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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:49 am 
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** MAJOR SPOILER AHEAD **

** This post will pretty much completely spoil the Pod Ages. You have been warned. **

There is a conflict in the Cavern between people who want to have what they call "Public Service Announcements" of when the next Pod event occurs and people who want to protect new explorers from spoilers. Many people don't seem to recognize that making Pod announcements constitutes a spoiler, but it actually spoils the most important aspect of the Pod puzzle: namely that the Pods are on a regular cycle. Obviously, this is no longer news to people who have been playing Uru for the last seven years or more, but there are still new explorers logging in, and some of those new explorers are going to want to solve the Pod Ages for themselves, to include figuring out that the Pods are on a regular cycle. If the long term explorers aren't willing to take some trouble to protect new explorers from unwanted spoilers on how to solve puzzles in a game that is nothing but puzzles, then the long term explorers should not be surprised if the community does not grow, new explorers don't stay, and Cyan can't collect enough donations to fund new content.

So I am asking people to work on methods to get the word out about Pod events to the people who want to hear about them without broadcasting spoilers through public chat in the public instance of D'ni - Ae'gura using autoshout.

Some methods are:
1. Restrict Pod announcement chat messages to one's Buddies List rather than to public chat.
2. Write a KI mail instead of using chat. The KI mail could then be updated as needed.
3. Use some sort of code when speaking in public chat. For example, instead of saying "The portal will open in Payiferen in 15 minutes!" just say something like "Next event in 15 mins. Send me a private message for details." Then you can warn strangers that the answer will include a major spoiler before you continue.

I look forward to hearing other suggestions and methods by which Pod event information can be disseminated to those who want it without spoiling the Pods for new explorers. Given that Uru is populated by people who love to solve puzzles, I'm sure the community can come up with some creative, effective solutions to resolving this conflict.

Thank you in advance to any who provide any assistance with this.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:38 am 
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Agreed. I always call it out when I see it. A quick "no public spoilers please" will help this.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:15 am 
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I'm fed up of being told how I can or can't play the game.
Who are you to tell me, or anyone they can't help people?
I was lectured about this exact subject when a new player asked , yes ASKED in public chat which book was the Negliahn portal. So I told her. I then got told off for giving spoilers in public chat. If a player asks a question, am I supposed to not answer? not help? To not do so would be rude and against the spirit of the community as I see it.

But there are people who think they have a right to dictate to others how to play this game. If a player wants to ask for help, they have every right to. If another player wants to answer that question and help, they have every right to. NO-ONE has any right to dictate to others how to play the game. NO-ONE.

Well, quite frankly I've had enough of this attitude from people, so I am taking a break from MOULa.
You can all bicker among yourselves, I'm out of it. Have fun.

Bye.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:17 am 
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Just for starters, let not (what I saw myself happen) a singular event be made into
MAJOR CONFLICT BETWEEN PLAYER GROUP A and PLAYER GROUP B!!! And yet again
start screaming for the Cavern Police! AS THERE IS NO CONFLICT! (read that again!)

We can never "educate" people to behave in a certain way, if they don't want to...
To some extent we can only tell them "this is how I should have done that". It is very
naive to believe that ones "own" way to play MOULa (or any other MMORPG) is the
ONLY way to play! We are all individuals, behave individually. And that is what makes
this community great!

Although I agree, we should not "spill the beans" in Public Chat. I myself (I think) have
never done that but use PM's to just give some clues, leading to right direction. This
is what I do. Others do differently. But I don't lecture anybody on "how" they should
do it... We are, most of us at least, grown ups. And we are nobody's mom...

But that point was made very clear by somebodies, by some people that agreed that
they disagreed... And THAT fight kept going almost an hour!!! So, MY question is...

IS the point of try winning every one of these kind of arguments just for the sake of
it more important than the well being of the Cavern?!? IF so, then go ahead. I left the
you people to fight it out! Alien (one of the most dedicated and helpful players) says
the same above. These kind of "incidents" are most likely to empty the cavern. How
pleased would you be, if you "won" the argument but notice you're all alone!?

And please, don't see this above as accepting the way, "people here give spoilers".
As it isn't just true!

THERE IS NO CONFLICT! As I see it, at least. But then again, I might just been blind for
some 4+ years, being in the cavern several times every week.

There is no conflict, but you always "see" what you want to see, and can create one!
And there is no need to create drama only for the sake of it...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:29 pm 
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m.a.x.2.0 said "Alien (one of the most dedicated and helpful players)"

I agree that Alien has been one of the most sincere, friendly, courteous, dedicated, helpful players in the cavern ! She has never criticized anybody that I know of. Always there to help peeps !!!!!!
--
I have heard of the so called " cavern police", but being away for a year plus , I am not sure what's going on lately ? I originally did the entire game the hard way with no spoilers, help, or walk throughs & it took me a long time! Some people want the fast and easy way with all the help they can get. That is an individuals choice if they want it spoiled for them, since they have the choice to ignore what was said to them, and leave to their private city.
Yes the game can be played privately & people can be blocked so that nothing is spoiled.
--
Alien said " If another player wants to answer that question and help, they have every right to. NO-ONE has any right to dictate to others how to play the game. NO-ONE"

If a person asks a question & wants that answer then I give it to them! Are they asking for a direct spoiler ( I may know this), but then if that's what they desire, I give it to them.
Different people are here for different reasons. If some want the entire game spoiled for them, then that's what they want. As long as you do not offer to spoil it before they ask for the spoiler.
Live and let live :)

Something is wrong if we are driving people like Alien away from the game! She is one of the most helpful person in the game always ready to help !
I was told in private chat by "G" that I was polluting the Public Chat with my Auto-chat on.
My Auto chat will now be off & I should be silenced ? I have received more criticism over Buddy Chat, because I had a lot of buddies from helping people, but then later on they don't want to hear you talk ? Well it works two ways: The other person can "block" and solve their problem themselves.
If you don't want to hear people talk then don't go to the public city, stay in your private ages! Or if you don't like what's going on or what you are hearing then relto out.
Why in the world are there police in the cavern? Cyan has it's rules and reports can be submitted, that is all that is necessary.

@ Alien : Don't leave because of what another person wants or says. Just stay firm on your path !
I thank you for the help you have given me in the past & I hope into the future also !

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:10 pm 
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I personally can't see why this argument started in the first place. Personally, I agree that you shouldn't be handing out spoilers - even if you warn of such - in the public chat. Yet, this doesn't mean 'no handing out spoilers, even if asked'. It means 'not in the public chat'. You guys must know that you have private chat too. Defaulting to private chat for handing out spoilers is thus the better way to behave in regards to this 'conflict'. You're only spoilering the game for those who asked for it, not those who happened to be in the public City at the same time, and did not want spoilers.

Seriously, where is the respect for everyone?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:18 pm 
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Yeah Alien you're fine. That post was obviously not about the type of situation you described. There's a big difference between "/shout hey everybody guess what there's a portal opening in 5 minutes!" And answering a new explorer's question, isn't there?

However I will quickly say my personal preference when it comes to helping explorers. If someone asks a question, I'll start with a hint. That's how people responded when I had questions many moons ago and I like to pay it forward. If they still want more I'll PM them what they want to know.

Please keep helping people, Alien! :-)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:52 pm 
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It's hard to respect everyone in every situations there are.

On the street, if I'm gonna walk down costumed in clown, I may disrespect some of the bywalkers I will cross. Some might be amused, some might be shocked, where is the line to draw between respect yourself and respect of others?

Here's a global principle that should be applied (whether you are religious or atheist): don't do to others what you wouldn't like they do toward you.

If you like to help people, do it. I do it quite frankly not as often as Alien since she is a lot more present in public ages than me. If someone asks for help on public chat, I won't refuse to help.

I did in the first weekend shout to everyone in the public city: "The XYZ pod's portal will open in a few".

I didn't do it in any disrespect, I did it because I was running down the hallway to the museum knowing there was a portal coming up. The city emptied in a matter of a minute, no one told me to stop or whatever, they were indeed happy I told them.

-------------------
And let's say I'm a newcomer. I heard some "Annabelle" girl shouting: "The XYZ pod's portal will open in a few" Big deal! As a newcomer...

what is XYZ?
what is a pod?
what is a portal?
what does she means by "in a few"? seconds, minutes I dunno

All I see is one shouting avvie running down the hallway to a location that I've been told being the museum but I have no idea yet what to do with this information...

That's how a newcomer reacts!
------------------

There is also a private city like TrapperDave told before. If you wants to be not spoiled of anything, go there, try to solve the insanely hard puzzle of the pods yourself. It's feasible, I heard some solved it, great for them!

99.9% of the explorers prefer the D'ni clock websites and be told when and where the next portal will open.

Because at this rythmn...
We should also told people to stop calling "Door runs" in public chat as it spoiled everything about the Spiral Journey mechanism!
We should also condamn people making marker quests in Minkata because it spoiled everything about the Scar Journey!

--------------
If you want to go through a day without any news, would you go see twitter or facebook or your newspaper website, open the radio or open the TV? I guess the answer would be no (as in I don't want to be spoiled by what's going on around in this world)
---------------

Same principle online, if you want to go through the whole game without any spoils, why are you linking right off from the KI device in Hood Gahreesen to the Nexus to the Ferry Terminal?

I'm not saying here, one group as the truth on their side, the other one is wrong, I'm just trying to make less dramatic the whole issue and not let this can of worms get bigger and bigger...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:16 pm 
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For the record, I would always shout out Pod portal times (if I knew them and gave a hoot). The pod puzzle is absolutely horrible and not a puzzle at all (also, the timing is off. The Payiferen portal opens before the stones are illuminated). It's a waiting game. Potentially one that could drive players off. Those Ages need to be removed from the game or have that stupid puzzle taken out.

It really just shows how messed up some of the community is that we're abusing other players for announcing something that saves players time. Should we start abusing people who help with the Delin and Tsogal "puzzles" too? Why not? People should have to randomly stumble into a garden Age with 3-6 other people in it! Otherwise you're spoiling it!

I'd post more, but this is already a massive waste of my time. Get a life, people.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:09 pm 
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Alien wrote:
I'm fed up of being told how I can or can't play the game.
Who are you to tell me, or anyone they can't help people?
I was lectured about this exact subject when a new player asked , yes ASKED in public chat which book was the Negliahn portal. So I told her. I then got told off for giving spoilers in public chat. If a player asks a question, am I supposed to not answer? not help? To not do so would be rude and against the spirit of the community as I see it.

But there are people who think they have a right to dictate to others how to play this game. If a player wants to ask for help, they have every right to. If another player wants to answer that question and help, they have every right to. NO-ONE has any right to dictate to others how to play the game. NO-ONE.

Well, quite frankly I've had enough of this attitude from people, so I am taking a break from MOULa.
You can all bicker among yourselves, I'm out of it. Have fun.

Bye.


Any time explorers ask questions, it is friendly and helpful to answer. If I am concerned about spoilers, I may give them a warning first and give them a chance to change their minds, but in the case of the Negilahn book, I too would have answered the question. But it's easy enough to answer a single explorer's question with private chat if the answer includes spoilers. I just fail to understand why using private chat to answer such questions is such a serious issue for some people, and no one has provided me with an adequate explanation for that yet.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:14 pm 
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m.a.x.2.0 wrote:
Just for starters, let not (what I saw myself happen) a singular event be made into
MAJOR CONFLICT BETWEEN PLAYER GROUP A and PLAYER GROUP B!!! And yet again
start screaming for the Cavern Police! AS THERE IS NO CONFLICT! (read that again!)

We can never "educate" people to behave in a certain way, if they don't want to...
To some extent we can only tell them "this is how I should have done that". It is very
naive to believe that ones "own" way to play MOULa (or any other MMORPG) is the
ONLY way to play! We are all individuals, behave individually. And that is what makes
this community great!

Although I agree, we should not "spill the beans" in Public Chat. I myself (I think) have
never done that but use PM's to just give some clues, leading to right direction. This
is what I do. Others do differently. But I don't lecture anybody on "how" they should
do it... We are, most of us at least, grown ups. And we are nobody's mom...

But that point was made very clear by somebodies, by some people that agreed that
they disagreed... And THAT fight kept going almost an hour!!! So, MY question is...

IS the point of try winning every one of these kind of arguments just for the sake of
it more important than the well being of the Cavern?!? IF so, then go ahead. I left the
you people to fight it out! Alien (one of the most dedicated and helpful players) says
the same above. These kind of "incidents" are most likely to empty the cavern. How
pleased would you be, if you "won" the argument but notice you're all alone!?

And please, don't see this above as accepting the way, "people here give spoilers".
As it isn't just true!

THERE IS NO CONFLICT! As I see it, at least. But then again, I might just been blind for
some 4+ years, being in the cavern several times every week.

There is no conflict, but you always "see" what you want to see, and can create one!
And there is no need to create drama only for the sake of it...


I would not have posted the message that I did if it had been a single incident, but I have witnessed Pod announcements being made on many occasions by many different people, and polite requests that people not post such spoilers in public chat are usually greeted with hostility or dismissiveness.

But if you will reread my original post, you will find that rather than trying to "educate" people or win an argument, I asked people to help me come up with alternative methods that would satisfy the wish of long term players to spread Pod announcement information without revealing spoilers in public chat. That is not arguing a point; it is searching for solutions.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:23 pm 
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TrapperDave wrote:
The other person can "block" and solve their problem themselves.
If you don't want to hear people talk then don't go to the public city, stay in your private ages! Or if you don't like what's going on or what you are hearing then relto out.
Why in the world are there police in the cavern? Cyan has it's rules and reports can be submitted, that is all that is necessary.


That would be a great solution except in those situations where new explorers have come to the Cavern, which they must do at some point for certain parts of the game, and they hear spoilers before they have a chance to link out or even before they realize they're hearing spoilers. Remember, new explorers won't know how to block people in their KI, won't know which areas they have to avoid to stay away from people, and may not even have a KI yet meaning they won't be able to block other explorers. And once a puzzle is spoiled for someone, there's no way to take the spoiler back; it has been spoiled forever.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:25 pm 
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I remember back in the beginning of URU when the Guild of Greeters and others offered tips in Cavern etiquette. The general rule of thumb was that if someone asked a question that could be considered a spoiler, and there were other unknown players around, people would PM their hints or answers to the player with the question... rather than assuming everyone in the vicinity also wanted to hear the answer.

Though I sure do agree with Whilyam about the Pod Portal schedules' obfuscated puzzle design. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:49 pm 
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Annabelle wrote:
-------------------
And let's say I'm a newcomer. I heard some "Annabelle" girl shouting: "The XYZ pod's portal will open in a few" Big deal! As a newcomer...

what is XYZ?
what is a pod?
what is a portal?
what does she means by "in a few"? seconds, minutes I dunno

All I see is one shouting avvie running down the hallway to a location that I've been told being the museum but I have no idea yet what to do with this information...

That's how a newcomer reacts!
------------------

There is also a private city like TrapperDave told before. If you wants to be not spoiled of anything, go there, try to solve the insanely hard puzzle of the pods yourself. It's feasible, I heard some solved it, great for them!

99.9% of the explorers prefer the D'ni clock websites and be told when and where the next portal will open.

Because at this rythmn...
We should also told people to stop calling "Door runs" in public chat as it spoiled everything about the Spiral Journey mechanism!
We should also condamn people making marker quests in Minkata because it spoiled everything about the Scar Journey!

---------------

Same principle online, if you want to go through the whole game without any spoils, why are you linking right off from the KI device in Hood Gahreesen to the Nexus to the Ferry Terminal?


Try to remember, new explorers won't know what the Ferry Terminal is, may never have heard of D'ni let alone Ae'gura, probably don't know that there is both a public instance of the city and a neighborhood instance (It took several weeks of exploring before I learned that.), and are unlikely to know that there are other players in certain areas who will shout out spoilers in public chat. They may not know how to block other users yet, and may not even have their KI at that time which means that they cannot block other players, and by the time they have figured out how to block such spoilers, it has already been spoiled. Besides, even if you have a KI and know how to use it, by the time you learn that you need to block a user because he posts spoilers, you probably learned it when he spoiled something for you.

If someone knows a less spoilery way to organize garden door runs, I would be all for it. Personally speaking, I never tell the other explorers that there are Relto pages in the gardens, though I may encourage them to explore the gardens more thoroughly for themselves after the door run, but if someone requests a door run, he probably already knows a lot about how it works. As for Minkata, by the time an explorer has collected the green markers and the red markers, he is likely to understand that playing such a marker game is likely to spoil the Age for him. Including a warning in the marker game itself would be ideal, of course, and if he chooses to ignore that warning, that's his choice.

Yes, a new explorer will not likely understand the significance of the first Pod announcement he hears, but once that explorer finds the Pods, he now knows that 1. He is looking for a portal in the Pod. and 2. That portal is on a regular schedule, which is the major spoiler itself for the Pods.

So far, all the suggestions that everyone has offered have been things that new explorers should do to avoid spoilers, and I don't mean to pick on you with that Annabelle, even though I'm posting it in my reply to you, but the new players don't start with the tools and knowledge they need to protect themselves from spoilers in public chat in the city. If we want the Uru community to grow, I think it's important to make more of an effort to protect new players from public spoilers they didn't ask to get. Posting such spoilers not only ruins the joy of solving the puzzles themselves, it can also garner ill-will in new players who may feel that they aren't being treated with consideration.

So again, I ask, what can we - as the more experienced explorers - do to make Pod announcements without spoiling the Pods for new players?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:54 pm 
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Emor D'ni Lap wrote:
I remember back in the beginning of URU when the Guild of Greeters and others offered tips in Cavern etiquette. The general rule of thumb was that if someone asked a question that could be considered a spoiler, and there were other unknown players around, people would PM their hints or answers to the player with the question... rather than assuming everyone in the vicinity also wanted to hear the answer.

Though I sure do agree with Whilyam about the Pod Portal schedules' obfuscated puzzle design. :roll:


And I would agree with that etiquette if it were for a real puzzle, like someone shouting the solution to the Kadish scopes is clearly out of line.

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