 
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Tweek wrote:
The cavern is supposed to be 6 miles by 10 miles.


Okay, I'll take your word for it, since trying to figure out a scale and measure it myself would be a horror I'd rather not face. :P

Tweek wrote:
No the true north on the map marked "the D'ni Cavern" would be going straight north from where Ae'gura is located (in the north direction as that map notates) through the City Proper. If you look at the original map Eleri posted it does have a N in the top right corner denoting the north direction, however they rotated the map to fit in the books pages. In my image I have rotated it 90 degrees CCW which would be the correct placement.


D'ni was not oriented to true north, it was oriented to magnetic north. Magnetic north and true north only match by coincidence; the difference not only varies by where you are when you measure it, but also by the date.

When drawing or reading a D'ni map, there is a very big difference between D'ni "north" and true north. True north has a very specific meaning; it's the direction to the north pole of planetary rotation, as opposed to magnetic north. Magnetic north is where the planet's northern pole of magnetism is at any given time, and it constantly moves, a phenomenon called polar drift. The D'ni never knew what direction true north was, because they didn't have any contact with the surface. There was no way for them to calculate it. D'ni north is a hair under 62° east of true north, since that was the direction of magnetic north when D'ni was founded.

That's a problem that real world map reading has to deal with too, because the difference between the two directions, called declination, changes and has to be accounted for when matching a map to a compass heading. The current rate of polar drift is around 55 to 60 kilometers yearly. I was trained in map reading when I was in the Army long before the days of GPS navigation, so I have experience with it and never forget that maps and compasses are not linked to each other at all.

Tweek wrote:
As for that view of the cavern you are talking about, (I'm sure I mentioned this in an earlier post) but that view is from DIRT, when the players arrived into the Cavern via the south entrance that was the view they saw. Now in terms of Cavern layout that view is incorrect (you'd be seeing the back/south side of Ae'gura and Katha Island if you really came in to the Cavern that way) but I can appreciate why Cyan used that view, it's a grand majestic "welcome to D'ni" view which is a nice payoff for making your way down the tunnels.

Given the cavern layout here is where you'd have to roughly be in order to get that view (note I used Eleri's map which has the placement of K'veer in the wrong place), unfortunately KI coordinates are not really too reliable for location placement, they are often hit or miss.


I'll agree to disagree with you on that one. I believe that Ki coordinates are meant to be exactly as advertised, and have not yet seen a real reason to disbelieve it.

The point I'm trying to make about the view in the preprodution art is this: In the view you see, you're looking at the Great Arch with the central stalagmite behind it. Trace a line from the peak of that stalagmite through the arch, and the extended line passes to the east of the city. Even on the D'ni Cavern map you posted, that line at best traces to the eastern edge of the city. Your illustration shows it too; from the POV you marked, you'd be seeing the arch almost side on, and the stalagmite isn't in the shot at all.

Still, it's a minor quibble just for the sake of discussion. That backdrop is always placed in models where it's not intended to be seen clearly or at all. The only place where it is clearly visible is a brief panorama in the opening animation, and that's fogged over.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:18 pm 
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Larry, why do you assume that the library on Ae'gura is the "Great Library" that Me'erta based his GZ line on?

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:34 pm 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
Larry, why do you assume that the library on Ae'gura is the "Great Library" that Me'erta based his GZ line on?


Because I've seen at least one map of Ae'gura that showed the zero meridian running along the west edge. It's been awhile, so I don't remember exactly where or when. It was notable enough that I've never forgotten it.

Also, as far as I know the Great Library on Ae'gura is the only one called that. Only two other libraries are specifically mentioned anywhere; the Common Library for the lower classes in the City, and the Common Library for the upper classes in J'taeri that Gehn raided for blank books.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:14 pm 
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larryf58 wrote:

D'ni was not oriented to true north, it was oriented to magnetic north. Magnetic north and true north only match by coincidence; the difference not only varies by where you are when you measure it, but also by the date.

When drawing or reading a D'ni map, there is a very big difference between D'ni "north" and true north. True north has a very specific meaning; it's the direction to the north pole of planetary rotation, as opposed to magnetic north. Magnetic north is where the planet's northern pole of magnetism is at any given time, and it constantly moves, a phenomenon called polar drift. The D'ni never knew what direction true north was, because they didn't have any contact with the surface. There was no way for them to calculate it. D'ni north is a hair under 62° east of true north, since that was the direction of magnetic north when D'ni was founded.

That's a problem that real world map reading has to deal with too, because the difference between the two directions, called declination, changes and has to be accounted for when matching a map to a compass heading. The current rate of polar drift is around 55 to 60 kilometers yearly. I was trained in map reading when I was in the Army long before the days of GPS navigation, so I have experience with it and never forget that maps and compasses are not linked to each other at all.


That's my bad I said true north I actually meant magnetic north I got my terms mixed up.

larryf58 wrote:
Tweek wrote:
As for that view of the cavern you are talking about, (I'm sure I mentioned this in an earlier post) but that view is from DIRT, when the players arrived into the Cavern via the south entrance that was the view they saw. Now in terms of Cavern layout that view is incorrect (you'd be seeing the back/south side of Ae'gura and Katha Island if you really came in to the Cavern that way) but I can appreciate why Cyan used that view, it's a grand majestic "welcome to D'ni" view which is a nice payoff for making your way down the tunnels.

Given the cavern layout here is where you'd have to roughly be in order to get that view (note I used Eleri's map which has the placement of K'veer in the wrong place), unfortunately KI coordinates are not really too reliable for location placement, they are often hit or miss.


I'll agree to disagree with you on that one. I believe that Ki coordinates are meant to be exactly as advertised, and have not yet seen a real reason to disbelieve it.

The point I'm trying to make about the view in the preprodution art is this: In the view you see, you're looking at the Great Arch with the central stalagmite behind it. Trace a line from the peak of that stalagmite through the arch, and the extended line passes to the east of the city. Even on the D'ni Cavern map you posted, that line at best traces to the eastern edge of the city. Your illustration shows it too; from the POV you marked, you'd be seeing the arch almost side on, and the stalagmite isn't in the shot at all.

Still, it's a minor quibble just for the sake of discussion. That backdrop is always placed in models where it's not intended to be seen clearly or at all. The only place where it is clearly visible is a brief panorama in the opening animation, and that's fogged over.


For example, aside from Kirel, all neighbourhoods have the same KI coordinates, yet all neighbourhoods are not in the same singular point in the Cavern (despite what some continue to believe hoods are not instances) there are multiple hoods around the cavern walls that the DRC slowly restored before opening to public use. Not to mention there are examples that place locations

Another point that KI coordinates are not right I shall quote you from earlier in this thread

larryf58 wrote:
The KI navigation reading for the lower platform in the Er'cana Silo in Ashem'en is (direction) 1,912 torans, (distance) 1,562 shahfeetee, and (elevation) -164 shahfeetee. That’s a distance of four miles, or 6.3 kilometers, east by southeast from the Great Zero, and lower than the lake level around the island, which is about -94 shahfeetee;[...]


As Alah pointed out, Uran/Ashemen Silo was to feed the lake and wouldn't be 50 spans below the shoreline. Whilst the cavern may not be level the lake water certainly would be.

In regards to the preproduction image. I mentioned in my above post the location in the cavern you would "roughly" have to be to get the mentioned view. It is not exact (as I said, roughly) but also the image is from DIRT (which predates Uru) and isn't a coherent view of the cavern to begin with and certainly not if you're coming from the south gate to which you wouldn't even see the arch only the back side of Ae'gura and Katha Island (well and a few other island scattered around). When they created the backdrop for Ae'gura (the skydome if you will) they cut out the Ae'gura part, kept the City Proper part and mirrored it so they could have it repeat and look like a busy cavern wall. I did the exact same thing with a high res/textured version of the preproduction artwork I had in order to create a higher res cavern skydome which you can see here:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
Image


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