It is currently Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:51 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:53 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:46 pm
Posts: 847
Location: The Cleft, New Mexico
Shorah all,

I had an interesting conversation recently with another explorer who had discovered some fascinating work that was once being discussed on the D'ni Linguistic Fellowship forums. Sadly, the DLF is now pretty much extinct and their records are only partially available via the Wayback Machine. However, this particular topic may be of interest to explorers at large, so I thought I'd "throw it out there" and see what everyone thinks.

It seems that they were starting to make some inroads in translating the Bahro writing (or bahroglyphics as opposed to the Bahro murals we are more familiar with, known as bahroglyphs). Only the first two pages of the discussion have survived on the Wayback Machine, but for those who are interested, here's a link to the first page.

So my question to fellow explorers at large is whether there is any interest in continuing this work. I've already asked KathAveara to poll the D'ni Language Lessons students and it sounded as though there is some interest in that quarter. I'm guessing that we'd need to scour the known Ages for samples of Bahro writing so we can gather a thorough photographic record. This kind of work could be done by pretty much anyone with an interest or inclination to pitch in and could be as short or long in time commitment as one might desire.

Doing the hard work of the actual translations would have to fall to experts/enthusiasts of the linguistic persuasion (of which I am not a member ;) ), but it seems to me that the rest of us folk could contribute easily in other ways, such as documenting where the bahroglyphics are located along with any significant contextual information, getting photos taken and/or drawings made, etc.

Any code-breaking enthusiasts out there??

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:41 pm
Posts: 803
Location: A Galaxy Far Far Away
Ainia wrote:
Shorah all,

I had an interesting conversation recently with another explorer who had discovered some fascinating work that was once being discussed on the D'ni Linguistic Fellowship forums. Sadly, the DLF is now pretty much extinct and their records are only partially available via the Wayback Machine. However, this particular topic may be of interest to explorers at large, so I thought I'd "throw it out there" and see what everyone thinks.

If anyone wants to send me the info (for any Uru site that is going down), I will put the info on the Guild of Sleepers forum.
If the Guild of Sleepers forum were to ever shut down permanently (as I write this, that is NOT going to happen) I would make everything we have available to others to host.
I would not let the info be lost (as others have allowed with their websites).
Alien

_________________
Equal among others in the Guild Of Sleepers


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:11 pm 
Unfortunately, this doesn't help the DLF much. The only way to get information from the site is to trawl through the thousands of links until you find what you're looking for.

Getting back on topic, is there any interest out there?


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:38 pm
Posts: 1669
I'd love to find out more about the Bahro. :) They're such a mystery! Any little thing that we could find out about them would go miles towards figuring out what makes them act the way they do. ^u^

_________________
A-Xros Time and Space Stories | Entering Skyrim


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: bahroglyphs
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:52 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:29 pm
Posts: 297
Location: california
I don't know if I have any helpful skills but in honor of the noted bearer of my name I feel obliged to volunteer to help anyone who can move this forward.(':)')

_________________
I'll look that up BRB


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:11 am 
Thanks for showing an interest, Ventris! And so long as you can run around Uru and take pictures, you do have skills that are useful, since the first stage would be finding every glyph.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:22 pm
Posts: 560
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Requested news post is up, and can be found here:

http://www.guildofmessengers.com/en/con ... expedition

_________________
KI# 00071084 | "The truth speaks for itself, I am just the messenger." -Lyta Alexander
Image
(Note: Any comments or opinions, taken whole or in part, are mine and do not reflect the stance of GoMe.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:24 pm 
Thanks, Nev'yn!


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:42 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:46 pm
Posts: 847
Location: The Cleft, New Mexico
Shorah everyone,

Although it has been quiet here for a while, I have been by no means idle! In addition to collecting some images of the bahroglyphics in the Ages, I have restarted an old project of ireenquench from back when the D'ni Linguistic Foundation was active. There are some very interesting old discussions on the Wayback Machine from those times: page 1, page 2, page 3, page 4. And here's a link to the video ireenquench took of the Bahro in Noloben as he reacted to the symbol discussed on page 1 of the DLF conversation.

I have captured some videos of my experiments with Bahro responses to various symbols on the Age slates for Noloben, Todelmer, Taghira and Laki'ahn with some *very* interesting results! I am barely scratching the surface for this research, starting with a focus on Noloben. I've been using five different symbols, testing the Bahro responses within Noloben and within Laki'ahn. I am using the results from a known symbol, rain, as a baseline of sorts and then tabulating results for four new symbols.

[Reveal] Spoiler: Here are the five symbols tested, with two variants, for a total of seven symbols assessed for Noloben thus far
Image

[Reveal] Spoiler: Here are the two Age slates I have used for my testing thus far
Image

[Reveal] Spoiler: And here is a summary grid of my data so far
Image

Edit:
[Reveal] Spoiler: An updated summary grid of my data so far, as of 04 Jul 2013
Image

As you can see in the grid, I am starting by focusing on all the permutations for Noloben-related variables. Following is a breakdown of the results so far.

I began by testing a known symbol for Noloben within two different Ages, which gave me some baseline information.

Rain symbol

  • [Reveal] Spoiler: The rain symbol is a known data point thanks to Dr. Watson's quest back in 2004-2005
    Image
  • Noloben slate used in Noloben Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by summoning rain successfully
  • Laki'ahn slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by returning the slate to the pedestal
  • Noloben slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by attempting to summon rain, without success CORRECTION: with success in Noloben
  • This symbol appears to be recognized in all slate/Age combinations
  • The recognition behavior appears to be contextual, with the Noloben slate triggering rain summoning behavior, and the Laki'ahn slate triggering the return of the slate to its pedestal

Symbol #1

  • [Reveal] Spoiler: The symbol described by Nick as observed by Nick and Sharper in Negilahn back when the indigenous animals there were being systematically wiped out
    Image
  • [Reveal] Spoiler: The mirrored Bahro symbol for 8 was being discussed and researched at the DLF as it bore a strong resemblance to the symbol Nick described
    Image
  • [Reveal] Spoiler: The Bahro symbol for 8 as seen in Noloben on the rotating pedestals
    Image
  • Noloben slate used in Noloben Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by cowering in fear
  • Laki'ahn slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro appears confused by the symbol and reacts by scratching his head
  • Noloben slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by shaking his arm and linking away
  • The recognition behavior for this symbol appears to be highly contextual; in this instance it seems to be understood only in the context of Noloben, with a complete Noloben context resulting in a fear response and a partial Noloben context resulting in a mildly agitated (?) response
  • It's worth pointing out that the DLF video done by ireenquench was testing for the Bahro 8 symbol, rather than the mirrored symbol which I tested here; I have yet to test the Bahro 8 symbol for myself
  • I am assuming that for now, the Bahro response is identical for both the 8 and the mirrored 8, which presents another complexity of the Bahro language; it appears that some symbols are understood in mirrored and non-mirrored forms
  • [Reveal] Spoiler: Mirrored bahroglyphics are readily observed in Bahro architecture; here is an example from the Keep pedestal bases
    Image

Symbol #2, partial
  • [Reveal] Spoiler: The alignment symbol on the Noloben rotating pedestals; since it was difficult to tell if the long vertical line was part of the symbol itself, I started by testing the symbol without that line
    Image
  • Noloben slate used in Noloben Age: The Bahro appears confused by the symbol and reacts by scratching his head
  • Laki'ahn slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro appears confused by the symbol and reacts by scratching his head
  • Noloben slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro appears confused by the symbol and reacts by scratching his head
  • This symbol appears usually to be confusing in all slate/Age combinations, though there were a couple of times when the Bahro appeared to recognize the abbreviated symbol and react with fear; this makes it difficult to be sure which response is correct, though in the majority of tests, the Bahro response was of confusion
  • Because most of the responses were of confusion, the next step was to test the same symbol and including the vertical alignment line

Symbol #2, full

  • Noloben slate used in Noloben Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by cowering in fear
  • Laki'ahn slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro appears confused by the symbol and reacts by scratching his head
  • Noloben slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by cowering in fear
  • This symbol appears to be recognized readily as long as it is presented with the Noloben slate
  • Again, the recognition behavior appears to be contextual, in this instance it seems to be understood only in the context of Noloben

Symbol #3
  • [Reveal] Spoiler: This symbol was found in at least two locations in Noloben; here it is found on the exterior laboratory walls
    Image
  • [Reveal] Spoiler: It is also seen along the slate borders
    Image
  • Noloben slate used in Noloben Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and responds by moving the slate to the pedestal atop the Noloben laboratory roof
  • Laki'ahn slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro appears confused by the symbol and reacts by scratching his head
  • Noloben slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and responds by moving the slate to the pedestal atop the Noloben laboratory roof
  • As with Symbol 2, this symbol appears to be recognized readily as long as it is presented with the Noloben slate
  • As before, the recognition behavior appears to be contextual, in this instance it seems to be understood only in the context of Noloben
  • [Reveal] Spoiler: Symbol 3 is treated as if it is synonymous with the known Bahro symbol for the Noloben laboratory rooftop
    Image

Symbol #4, partial
  • [Reveal] Spoiler: The Minkata symbol isn't seen in Noloben but because of its strong resemblance to Symbol 1, I decided to test it; I started with the completed symbol as seen floating in Minkata
    Image
  • Noloben slate used in Noloben Age: The Bahro appears confused by the symbol and reacts by scratching his head
  • Laki'ahn slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro appears confused by the symbol and reacts by scratching his head
  • Noloben slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro appears confused by the symbol and reacts by scratching his head
  • This symbol appears to be confusing in all slate/Age combinations
  • Because the responses were of confusion, the next step was to test the same symbol as drawn on the Minkata stelae

Symbol #4, full

  • [Reveal] Spoiler: The Minkata stelae show this symbol with a surrounding circle
    Image
  • Noloben slate used in Noloben Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by linking away immediately
  • Laki'ahn slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by linking away immediately
  • Noloben slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by linking away immediately
  • This symbol appears to be recognized in all slate/Age combinations
  • The response also appears to be universal, with the Bahro linking away immediately (perhaps to Minkata?)

So far, there are numerous different Bahro responses to slate images: puzzlement, fear, and several recognition responses. Also, it seems the Bahro respond to symbols contextually. For instance, a Noloben-specific symbol must be written on the Noloben slate; if it is written on any other slate, the Bahro is puzzled. And interestingly, a Bahro will respond to a Noloben symbol on a Noloben slate in a different Age (e.g. Laki'ahn). Again, context appears to be important to communication with the Bahro.

And there are implications that mirroring of symbols plays an important part in Bahro writing, though there is far too little data to even begin speculation about how this might work and what it might mean.

Additionally, it appears there are some universal symbols for the Bahro, to which they will react identically no matter what slate is used and where it is used. Thus I am getting the feeling that the Bahro language is complex, that some symbols make sense only in the proper context, else they are "gibberish".

With some of the reactions I've recorded, it's possible to make some rough guesses about meaning; and so far, I've found at least two new symbols that the Bahro react to as if they are other known symbols (one of which is discussed here, Symbol 3). Although I'm not willing to assume such symbols are synonymous just yet, I believe they offer some important clues about the Bahro written language and meaning.

As can be seen, the above is a bare beginning to this research; it could take years to test all the bahroglyphics that are documented thus far. Thoroughness requires that each test be repeated a number of times to ensure the Bahro response is consistent and to ensure the intended symbol is written in a form the Bahro can recognize. My track record for getting the symbols into a recognizable form for the Bahro is less than stellar (meaning, when attempting to draw known symbols in known Ages on the correct slate, I frequently got the puzzled response and had to redraw a number of times before the Bahro understood my chicken scratches!).

I would dearly love to see other explorers pitching in here! The testing itself is fairly straightforward and easy enough to do. Careful records must be kept. Photographs of the testing will do though videos are even better! Even with the initial symbol set documented above, completely testing the slates and Ages would require hundreds of different tests! But these data are priceless for building our information repository toward translating the Bahro language and eventually becoming proficient in communicating with them.

Is there a show of hands? Volunteers out there??

_________________
ImageImage


Last edited by Ainia on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:01 pm 
Whelp, you can count me in!


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:33 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:46 pm
Posts: 847
Location: The Cleft, New Mexico
Shorah again,

I had a bit of time earlier and headed back to Noloben to test a theory...

In my earlier report, I'd said that although the Bahro attempted to summon rain in Laki'ahn, he was unsuccessful. However, that is *not* the case! :o He is successful in summoning rain for Noloben while in Laki'ahn!! Here's the video:

Rain symbol

  • Noloben slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by summoning rain successfully for Noloben
  • The Bahro is able to interact with an Age from a distance, when he is in another Age entirely

This has *enormous* implications!!! :shock: Apparently, the Bahro can remotely influence Ages across the multi-verse. That is, they don't have to be physically within an Age in order to interact with it.

While I was at it, I tested the Bahro "8" symbol, the same bahroglyphic that ireenquench videotaped. Here are those results:

Symbol #5

  • [Reveal] Spoiler: The bahroglyphic for the number 8
    Image
  • Noloben slate used in Noloben Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by cowering in fear
  • Laki'ahn slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by cowering in fear
  • Noloben slate used in Laki'ahn Age: The Bahro recognizes the symbol and reacts by cowering in fear
  • The recognition pattern is very similar to that for the mirrored 8 symbol, though the 8 symbol is recognized in all combinations of Ages and slates (whereas the mirrored 8 was recognized only when drawn on the Noloben slate)

From my tests so far with symbol 5, it appears that the "8" bahroglyphic is more universally fearful than the mirrored 8 bahroglyphic. Perhaps the "8" was co-opted by the Twisted Faction as the symbol of their rebellion... which could imply that the meaning of "8" in the Bahro language is about far more than a mere numeral...

More food for thought!! :D

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:41 am 
The '8' symbol was always referred to as 'correspondant-to-8', as it corresponds to a pattern of circles and lines that is the logical 8th in the series.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SEMrush [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron