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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:24 pm 
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Tweek wrote:

Another point that KI coordinates are not right I shall quote you from earlier in this thread

larryf58 wrote:
The KI navigation reading for the lower platform in the Er'cana Silo in Ashem'en is (direction) 1,912 torans, (distance) 1,562 shahfeetee, and (elevation) -164 shahfeetee. That’s a distance of four miles, or 6.3 kilometers, east by southeast from the Great Zero, and lower than the lake level around the island, which is about -94 shahfeetee;[...]


As Alah pointed out, Uran/Ashemen Silo was to feed the lake and wouldn't be 50 spans below the shoreline. Whilst the cavern may not be level the lake water certainly would be.

Theoretically, Uran/Ashemen could be located within its own smaller cavern off the main cavern. So this could be why its location is lower than the lake, but still feed into the lake itself.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:14 pm 
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Yes, Chloe. The "lake" is a water system, not just the body of water in the D'ni cavern. Why can I say that? Because there is a lake with the orange light algae in the only other cavern we get a look at: Rudenna.

When you jump out of the bahro cave where you collect the wedges, you're in Rudenna cavern, one of the four major residential caverns that have names. They consist of D'ni, Irrat, Rolep and Rudenna. I'm not sure what the South Gate cavern was used for, as it's not mentioned in the list. While falling into Rudenna, you can see it has a lake with water that is identical to D'ni's.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking they are jumping into the D'ni cavern from the bahro cave, but that's not correct. While the cave's KI data is blanked out in MOULa, in the offline version you can open your KI and it will tell you where you are, although it doesn't have a coordinate.

There's another peculiarity that shows the pervasiveness of the water system. The Great Zero's neutrino collector outside the calibration chamber has a pond with the orange algae in it, despite being about 93 and a half shahfeetee above the lake.

It makes me wonder if there is some sort of water recirculating system in D'ni. It would make a lot of sense if there were, and would settle the whole "how do you feed all the algae in several caverns by dropping pellets in one spot" question. It's known that there was a air circulation system, after all.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 1:17 pm 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
Theoretically, Uran/Ashemen could be located within its own smaller cavern off the main cavern. So this could be why its location is lower than the lake, but still feed into the lake itself.


Aye but it's in the City Proper.

Yes Rudenna has water like the Cavern, the D'ni have drilled through and opened up many such caverns throughout their history. Most likely the waters are all connected to the central lake too given that they relied heavily on boat/ferry transport to get around.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 1:50 pm 
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Ashem'en is in the City Proper? If that's what you meant, it's incorrect.

Uran, the original name of the district, was deliberately built a long way away from the City Proper because it was used for the importation of goods from other Ages, and they wanted to control the spread of any diseases that might be brought in by accident. It's located four miles (six point three kilometers) east by southeast from the GZ. Here's a quote from the article I wrote about it in my site.

In DE 5312, a disease broke out in the industrial district of Nehw'eril, which had been built near the city of D'ni sometime around the DE 2800s during the reign of King Needrah. It served as an importation center for most of the goods and resources from other Ages. The disease had most likely originated from the Age of Yasafe. Yasafe was mostly forest, and provided the D'ni with a large portion of its wood supply, including an expensive and rare luxury wood called Yema. The outbreak caused widespread panic as many predicted another plague similar to the Pento Plague of the 2100s. Fortunately, the illness was not nearly as lethal as the Pento Plague, and the Guild of Healers quickly found a cure. Regardless, the incident sparked a push to separate the industrial districts from the city. The reigning king, Me'emen, apparently liked the idea and encouraged the Surveyors to begin looking for stable locations to construct new industrial districts.

In 5359 DE, the D'ni received another reason to begin major expansion in the form of Stone Tooth. It was the second of the Great Excavation Machines, and was much more powerful and technically advanced than the first Great Excavator, Stone Eater. Me'emen immediately ordered the Guild of Miners to use both Stone Eater and Stone Tooth to begin clearing an area for a new industrial district to replace Nehw'eril, but it was not until 5475 DE that actual construction was begun on the new industrial district, which was named Uran. Uran began operating in the year 5500 DE (2156 BC), having been built far enough from the city to insure adequate safety when importing goods from other Ages.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:27 pm 
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Yeah I got Uran and Nehw'eril mixed up.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:33 pm 
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Location: Hanging around with mermaids. And still looking for the elusive Funky Bahro.
It does seem odd that an Age connected to the lake in Ae'gura like Ashem'em is instanced.

There must be a very interesting IC explanation for this. (Yeah, yeah, I know: Yeesha Magic.)

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:52 pm 
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TOOO wrote:
It does seem odd that an Age connected to the lake in Ae'gura like Ashem'em is instanced.

There must be a very interesting IC explanation for this. (Yeah, yeah, I know: Yeesha Magic.)


Uran isn't an age first of all. (When talking about places in the cavern I've always taken to calling them Cavern Locations. Cavern Areas or just Areas. Ages are wholly different as they are actual different worlds within the Myst universe.)

Ideally, instancing and linking in the game would work this way - When you link from an age thats in a public location, the city, hoods or through a linking book in an age, your taken to the public instance of that age every time. Meaning that whenever you link through a book, say in the library, and someone else links in after you, your both taken to the same age. However at the same time, a book is added to your shelf in Relto that is private. Meaning if you want to be alone in that age, Yeesha has given you the option of being so by providing you with an instanced version of that age. This however should only apply to ages and never to cavern locations which are always public. Finally if you want to invite someone to your age, they have to use your book on Relto, at which point a link is added to their Nexus to your version of that age.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:58 pm 
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It's just one of those things, like the fact that although technically the neighborhoods should all have their own coordinates and appearances, in practice they are all instances of Bevin and have exactly the same physical location.

In the case of the neighborhoods, it comes down to the fact that if they tried to make them all separate, they'd have to create a program to generate a different model and coordinate set each time one is needed, and the servers would get overloaded by the sheer number of different hoods after a few years. As it stands now, they can generate them automatically just by having different features turned on or off in the same model.

I don't know why they didn't make the Silo a public space instead of instancing it, but I'm guessing that there's a programming issue involved. What kind of issue is beyond me, since I'm no programmer.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Ok...instancing...

Ashemen is instanced from a game play perspective, much like dungeons and raids in WoW are instanced. Private Ages in Uru (each player having their own Eder Kemo for example) is the same, game play mechanic.

Relto...is a grey area, it is possible it's instanced for game play mechanics but given Yeesha it is also possible she created Links to thousands of different "true" instances of Relto.

"True" instances, this is something that follows the concept of the Great Tree of Possibility. All Ages exist, all variants of those Ages exist. Age 37 from the Book of Atrus is a prime example of this. When Gehn and Atrus first start hanging out on the Age they are in instance "A". When Gehn makes heavy changes and Atrus goes back and finds the natives do not recognize him, he is now in instance "B" another branch on the Great Tree. It's like an alternate reality where everything is the same but you've got red hair instead of brown or something.

Uru kind of muddies the water somewhat with people taking instances like all players having their own Eder Kemo as that being the case if Uru was real (in otherwords trying to IC gameplay instancing instead of "true" instancing). Eder Kemo is a public Age Written by the D'ni there would be only one instance of it. If someone was to make huge changes to the Eder Kemo Book you'd be in another instance (ala Age 37), or if someone copied the Eder Kemo book into a brand new one word for word you'd be in a different Eder Kemo. Even though everything looks the same (although it could be argued if you Wrote a copy of the Eder Kemo Book everything would be the same except for the structures built by the D'ni like the path and what not, they wouldn't be in the Age).

Certainly it could be said Yeesha waves her hand and gave us "true" instances of Eder Kemo and the other Ages, but it's obvious it's a gameplay mechanic so that everyone can solve the puzzles (instead of getting into Uru 5 years later and Kadish is already solved).


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 5:10 pm 
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Good explanation.

There is a mechanic in place to explain the quest Age instancing: Yeesha's graffiti. Just about every Age she used in the Path of the Hand has her monogram stamped in it somewhere, sometimes in several places, with Eder Kemo being the worst of the lot. This implies that Yeesha got hold of the descriptive books for those Ages and modified them. So the idea that she would have set up every linking book she hands out to explorers to link to closely related parallel versions of those Ages isn't out of the question.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 5:19 pm 
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Entirely possible, I can't say I've ever looked at it that way I always saw it as she's tagging the Ages so those who follow her path know they're on it and looking in the right places kind of thing.

That said, the idea falls apart when you look to the Ages she hasn't left her mark on.

Did she leave marks in Gahreesen and Teledahn? I can't remember seeing them there (could be wrong it's been a while since I've played). I know Kadish Tolesa only got one after Path of the Shell was released, and I have a feeling Gira has one inside a cave but I'm not 100% certain on that.

[edit]

Yeah Gira doesn't have one (Kemo likely does because originally there was only 1 Bahro door which was in Kemo, but they changed it to 4 to make a single player game).

Ah yes, Teledahn has one in the slave cages.

And it would appear Gahreesen doesn't have one either.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 6:16 pm 
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That some of the Ages do not have her monogram doesn't really detract from the idea. The fact that she did in some means that she could well have modified them all and just not tagged the others.

Kemo has five tags. The floor of the link in gazebo is one big Yeesha monogram, and she put one on each face of the stone that's in the middle of the path branching off to the floating sculpture and the puffer garden.

Gahreesen doesn't seem to have one, but then Yeesha seemed to have a problem with authority. I can't see her being comfortable hanging around in what amounts to a very big police station. :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 1:46 am 
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On a side note:
Maybe everyone that did inspect Gahreesen saw something that was so ugly that they turned their backs trying not to see the wrong that was done to the Bahro. ( that was revealed in Myst 5 )

Here a an image found in a Gahreesen in a post at the GoM a long time ago ( with a little description )...
http://www.guildofmessengers.com/en/for ... ment-12900


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 2:35 am 
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Artic_Wagon wrote:
On a side note:
Maybe everyone that did inspect Gahreesen saw something that was so ugly that they turned their backs trying not to see the wrong that was done to the Bahro. ( that was revealed in Myst 5 )


Okay, let's nip this one in the bud.

The odds that those bones belonged to a Bahro are very, very low. First off, we know for certain that Bahro could link to the prison level on Gahreesen. It's how you get there in the first place. Secondly, those bones are identical to those found in the prison cell in Teledahn, and we know that those are not Bahro either. The Bahro themselves drew clues to that in their Teledahn petroglyph in Eder Kemo. Those bones belonged to a non-human race that had a completely different body structure and feet, and the Bahro drew their footprints in the petroglyph.

Also, before we can cry about the poor non-human left to die behind bars... there's a human skeleton a few corridors over. The sad fact was that the Fall didn't leave the Maintainers time to free anyone from those cells before they were wiped out themselves.

There is no reference to Bahro in any D'ni records. The closest to one that exists is a hint of a D'ni sub-class called the Least, and we don't even know if that referred to Bahro. "The least" is a term Yeesha applied to them because she was using terms from Words of the Watcher to describe them. We also do not know if those terms from Words applied to the Bahro; it may very well have been Yeesha making them fit because that's how she wanted it.

What do we know about the Bahro? They were bound to D'ni. Were they slaves? Yes, in that they were not free to go where they pleased and do as they pleased. Did the average D'ni know about them? Almost certainly not. The D'ni were religiously and philosophically opposed to slavery, and those who engaged in it were harshly punished when caught. Manesmo, the last owner of Teledahn, was under investigation by the Maintainers for that exact reason just before the Fall.

What were the Bahro bound for? After much reading on the subject, it appears to be a pretty simple thing. Transportation. The Bahro had abilities to link that surpassed that of the D'ni.

D'ni linking had limitations. To pass through a linking book, organic material backed by living tissue had to touch the panel. You could be wearing cloth or leather gloves, but that's about it. If you wanted to move a table through, as an example, you had to carry the table and touch the book with some part of your body. You couldn't shove the table into contact with the book and have it link. Nor could you pack things into a cargo vehicle and link with it; you'd link and the vehicle would stay behind.

That meant that you were restricted to linking with what you could carry. One workaround for that was to pack a load on a beast of burden and touch the book's linking panel to some part of the animal. Even then, you were limited to what the animal could bear.

Then the Bahro were discovered. They could link without the need for books, and the loads they could take with them were much larger than any beast of burden the D'ni had. Someone, probably very high up in the D'ni government, found a way to bind them and did so. That fact was very likely to have been a state secret buried so deep that the rest of the government didn't have a clue, much less the citizens of D'ni. That's why there were no records of them in any document the DRC ever found. The Bahro were bound to serve, and had no hope of ever leaving that servitude.

Were they abused in any way? Probably not. There isn't any proof of it, other than Yeesha taking a lot of disconnected events and twisting them to imply it. Every time I've researched those events, it turned out to be someone else that was the victim. Their despair was not over physical suffering, but rather from a sense of hopelessness that they'd ever be free of the bond that was imposed on them. Were the D'ni the depraved monsters Yeesha paints them as? Absolutely not. The average D'ni was a decent, highly religious and moral person. They had criminals just like any society does, but they strove to find and punish those criminals just as any society that tries to provide a safe place for its members to live and raise families would.

You don't have to take my word for it, though. The notebooks are there for you to read, and the Bahro were a lot more honest than Yeesha was. Study the Bahro pictographs with an open mind, and read the historical accounts the DRC has translated. Together, they paint a very different picture of D'ni.

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b'tagamem mot seKem ril ge'Dan Kenen reKElen faex b'sEnem ge'Dan -- lårE leDA
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3 # 11308
The Lost Library of D'ni


Last edited by larryf58 on Thu May 14, 2015 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:13 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
...Yeesha's graffiti. Just about every Age she used in the Path of the Hand has her monogram stamped in it somewhere, sometimes in several places, with Eder Kemo being the worst of the lot...

A very interesting conversation here!

On something of a side note, by my count, Teledahn takes first place for Yeesha graffiti. To be fair, beyond the prison cell flooring, the others are much harder to spot. After I first noticed them, it took quite a bit of enhancing and general sleuthing before I concluded that they were Yeesha symbols rather than something else. My confusion stemmed from the absence of her name from its usual place in the center. :)

Details follow. If you want to hunt them down on your own, don't peek!

[Reveal] Spoiler: The one we all know about
Image

[Reveal] Spoiler: These are the more hidden ones
[Reveal] Spoiler: The bin outside the hut
Image

[Reveal] Spoiler: The hopper underneath the hut
Image

[Reveal] Spoiler: The elevator box
Image

[Reveal] Spoiler: The binge graffiti on the stairs
Image

It wouldn't surprise me if there are more examples of this I haven't yet found. ;)

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