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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:47 pm 
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HarveyMidnight wrote:
TOOO wrote:
Please remember that Minkata was Written for use by the Guild of Cartographers. (Their symbol is in all the kivas - even on Bonehenge itself!)

Obviously, the Stones were placed later by Yeesha and her bahro friends - maybe just before the DRC opened it. (Does anyone know if the DRC were surprised to find the Stones?)


Cartographers... mapmakers? the problem I see with that is that it seems pretty clear the whole solution of Minkata... it's purpose of using the stars as a guide to determine a path and locate objects as a way of learning how to create and read maps... That all seems to be tied in with the purpose of cartography.

So the Age was created by mapmakers, but all they did was create a featurless desert... and it was NOT the cartographers but the Bahro who put these stones into Minkata -- and by sheer coincidence those stones help it function as a way of learning cartography?

This would be a little like finding an ancient schoolhouse and thinking modern soldiers must have put the schoolbooks in it.

Let's say that a "day" in Minkata is a long time, many Earth years, maybe even centuries. This explains why the suns never set while we see them and the bone cage is so decayed in the night instance. But remember that D'ni fell a long time ago. The last time the cartographers were in Minkata it could well have been night time, so the stars could guide them to the Kivas. The Bahro stones wouldn't have been there, but any number of things could, and we know that the cartographers used the Kivas because they left their mark.

I'm inspired by your school analogy so try this one: Assuming that the puzzle currently in the age was the reason the cartographers created the age is like assuming Alan Turing invented the computer so that he could play Myst.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:12 am 
There is a slight problem with your solution of super-long Minkata days. If a sun hangs in the sky for as long as we can observe Minkata's three to hang, then the surface becomes a literal fiery abyss. Nothing can survive.If you don't believe me, go look up the daytime surface temperature of various planets. Same scenario for night. Except cold.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:34 am 
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DLordofTime wrote:
Cartography is literal map-making. Plotting points onto paper. Aligning yourself using natural or artificial markers. Using the starts to find your way is astronavigation, and typically associated with naval work.


That's only in OUR culture. You're working under a flawed preconception that the D'ni would follow our customs with regard to their mapmaking. But their culture developed independently of ours, and they may well have incorporated astronavigation as a part of THEIR cartography.

But here's something else to consider: Even if the carvings ON the stones appear to date to the Bahro Civil War, you can't jump to the conclusion that the stones themselves can be dated to the Civil War--- just the carvings.


I'd like to posit a theory: the stones were created by Bahro slaves in D'ni, and were incorporated into Minkata when it was originally written. But during the Civil War, "evil" Bahro vandalized the stones, breaking them in half in an act of defiance, to destroy this symbol of their enslavement. The carvings therefore are a "signature."

Yeesha and the 'good Bahro' then placed the stones back in their proper position and repaired them, allowing Minkata to function as originally intended before the DNC opened the Age to the public. Yeesha left the cracks in the stones and let the carvings remain because she doesn't dig censorship.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:49 am 
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DLordofTime wrote:
If a sun hangs in the sky for as long as we can observe Minkata's three to hang, then the surface becomes a literal fiery abyss.


[spoiler]At which point I'd have to remind you-- again-- that using 'real' science to dispute events in the game is considered OOC. Game canon trumps real science. And if you can't find any game-canon to support your claim, then your claim doesn't apply. Myst is science-fantasy, not science fiction. There are MANY instances of suns and light acting in a manner that isn't strictly 'realistic' in the game.

Examples: It is ALWAYS daylight in the cleft,24 hours a day in a place that is supposed to be in New Mexico and real-time in the 'Mountain Timezone' of the USA-- in fact, the sun in the Cleft NEVER moves-- but any suggestion that the Cleft is NOT in New Mexico or on Earth, or that the sun in the Cleft is doing something scientifically impossible would violate game canon. It is an established fact, the Cleft is in New Mexico. Myst masterpiece edition has a 15 minute day-night sequence on the planet where Myst Island is located.. which YOU have pointed out in discussions about Teledahn, should be impossible. These are examples where Myst game canon allows 'fudging' the laws of nature.

You are willing to destroy others' enjoyment of IC speculation, just to 'win' an argument. You and I have discussed this before. What you're doing is ooc AND out of line, imo. [/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:03 am 
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Take it to Fanfiction.net. Whining because people are using science instead of making things up based on nothing is an unacceptable excuse.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:55 am 
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Cool it please, Enzan, Harvey. Personal insults do not advance your arguments.

Surveyors, not cartographers.

The Bahro symbol has two filled-in circles, two empty circles: I see it as white-hats and black-hats, two groups with a split between them

This is a teaching age - for learning navigation skills, not surveying skills, there are no tools to perform any surveying operations. Cartographic skills are needed to interpret the clues in the book, and optionally to reduce the complex journeys to simpler ones. Celestial navigation (sun-compass and astral navigation) is the skill being taught, or exercised. The Bahro glyphs and moving constellations are changes from the original.

Strong evidence for Bahro placement of stone monuments:
* "civil war" symbol,
* "magical motion" of whole star-patterns (not something that exercises astral navigation) on walking through the glyph,
* Bahro screech on walking through the glyph
* the glyph itself.

I theorize Bahro replacement of linking books by stones because Minkata makes more sense as a navigation exercise if it exercises both day and night navigation skills. It's just one explanation of what we observe, with no direct evidence to prove or disprove it.

The stones are placed there together with the nighttime journey where we are exhorted to "find your path in the stars" as a message. It is most likely from Yeesha, if only because of its enigmatic nature.

The suns are unbelievable unless held in place by magic, or by being large projectors hung about two miles away in the sky. Either explanation produces the same results when observed from the central area.

We can test our theories by running towards the suns.

They Get Closer.

They are local projectors, not stars at all. This is absolutely provable by observations within the areas we are permitted to walk in. You may prefer a fantastic explanation, but the scientific method a good tool for testing theories.

Also, gravity works normally in Minkata, so if the suns are stars viewed from a long way off they should rotate around each other in complex patterns.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:10 am 
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Muttley wrote:
Cool it please, Enzan, Harvey. Personal insults do not advance your arguments.

Can we please not have a repeat of the Teledahn Sun thread?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:19 am 
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Enzan wrote:
Take it to Fanfiction.net. Whining because people are using science instead of making things up based on nothing is an unacceptable excuse.


[spoiler]
It isn't based on nothing; it's based on game canon; there is an unwritten narrative, related to solving every Age--- that unspoken narrative contains storyline elements. The solution to Minkata is dependent upon the fact that the sun never moves, so your shadow is always consistent, and therefore you can rely on it to point in the proper direction.

And after 15 pages of the 'physics of Teledahn' thread, I get really sick, really quickly, of people deciding they are smarter than everyone else and feeling like that gives them the right to withhold permission to formulate IC theories from other posters.
[/spoiler]

Alien wrote:
Muttley wrote:
Cool it please, Enzan, Harvey. Personal insults do not advance your arguments.

Can we please not have a repeat of the Teledahn Sun thread?


Time will tell, I guess.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:32 am 
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No one's stopping you from creating theories.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:28 am 
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Muttley wrote:
The suns are unbelievable unless held in place by magic, or by being large projectors hung about two miles away in the sky. Either explanation produces the same results when observed from the central area.

We can test our theories by running towards the suns.

They Get Closer.

They are local projectors, not stars at all. This is absolutely provable by observations within the areas we are permitted to walk in. You may prefer a fantastic explanation, but the scientific method a good tool for testing theories.


[spoiler]Sorry, I can't follow the logic.

The fact that the suns get closer as you run toward them? I would call that a 'digital artifact', a limitation of how realistically the sky & the suns can behave in the game, due to the software that was used to render the graphics. That's something you are supposed to take for granted, that a sun in a video game isn't always going to act like a real sun, but it's meant to be a sun, in the story.

It's the hand of the puppeteer. If you see it by mistake you're not supposed to think a giant monster hand in the sky is part of the puppetshow. No wonder the lonely goat is so lonely.. that giant hand in the sky scares all the other goats away!


I just cannot visit Minkata, and think for a moment that the guys who created that Age wanted me to see those shadows, and that sand, and those dustclouds, and hear that dry wind... and NOT understand that the bright yellow discs above me were scorching hot desert suns.

I was far more interested in speculating on the fictional backstory of Minkata, it being a "real desert with real suns"... than chat about the game's unrealistic elements.[/spoiler]

Alien wrote:
Can we please not have a repeat of the Teledahn Sun thread?


Yeah... and since I seem to be the odd man out, I guess I should apologize and go. Sorry I snapped.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:56 am 
Harvey, I am not disputing that Minkata is a real desert. I am directly disputing a really long day/night cycle as canon. I am well aware that only one(?) Age has a day/night cycle that we can see.
Bogardan Mage wrote:
Let's say that a "day" in Minkata is a long time, many Earth years, maybe even centuries. This explains why the suns never set while we see them and the bone cage is so decayed in the night instance.

You see? I am merely pointing out that Minkata cannot work like this IC, because D'ni worlds must follow the same laws of physics as our world. Please, make sure you have all the facts before you go criticising people's statements.

Oh, and if they didn't want you to see just how dramatically the sky is distorted as you get closer to it, where are there no boundaries to Minkata? Why can you run right up to the edge? Why is the edge so far out anyways? It would've been easy for them to put a circular ridge around Minkata much further in, perhaps just inside the 0-visibility dust storm. Of course, only if they didn't want us to notice that we can run right up to the edge of the sky. Oh, and I can do one better then claim. I got a picture just as I fell off Minkata.Meet me in the Cavern sometime and I'll show you.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:21 am 
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HarveyMidnight wrote

[spoiler]Sorry, I can't follow the logic.

The fact that the suns get closer as you run toward them? I would call that a 'digital artifact', a limitation of how realistically the sky & the suns can behave in the game, due to the software that was used to render the graphics. That's something you are supposed to take for granted, that a sun in a video game isn't always going to act like a real sun, but it's meant to be a sun, in the story.

It's the hand of the puppeteer. If you see it by mistake you're not supposed to think a giant monster hand in the sky is part of the puppetshow. No wonder the lonely goat is so lonely.. that giant hand in the sky scares all the other goats away!


I just cannot visit Minkata, and think for a moment that the guys who created that Age wanted me to see those shadows, and that sand, and those dustclouds, and hear that dry wind... and NOT understand that the bright yellow discs above me were scorching hot desert suns.

I was far more interested in speculating on the fictional backstory of Minkata, it being a "real desert with real suns"... than chat about the game's unrealistic elements.[/spoiler]

AlanD replied

[spoiler]We are solving problems in a universe that has some characteristics that are unusual and can't be explained by our current knowledge. To me, that does not mean that we should always look for a fantastic solution when we find something out of the ordinary. If so then we may as well give up because we can't use our problem-solving toolkit: walking around looking at things trying to interact with them and drawing inferences from the results - there could always be a magical explanation.

So I choose to test the behaviour of items and match them to what I already know to be true, only looking for a magical solution if there is no other explanation.

Minkata's suns don't behave according to astrophysics, meaning they are not massive bodies around which the planet is in orbit. Either the force of gravity is being nullified for some bodies but not others or they are smaller and closer and being held up by big bits of string, You would have to nullify gravtity between the suns and the planet, but not affect it when you got down to the photosphere/atmosphere level. Otherwise the air runs away and the suns dissapate into clouds of gas. Oh, and we can jump really high, but not for very long :shock: :D .

The D'ni have been seen to create megastructures before now, Ahnonay being the obvious example. I think Minkata is a dome simulator, inside which planetary conditions have been set up for training purposes. Such a device would have, for example, the advantage of being able to be reset to different types of planet or to simulate something that hasn't been encountered yet, in a safe way that allows instructors to retrieve lost or failing candidates to try again. Military and civil pilots already use similar but smaller devices to gain experience of extreme conditions in a safe environment that is also less costly to run than repeated flights. You can practice, crash, go back and see what you did wrong and try again.

I agree that the projectors are meant to simulate suns as part of the exercise. Anywhere you can still see your shadows they act as reliable direction indicators. Not precise, but reliable and accurate enough to complete the navigation exercises.

Minkata is unusual to us in that it is a flat plane over which we can range freely. That means that we can carry on running towards the suns and, though we can't see the ground any more, we can see the sky and observe that the suns are becoming perceptibly closer, so that the shadows (that we can't see any more) would have lost their helpful alignments. Run far enough and you run underneath the sun projector.

[spoiler]You can choose to ignore that OOC, saying it's an artifact of the game's 3D modelling - however it would have been easy to make the dust storm behave like the ones we are used to and block out the sky as well. But they didn't.[/spoiler]

You are not forced to believe my theory. I've presented some proof. If it doesn't convince you, perform your own experiments. Or handwave it away, it doesn't matter to me. But in the absence of any evidence countering my view, I'll continue to hold it. it has ramifications for further exploration of Minkata, as if the suns were astronomically distant and fixed in place, they would provide a fixed direction marker. Since they are local, they can be located in xyz coordinates and taken as position markers. Unfortunately it's difficult for us to get a good estimate of their height, the z figure.[/spoiler]
HarveyMidnight wrote
Yeah... and since I seem to be the odd man out, I guess I should apologize and go. Sorry I snapped.

Don't go. Dissenting opinions are essential to challenge any theory. If my theory cannot account for something you observe or a theory derived from it, then an experiment should be performed to test both theories. Our options are limited in the cavern and the ages we find links to there because we don't have all of the equipment we carry around on the surface, but there are some things we can do.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:30 pm 
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Muttley wrote:
Don't go. Dissenting opinions are essential to challenge any theory. If my theory cannot account for something you observe or a theory derived from it, then an experiment should be performed to test both theories.


[spoiler]The problem isn't dissenting opinions. From an IC perspective we have dissenting facts.

Sometimes the game mechanics conflict with the intent of the storyline, in the form of a glitch or problem with continuity-- because there are REAL events we'd take for granted in a real place, that cannot be recreated properly in a game.

MY understanding of being "in character" is that you IGNORE things that are limits of the graphics, glitches, digital artifacts, what have you.... and you have to base your IC speculations & theories on what is supported by the storyline. when you remain in character, you're not supposed to NOTICE aspects of the Age that don't act real..

...unless there is a game-canon reason why they aren't real.

Like in Ahnonay; relevant spoilers below: [spoiler] Ahnonay is an example of when "the D'ni" created an artificial construct that looks real but isn't. The problem is that there's a storyline basis for that--- Ahnonay was created by Kadish, who wanted to pretend he was the Grower. He created Ahnonay to fool other D'ni into thinking that he had the power to link to different points in time. There is no such storyline basis for the suns in Minkata to be artificial.[/spoiler]

The Myst franchise has a VERY specific canon about the Art and how it links to universes with planets & real suns, not fake ones. That for me, is the established canon-- something would have to be REALLY obvious in the Age to suggest an object like a sun or a cliffside, etc was "designed" to be fake as part of the story...[spoiler] like in Ahnonay, when you can go behind the facade & see its just a big billboard on a stand, with machinery hidden behind it. [/spoiler]

My opinion is the phenomenon you're basing your Minkata theory on, is something we should ignore. From the OOC viewpoint... Minkata has a big, flat surface area for players to explore, with an unobscured view of the sky and the horizon; the 'unreal' aspects of the sky being a dome might become more noticeable in certain places like the far edge, where it might look a little 'weird'. I don't believe this behavior of the suns around the edge, is meant to be an IC "fact".

Quote:
"it would have been easy to make the dust storm behave like the ones we are used to and block out the sky as well. "


That's not enough for me to believe they deliberately DIDN'T block out the sky, because we were meant see the suns' unrealistic behavior. Not to mention, obscuring the sky with a dust storm would cause an issue over the fact that you need to cast sharp & distinct shadows.

It would be just as easy for them to give the Cleft a day/night sequence like MANY other Ages, and synch it with New Mexico time.. but they didn't. That is NOT 'proof' that the Cleft is somewhere off-world. The 'proof' of the sun's unrealistic behavior in the Cleft conflicts with game-canon, so that proof is discarded.

MANY of us have already had a long, drawn out discussion (see also as: argument/ flame war) about a very similar issue with the Teledahn sun. NOBODY is interested in reliving that. [/spoiler]

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Last edited by HarveyMidnight on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:28 pm 
Before anyone says anything else, everyone take the time to read this, and I mean read it. Start to end, no missing out bits that are inconvenient, or trump your position. Thankyou.

On Minkata's suns, one conclusion we cannot draw is that we can pretend to have any knowledge of the actual Minkata day/night cycle. All we can do is say what it is not. For example, it is not so long that we cannot tell that it has one, for this would lead to us being roasted upon arrival. Reductio ad absurdum.
Therefore, there are two options: It's fake, or it's not meant to be taken as is. The second principle applies to most Ages, including the Cleft, therefore it is the preferable default. However, it is not satisfying for those of us, including myself, who like to have an IC picture of everything. Which is where rigorous examination and experimentation is to be invoked.
We can observe a distortion of the night sky (I have only tested the night sky because it is easier than the daytime sky) if we run for long enough to the point where we fall off the Age. That we are able to do so is interesting, because Cyan is not trying to hide various products of how they made the Age. Since such a model is consistent with an artificial construction, hiding such artefacts correlates to wanting a natural explanation of the Age, as opposed to an artificial one. Here I cite the Cleft as an example of a natural interpretation, and Minkata as an artificial interpretation.
At this point, we who are of the IC school examine the method and result, and see if there are any errors. This is good scientific research. However, you of the OOC school criticise us for trying to explain artefacts. At which point, I stand up and say, "The two schools are incompatible. You cannot criticise us for doing what we want to, simply because it doesn't agree with your viewpoints. Similarly, we cannot criticise you for doing what you want to, simply because it doesn't agree with our viewpoints." I would now give an analogy, but I can't think of one. Oh well. I simply hope that my point has got across to you.
Oh, and to the one (I know you're out there) who says, "But I have an IC perspective and an OOC perspective, yet you claim they are incompatible", that statement is geared towards to issue where one school criticises the other. And strictly speaking, anyone who yearns for an IC explanation is of this 'both sides' category. We already know that the OOC explanation works, and is very simple. But where's the fun in that?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:38 pm 
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DLordofTime wrote:
At this point, we who are of the IC school examine the method and result, and see if there are any errors. This is good scientific research. However, you of the OOC school criticise us for trying to explain artefacts.


This is where I think you have it backward, tho... It is inherently OOC to notice shortcomings and artifacts in the graphics and point them out. It is inherently OOC to point out that events in the game, didn't or can't actually happen.

IF this is a fantasy world, and we're IC and pretending we are characters in it, then we are supposed to react to the 'scientifically impossible' things as if they actually happened.

I think, when you start claiming the sun can't realistically act the way it does.. you're getting really close to being OOC-- and you cross the line into OOC, when you start suggesting that the sun must be some construct, and not a real sun... when the story narrative of the game seems to hinge on it being a real sun, and the Myst canon suggests the D'ni art links to different Ages with REAL suns and planets.


SO I think you CAN'T insist the sun must be a fake sun, when an 'artifact' in the graphics is making it act unrealistic, or because this game takes place in a fantasy world and the sun is doing something fantastic. Not if you are being IC, you can't. If there's no game canon to explain WHY the sun is acting weird, then it isn't acting weird-- and if REAL science contradicts the game canon.. then the real science doesn't apply.

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