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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:32 am 
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So, I just went back and did Kadish Tolesa again. Now, it's been a long time.

I need a logical explanation of how the four-pillars puzzle is solved by looking at the diagram in the Gallery. I know the solution is:

1st pillar: 1 pull
2nd pillar: 4 pulls
3rd pillar: 1 pull
4th pillar: 2 pulls

NOTE: I solved it this time with the help of a walkthrough.

Now, when I look at the diagram in the Gallery, I see a picture of four color-coded pillars, and a ring of D'ni numbers around it. There are about 21 numbers around the ring, and three of them are highlighted red to match the first pillar, three are white for the second pillar, and so on.

The way I see that you find the solution is:
1. Add up the three numbers for each pillar. You get:
1st pillar: 9
2nd pillar: 6
3rd pillar: 9
4th pillar: 8
2. Subtract the numbers you get from 10.
That gives you the solution: 1, 4, 1, 2.

My question is, how are you supposed to know to subtract from ten? Ten wasn't a significant number in D'ni. 25 was. Unless there's a ten somewhere in the diagram (I don't see one), this seems like an inaccuracy. In my mind, the thought never would have occurred to subtract from ten.

Anybody got an explanation? I don't want a logical plothole in my head while I travel.

A side note: How are people who never played Riven (don't worry, I've played all of the Myst games) supposed to learn D'ni numbers from the game?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:30 am 
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Don't add the numbers up. Instead, consider the primal clue:

Only the way a man is when he is
hidden is how he is. A shallow
glimpse can deceive. Look deep, ponder
and recognize all that is hidden

Now, which numbers are "hidden" for each color?

As for D'ni numbers, the pages of the journal you find on the other bookshelf in Relto has page numbers in D'ni.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:57 am 
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Zardoz, you're a godsend.

Now, when I'm helping my friends through the Age on their first time, I know what hints to give.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:20 am 
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Central to Zardoz's hint is the core of all of the Kadish answers - what's missing is more important than what's there.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:52 pm 
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After finishing the last puzzle again, I totally see that.
This is great stuff. Thanks a ton.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:15 am 
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Kadish is fiendishly clever and beautifully designed. It was the only place I needed a hint in Uru - the same hint Zardoz (and RR) gave here, incidentally. I'm so glad you're enjoying the Journey, Dr. Worm. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:05 am 
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Zardoz wrote:
As for D'ni numbers, the pages of the journal you find on the other bookshelf in Relto has page numbers in D'ni.

Also - check out the band of D'ni numbers around the top of the walls in the Neighborhood classroom. I forget how high up they go but there are a lot more then pages in the journal. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:16 am 
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Zardoz wrote:
Don't add the numbers up. Instead, consider the primal clue:

Only the way a man is when he is
hidden is how he is. A shallow
glimpse can deceive. Look deep, ponder
and recognize all that is hidden

Now, which numbers are "hidden" for each color?


Dr. Worm wrote:
[..]
The way I see that you find the solution is:
1. Add up the three numbers for each pillar. You get:
1st pillar: 9
2nd pillar: 6
3rd pillar: 9
4th pillar: 8
2. Subtract the numbers you get from 10.
That gives you the solution: 1, 4, 1, 2.

My question is, how are you supposed to know to subtract from ten? [..]


Interesting.
I would like to say, Dr. Worm, you were not absolutely wrong with adding the numbers up.
Consider that the "possible" numbers were supposed to be 1, 2, 3 or 4 here. Now, the sum 1+2+3+4 is ... 10.

And this will work with ANY set of numbers, starting with 1, up to any number "n":
If you are looking for a single missing number y in a set [1, 2, ... , y-1, y+1, ... n-1, n] you can just add up all numbers in the given set, substract it from the sum of numbers [1..n] and you will get the missing number.

Sidenote: It may seem useless to make such additions and subtractions because in this example you can easily *see* which number is missing, but assume a set of more (unsorted) numbers but one missing - e.g. a set of billiard balls. With this trick you can determine the missing ball without the need to sort the list.
For example, if you get a sum of 112 with 14 balls, then ball 8 is missing to make the set of 15 balls complete (sum 120).

shorah


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:30 am 
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Zardoz wrote:
Don't add the numbers up. Instead, consider the primal clue:

Only the way a man is when he is
hidden is how he is. A shallow
glimpse can deceive. Look deep, ponder
and recognize all that is hidden

Um ... where was this clue? :P


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:43 am 
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In the journal you find in your Relto hut, on the right-hand bookshelf as you walk in the door.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:53 am 
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Doh -- thanks!


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