It is currently Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:26 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 133 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:10 am
Posts: 182
Location: Australia
I'm only doing it for the glory of grabbing one of TOOO's spots on the bevin imager..... Now I know not to donate my points in dribs and drabs, I expect to see my name up there one day.

This, however is a quote to live by.....
Quote:
...it is unfortunate that I do not control the universe. :)

_________________
Everything tastes better with chocolate....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:58 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:26 pm
Posts: 115
Thanks for the information RAWA. It brings me to this question (contains some spoilers given by RAWA):

[spoiler]While the meter in the game had good reasons to be removed for the time being, how about we have the threshold number posted outside the game (such as in these forums)? It does not sound like it would really spoil anything big since the meter had made it available originally (displaying "0" with a flickering "1"). That would make it easier to tell whether or not we are imagining perceived changes in the light levels.

Because it seems the threshold typically changes only occasionally, it may not be difficult to update the posted number, even if it is only given monthly rather than the moment the change happens.. Perhaps JWPlatt could make an OOC note of any visible change when he posts his updates.[/spoiler]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:02 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 1:54 pm
Posts: 1182
Since interest in the cavern seems to be waning, maybe it would be good to actually raise the lake light level a bit more, so that more people can really see a difference. Wouldn't it be in Cyan's favor to allow us such luxury instead of waiting months?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:16 pm
Posts: 99
Wow, thanks RAWA. I was under the impression until your post that Cyan had never implemented any way to change the lake at all, that it was static. I can't help feeling that it would have been nice if you had told us something like this earlier, like when Moula was first brought back up last year, so we knew that there were still gears grinding behind the scenes, even slow, hand-powered gears. :D I'm not criticizing necessarily, (ok, I guess I am, but in a good way), it's just that the lake project is the kind of journey I'd be interested in, but I honestly didn't believe there was a journey there to take.

It's like the great zero project. No, that's not right. When the great zero turned on, the reaction people had was something like “That wasn't a journey to take, it was a play to watch.”, but when we were handed the lake project, after a while people decided “This isn't a journey to take, but a play to wait for.” However, both times the problem was that people thought the circuit between their actions and the events in the game had been broken. It's this circuit that has to be controlled more carefully than almost any other part of a game, not just uru, but any game, and it's not just because these were both long term projects that the circuit broke.

There were two ways for us to measure our progress with the great zero. There was the "flashy" ending when the great zero finally turned on completely, but there was also the little graphic meter in the great zero area and what the DRC told us. When the meter never moved, and the flashy ending came anyway, many people concluded that the effort on their part had been pointless, that Cyan had just flipped a switch when they wanted to regardless of the actions of the explorers. That's not the problem, though. The problem wasn't that the effects of the explorers' actions was an illusion, the problem was that it was an illusion done badly. This is a computer game, it's all illusions. But if the meter had moved continuously and the DRC had talked more about all the progress we were making, we would have believed it. Since the meter didn't move, we believed the game when it told us we still had a lot of work to do, and when the great zero turned on without us, as it seemed, a lot of people lost their trust it the game, not just because they suddenly thought they couldn't affect the game, but because they lost the feeling that they were affecting the game. If done slightly differently, more people might have been more willing to continue suspending their disbelief after the great zero project, and they wouldn't have jumped so easily to the conclusion that the lake would never be lit, at least not by the explorers.

It's a feedback issue. This is what games are made of. I say "I shoot the alien." The game says "You shoot the alien and it dies." I say "I build a house." The game says "You build a house and it's beautiful." I say "I dig for gold." or "I talk to the robot." or "I open the door." and the game replies "You get rich.", "You get vaporized." or "You find a secret tunnel to the greatest, lost underground civilization of all time." What the reward or punishment is doesn't matter, so long as the game responds and I see it as response. I don't care if the lake gets brighter, or if the great zero turns on, or if the empire is restored, or if thousands of fluffy, white flowers burst out of the rock. It doesn't matter. The graphics don't matter. The story doesn't matter. The flashiness doesn't matter. The presence or absence of violence and adrenaline rushes or challenging brain-twisters doesn't matter. Nothing matters, except the relentless I-say-you-say-I-say-you-say, pounding into people's psyches the idea that they are moving, of their own will and by their own effort, towards the attainment of their desires, maintaining their feeling that there is something for them to try for and that they'll eventually get it if they do try, keeping up the high of purposeful action for as long as possible, as often and as much as possible, until you've made millions of dollars convincing people of their own efficacy.

End of rant. Thanks again RAWA.

/me wanders off to bake some pellets and go back to lurking.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:45 am
Posts: 183
Ok, I can't say I agree completely with what Jmp12 said--because for me, the graphics, the results, the puzzles, and especially the story all do matter. I do want the lake to get brighter and I don't want thousands of fluffy white flowers to burst out of the rock.

Nevertheless, I agree that feedback and interactivity was and is an important issue of MOUL and now MOULa. The Great Zero thing was a perfect example. I felt the same way that it seems Jmp did--at first it seemed like what we were doing was progressing towards something, but then it seemed like it meant nothing, that Cyan just flipped the switch when they chose too. Very often it seemed like what we did as explorers had very little effect on the story. There were a couple of things where we obviously did have an effect. For example, explorers went on "dates" with Nick White and then one of them got jealous of the others and reported him to the DRC--and as a result, he was fired. Then there was the day that Wheely disappeared, and a few of us mentioned the incident to Laxman, asking him to notify Engberg. A couple of hours later the two of them showed up in AeGura looking for her. I know the whole Wheely plotline was planned out from the beginning anyway, but it felt like this small part of the story was at least partially shaped by explorers.

But those things were the exception, not the rule, and they were relatively minor aspects of the greater storyline. I think the most common complaint back in the days of MOUL was that we all felt more like spectators than participants. We wanted to all get involved in the story, not merely watch it, and without interactivity and feedback, the feeling of participation just isn't there.

That's how the lake lighting project always felt to me. I think most of us figured that the simple truth was that Cyan would make the lake brighter when they chose to, and our pellet-cooking made no difference at all in the long run. It's very nice to hear that there actually is some kind of mechanism in place, though.

_________________
MOULa KI#237576


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:22 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:14 pm
Posts: 1757
Carl Palmner wrote:
I do want the lake to get brighter and I don't want thousands of fluffy white flowers to burst out of the rock.


But if a boat would rise up out of the water and a walkway would appear and another linking book?

_________________
Moul(A)II Charura KI#296707 Char Gearz KI#600002 Teri Dactyl KI#600568 Chickopee KI#601018 Cannon Belle KI#601422

_____________________________
How Many Times Does A Myst Player Play Myst Before A Myst Player Decides To Play Myst Again


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:22 pm
Posts: 1810
Location: California
I suspect the lake algae is like electric eels... when we get enough of them there will be huge electric discharges that will dwarf those from the Great Zero machine...

Well... may be... Have you ever examined the algae? :?

_________________
Nalates - GoC - 418 - MOULa I: Nal KI#00 083 543, MOULa II: KI#00 583 875Nalates 111451 - Second Life: Nalates Urriah
Guild of Cartographers Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:05 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:28 am
Posts: 1247
I found RAWA's post to be fascinating. There's all sorts of new nuggets of information in there. That there is an algae model that RAWA updates is certainly of interest.

But, it does beg the question: where is it going? It seems like RAWA was saying that there is no end to this project - and I can accept that - but only if there is a purpose to it. Even if that purpose is just to generate data. The scientist side of me says "OK...so if we were all in the cavern and dropping pellets, surely by now someone would have come up with some method of measuring the effect it's having. If that's the case, why is that person not sharing their data in a meaningful way?"

We get the daily lake numbers through Platt. But what do those actually represent? When I see 223 or 234, what does that /actually mean/? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Have any negative consequences ever been seen? And what are negative and positive? If the numbers go up is that good or bad? What about down? What about rolling averages?

RAWA mentioned that the DRC was never around the make the nudges and hits necessary to keep the project on task. Despite that, however, we seem to be headed in the right direction. That's awesome and all, but what is the right direction?

I'd love to see those hints passed along - even if via drcsite.org.

I can't shake the feeling that this is just another puzzle to be understood. Perhaps not conquered in terms of completing the puzzle, but for me "winning" the puzzle is knowing how it works. And, that there isn't enough information to solve it. There isn't enough data to form a hypothesis.

I, for one, would love to solve the puzzle of how the lake works...even knowing that it means there is no conclusion or reward for doing so.

_________________
Image
Click here to change my signature!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:07 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 736
Location: Lawrenceville, GA KI# 165326
RAWA, that was most intriguing! I love behind-the-scenes stuff!

So, jumping off of OHB's post about solving this puzzle… How can we do that IC? That's the ultimate goal, I would think. Now, JWPlatt already has Dr. Watson's weekly pellet e-mails. Could he possibly get a DRC response to some questions if he asked that way?

Or should we start having DRC-summoning nights in the City? :wink:

_________________
Cosmic Osmo for iOS is a must!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:25 pm
Posts: 158
Location: Aberystwyth, Wales
RAWA wrote:
The lake light "threshold" has been updated (raised and lowered) as necessary several times this last year. The effect in the Cavern is visible today. No code update required, as I have stated in previous posts.


Okay, I'm not going to quote the entirety of RAWA's post, but I have to admit - this is pretty cool. :P

FEEDING THE LAKE DOES SOMETHING. Nice to hear, and I'm interested in what D'Lanor was talking about, maybe we'll discuss it over at the GoW?

In any case, if RAWA is happy to answer a few questions I guess I could always ask one - in a speculative world where Live had remained open after Season 1, do you think that this Lake project would have been finished by now?

_________________
I am a member of Team OSCAR. I make content for MOULa. Help OSCAR here: http://forums.openuru.org/viewforum.php?f=103


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:16 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 1474
Location: Hanging around with mermaids. And still looking for the elusive Funky Bahro.
On the other hand, are we really feeding the algae - or just polluting the lake? :wink:

_________________
New to Uru? See this video.

KI numbers:
TOOO 24657
Magical Mystery TOOO 643784
Institution TOOO 816645
Karaoke TOOO 816776

~and featuring~

Murinna (the mermaid) 2484723
Mallina (the other mermaid) 3015052

Second Life: TOOO Fall


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:15 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 12:22 am
Posts: 1092
Location: On the bluff
Malfhok wrote:
So, jumping off of OHB's post about solving this puzzle… How can we do that IC? That's the ultimate goal, I would think. Now, JWPlatt already has Dr. Watson's weekly pellet e-mails. Could he possibly get a DRC response to some questions if he asked that way?

I'm sure those of us who have been associated with the Fuzzy Physics Institute would be happy to help the DRC, but they've always held the scientific work very close to the vest.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:05 am
Posts: 83
Location: K'veer
Well this new information will definitely have me feeding the lake much more frequently. The fact that there is actually an algae model that RAWA is using will have a lot of explorers making more frequent visits to Er'cana.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:16 pm
Posts: 1342
Location: D'ni Zoological Society
Zardoz wrote:
I'm sure those of us who have been associated with the Fuzzy Physics Institute would be happy to help the DRC, but they've always held the scientific work very close to the vest.


The D'ni Zoological Society also made repeated requests to assist with the algae research, to no avail. Oh well. Maybe if the DRC ever returns, they'll be a little more forthcoming with their notes... :)

RAWA, as always, your input is loved, appreciated, and overanalyzed. :lol: Thanks so much!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:32 pm 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 2:18 am
Posts: 1420
Wow! Agreeing with the above, RAWA's comments are deeply fascinating. Like so many others, I'd assumed that the Lake lighting process was dead in the water (so to speak), and that all of our pellets had been dropped for naught.

It's intriguing to know that not only were they doing something - that they're STILL doing something, and that RAWA is actively monitoring the process.

This is wonderful news indeed, and I do believe I'll go back into the pellet business! Now to do some digging and find the best formula again, because I forgot... :(

Cheers,

Mowog

_________________
MOUL KI: 174162

Image


Last edited by Mowog on Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 133 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 9  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: