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 Post subject: Re: Night Minkata...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:50 am 
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Well... MY only problem with the idea that touching the stones shifts you thru time, or to a different Age is this:

If there are SEVERAL people in Minkata together.. when one of them touches a stone, ALL the visitors are thrust into Night-Minkata-- not just the one who touches the stone.


In fact, on my FIRST visit to Minkata, as a newbie, I went there with an experienced player, who left me and another newbie behind at the cage, while he trotted to the first kiva and "turned on the dark.".

That's a bit of distance between us and the guy who touched the stone-- and yet we ALL went to NIght-Minkata.

I could believe the stone sends whoever touches it, into the future or another Age... but that doesn't account for how other explorers--- some even a distance away-- would go with him.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:18 am 
Well, I think the only explanation for that is "Yeesha magic".


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:15 pm 
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DLordofTime wrote:
Well, I think the only explanation for that is "Yeesha magic".


Maybe... maybe not. Still not ready to give up on theorizing yet...

Quote:
My own theory about day/night Minkata is that they are the same Age but at different times, with the night Minkata being in the far distant future. This would then mean that the D'ni use of the Age was exclusively day Minkata.


Yeesha's speeches in the Bahro cave make it sound like the D'ni once kept the Bahro as slaves. It's entirely possible the author of the Age did create Minkata with those stones and the day/night effect in mind, and the Bahro created the stones for him... maybe the day/night effect was there for the D'ni, as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Please remember that Minkata was Written for use by the Guild of Cartographers. (Their symbol is in all the kivas - even on Bonehenge itself!)

Obviously, the Stones were placed later by Yeesha and her bahro friends - maybe just before the DRC opened it. (Does anyone know if the DRC were surprised to find the Stones?)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:45 pm 
Those stones are clear representations of the Bah'ro civil war. See the crack, with one Bah'ro either side? And then the journey symbol itself, a crack with two white circles on one side, and two dark circles on the other, relating to the good Bah'ro and the bad Bah'ro.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:59 pm 
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O / O
    \
O / O

It's also looks like the Relto pillars and the star fissure... :P

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:17 pm 
Perhaps, though given the historical situation, the Bah'ro War seems a more likely meaning for the symbol.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:25 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:27 pm 
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TOOO wrote:
Please remember that Minkata was Written for use by the Guild of Cartographers. (Their symbol is in all the kivas - even on Bonehenge itself!)

Obviously, the Stones were placed later by Yeesha and her bahro friends - maybe just before the DRC opened it. (Does anyone know if the DRC were surprised to find the Stones?)


Cartographers... mapmakers? the problem I see with that is that it seems pretty clear the whole solution of Minkata... it's purpose of using the stars as a guide to determine a path and locate objects as a way of learning how to create and read maps... That all seems to be tied in with the purpose of cartography.

So the Age was created by mapmakers, but all they did was create a featurless desert... and it was NOT the cartographers but the Bahro who put these stones into Minkata -- and by sheer coincidence those stones help it function as a way of learning cartography?

This would be a little like finding an ancient schoolhouse and thinking modern soldiers must have put the schoolbooks in it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:34 pm 
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manloc wrote:
O / O
    \
O / O

It's also looks like the Relto pillars and the star fissure... :P


It occurred to me at Heritage Night, this last round, that perhaps the Minkata 'journey' is placed as a reminder that the Bahro could do to us as we've done to them- splitting their souls across two points of time and space. Like we have to do with the Bahro poles as a part of Yeesha's journey. Thus why the symbol looks like it, perhaps?

*shrug*

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Calumon wrote:
manloc wrote:
O / O
    \
O / O

It's also looks like the Relto pillars and the star fissure... :P


It occurred to me at Heritage Night, this last round, that perhaps the Minkata 'journey' is placed as a reminder that the Bahro could do to us as we've done to them- splitting their souls across two points of time and space. Like we have to do with the Bahro poles as a part of Yeesha's journey. Thus why the symbol looks like it, perhaps?

I like this idea! :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Shorah!

So glad to see so much interesting discussion here! :D

It's entirely possible that the pillars were *also* a representation of the Bahro relationship with the D'ni. I doubt it's an accident that the pattern they form is a match for the Minkata symbol (which also began showing up in other places at about the same time Minkata was released, Watson returned from his pilgrimage where he freed the Bahro, and the Bahro civil war began). Yeesha made an obvious connection between the dots when the Relto crack appeared, sending us back to the Cleft with its identically-shaped crack. This one is less obvious but just as clear, I think.

I've theorized about Bahro linking bubbles before (regarding Descent vs. current day) and am wondering if we're seeing that on an even larger scale here in Minkata. I've believed for quite a while now that Yeesha's "magical" Writing abilities are derived directly from her apparent apprenticeship to the Bahro. She's been hanging out with them for a number of years, probably ever since Calam was killed (which would have been in the middle 1800s by our reckoning), so she's had time to learn a *lot* from them.

In examining the history of the Bahro enslavement, we have only bits of data. Yeesha's said they were enslaved 10,000 years ago, which roughly coincides with the arrival of the D'ni to the Cavern. It's looking more and more to me like the Bahro are associated only with the D'ni (not the rest of the Garternay refugees) and that their enslavement is one of the D'ni dirty secrets Yeesha began trying to teach us about in her original Journey Ages. The Kemo glyphs, the Teledahn slave caves, the Gahreesen prison cells all hint at both Bahro and human enslavement. Explorers have wondered for quite a while exactly *how* the D'ni transported unwieldy goods across the Ages but considering what we seem to be seeing about Bahro linking "magic", it could explain their enslavement. Trish's D'ni class system journal on the Tokotah rooftop talks about the Bahro being the lowest of the low classes to the D'ni (the Sub-Poor in Trish's terminology, the Least in Yeesha's terminology), which implies their enslavement was not hidden to the D'ni as a whole, but was considered a "normal" part of their society. Note: However, we also know that the D'ni kept the lowest classes quite separate from the rest of their society, so there were apparently some "slum" areas in the Cavern whose residents were kept under lock and key as it were.

Although there aren't any direct references to the Keep in the books, I'm speculating that it was housed in K'veer deliberately by the D'ni. Perhaps Lord Rakeri was the last D'ni to have had control over the tablet (that is before Yeesha and Esher arrived). Yeesha's comments about the tablet imply that it's fairly complex in design, "choosing" people rather than being usable by just anyone who finds it. If my speculation is anywhere close to the mark, Rakeri would have been the most powerful D'ni of his time and his family's dedication to the notion of enslavement and the strict division of classes further illuminates the bitter division between Veovis and Aitrus. And, interestingly, when we examine both the Keep and tablet, the tablet appears D'ni in design while the Keep and its four Age counterparts are clearly of Bahro design; yet these Bahro parts are integral to their enslavement. I'm sure there's some interesting history behind this, if only we could learn it!

My best guess is that Dr. Watson discovered the Keep in K'veer during his pilgrimage and after he abandoned his journal in the Great Shaft Tomahn (January 17, 2004 is his last journal entry); he found that he could interact with the tablet there, which attracted both Yeesha's and Esher's attention. And apparently it took him a pretty long time to complete the Age explorations and finally free the Bahro. So from the DRC's view, Watson disappeared in December 2003 without a word, only to reappear unexpectedly almost four years later, in September 2007. It's a fairly good bet that Watson freed the Bahro shortly before his return to the Cavern; judging from Cavern events at the time, we might even pinpoint the moment he freed the Bahro to coincide with the cave-in at the Kahlo Pub area, which shortly thereafter led to the deaths of Rosette and Wheely. Wheely's accounts of her Bahro encounter tell us a great deal about their inherent linking abilities--she was transported instantly to numerous places, her raging thirst was suddenly slaked, her signal kept appearing and disappearing in the KI lattice, she was able to communicate with the Bahro by drawing the signs Watson had discovered and used during his pilgrimage.

One of the more interesting aspects of Yeesha "magic" is the apparent ability to shift time or travel across time. The Kadish Tolesa future vault is the most obvious example of this, with its torn bits of a note hinting that Yeesha had figured out how to save Kadish's life. BrettM has written a very interesting analysis of this aspect of Yeesha's evolution as a Writer.

So the gist of all the above explanatory information is that I think it's quite possible that everything we have been talking about here is part of the final reality of Minkata. I think it can be all of the above: it can be an old D'ni age Written as a lesson for apprentice cartographers; it can be a Yeesha and Bahro lesson Age; it can be a construct a la Ahnonay; it can be an exercise in time travel. When I look at the scattered bits we see and infer about the Bahro, it seems all this and much more is possible here.

I think it's quite possible that Minkata was the last lesson/teaching Age Yeesha chose to give us and that its lesson is entwined with her final speech in K'veer, that we are now on our own, we must find our way, we must make a home, we must find an answer to the Bahro war, and that this answer cannot be found in any of the known Ages. Perhaps she and the "good" Bahro embedded into their altered version of Minkata everything they believe we'll need to accomplish this grand task... :shock:

Food for thought! :o

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Sorry, Ainia, but the deductions on the timeline are incorrect.

Watson freed the Bahro in 2005 or just before. Because the Game Myst V was *based* off of his exploration, and the game itself was released in 2005.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:45 pm 
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HarveyMidnight wrote:
TOOO wrote:
Please remember that Minkata was Written for use by the Guild of Cartographers. (Their symbol is in all the kivas - even on Bonehenge itself!)

Obviously, the Stones were placed later by Yeesha and her bahro friends - maybe just before the DRC opened it. (Does anyone know if the DRC were surprised to find the Stones?)


Cartographers... mapmakers? the problem I see with that is that it seems pretty clear the whole solution of Minkata... it's purpose of using the stars as a guide to determine a path and locate objects as a way of learning how to create and read maps... That all seems to be tied in with the purpose of cartography.

So the Age was created by mapmakers, but all they did was create a featurless desert... and it was NOT the cartographers but the Bahro who put these stones into Minkata -- and by sheer coincidence those stones help it function as a way of learning cartography?

This would be a little like finding an ancient schoolhouse and thinking modern soldiers must have put the schoolbooks in it.


You seem to be missing an entire bevy of points. The reason there is a solution to Minkata is that the Age has been adapted by Yeesha to serve as a lesson, guiding and teaching. There's no reason to conflate Minkata's original purpose with later adaptations. While it's certainly possible that the GoC also used the Age to practice celestial navigation, they likely followed the constellations in a far less literal sense. Had D'ni society somehow mastered Vahkro magic to an extent that they were already turning it to such commonplace uses, things would be... different.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:51 pm 
Cartography is literal map-making. Plotting points onto paper. Aligning yourself using natural or artificial markers. Using the starts to find your way is astronavigation, and typically associated with naval work.


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