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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:07 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
For the record, I would always shout out Pod portal times (if I knew them and gave a hoot). The pod puzzle is absolutely horrible and not a puzzle at all (also, the timing is off. The Payiferen portal opens before the stones are illuminated). It's a waiting game. Potentially one that could drive players off. Those Ages need to be removed from the game or have that stupid puzzle taken out.

It really just shows how messed up some of the community is that we're abusing other players for announcing something that saves players time. Should we start abusing people who help with the Delin and Tsogal "puzzles" too? Why not? People should have to randomly stumble into a garden Age with 3-6 other people in it! Otherwise you're spoiling it!

I'd post more, but this is already a massive waste of my time. Get a life, people.


I'm not sure how a polite request that people not use public chat to broadcast spoilers qualifies as abuse, but I'm sorry that you feel abused. And I think we all get that you hate the Pods. What I don't get is why you aren't willing to let the people who could enjoy the Pods enjoy them at their own pace? I enjoyed figuring out the Pods for myself, as much as I was allowed to do. And when people get to the point where they are tired of hassling with the Pods, it will be only a matter of minutes for them to run a search on the Web or go to the Cavern and ask for help. And if you're really concerned about them spinning their wheels and getting needlessly frustrated, when you meet new players, you could always tell them that you didn't like the Pods yourself, thought they were a stupid puzzle, and ask if the new players would like any hints or the answers.

I also don't get why saving people time is such an important goal? It's really a minor inconvenience to experienced players to go back and collect the Pods, but public chat Pod announcements spoil the Pods for all time for the new players. For the experience players, it's so easy to call up a website clock for the portals, and if you miss them one day, they'll be open again in just 16 hrs and again in another 16 hrs and so on. You only have to be there once to grab the wedge, it only takes a few minutes, and then it's time to go back to the Cavern and wish there was more to do in the game!

As for the garden door runs being spoilery, I would welcome any serious suggestions to improve that situation, just as I am still hoping for serious suggestions on how to broadcast Pod announcements to the people who want them while protecting new players from spoilers.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:24 pm 
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Poor newbies, they’re such delicate flowers, they have to be protected from too much information. How could they cope with cruelties such as ogres announcing portals’ dates(1) or door runs? Or ghastly bots sending them creepy messages such as “I’m moving from X to Y”(2)? They will surely run away, screaming, their psyche forever scarred.
Those who really want no spoilers have absolutely no way to know that where there’s people, there might be spoilers, and everything said in the public chat will get permanently imprinted in their memories.
The end is nigh! Repent, sinners!

(1) Never mind they might not find out there are portals in the first place otherwise, as it happened to me.
(2) Never mind they took the effort of adding them in their Buddies list, since the bots never move from their Ages.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:29 pm 
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This isn't a polite request, this is a load of passive aggressive BS. I'm not even convinced you're not just a troll, considering you're only 3 days old. Moreover, people in this thread have been talking about the abuse they've received over this sort of thing. There's no pod Age "experience", there's no puzzle to figure out, it's glorified time zone conversion. Saving people time on frustrating and poorly-made puzzles is a great goal.

Seriously, go do something useful with your life aside from posting paragraphs in a forum. No one here is interested in your ideas to tell people how to play the game.

Also, yes korovev. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:30 pm 
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You take time to respond to everyone Siren, that's awesome!

Well... what about a Cavern Etiquette like Emor suggested then? I would do it very easily, if someone ask for something in public chat, I could answer it in PM instead.

But why would I also restrained myself of shouting to everyone there's a pod's portal coming up but...
like whilyam said, this puzzle is too much insane to be done properly. I would classify Minkata as easy compared to the pods. So what are the advert effects of telling a pod is coming up? I would say nil...


@Siren: if you see a newbie in the public ae'gura great chances they got their operating KI devices because you cannot link using the Nexus without.

And remember that Emor is talking about an organised group dedicated to help newbies (the GoG). In public city, you are thrown in the middle of Time Square and you want to go to Broadway, you're not in some Tourist Info Centre... The bypasser may be polite, some maybe be as puzzled as you are being themselves tourists, some may just ignore your question, some may be very rude, etc. In a Tourist Info Centre, you see there employees who have one mission: help tourists!

Same parallel between GoG's Hood and Public city. I think the issue is not how we each act in public city but more why the GoG is so deserted and not serving its purpose. There might not be as much newcomers as you might think also. I helped a lot of "old timers" in the first days because they had forgotten everything about this and that... They did want spoilers. Like I said, it's hard to draw a line, a perfect one.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:53 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
This isn't a polite request, this is a load of passive aggressive BS. I'm not even convinced you're not just a troll, considering you're only 3 days old. Moreover, people in this thread have been talking about the abuse they've received over this sort of thing. There's no pod Age "experience", there's no puzzle to figure out, it's glorified time zone conversion. Saving people time on frustrating and poorly-made puzzles is a great goal.

Seriously, go do something useful with your life aside from posting paragraphs in a forum. No one here is interested in your ideas to tell people how to play the game.

Also, yes korovev. :lol:


I just joined the forums, that is true, and although I don't see why it should matter, my spouse and I purchased Myst when it was first released and played it without hints, tips, or spoilers. We purchased Myst Masterpiece edition and realMyst when they came out, and purchased the original hardback books of the novels. We purchased Riven when it was released and upgraded our graphics card in order to play it, which we did without hints, tips, or spoilers. We purchased and played Myst III: Exile, Myst IV: Revelations, and Uru: CC - all without hints, tips, or spoilers. We also purchased End of Ages, but I haven't actually played it yet. I purchased iOS copies of Myst, Riven, The Manhole, Bug Chucker, and Stoneship. I purchased the box copy of Obduction. I first logged into MO:ULa about a year ago and played for a few weeks to check out the online content that wasn't in the single-player game. I wanted to try to figure things out for myself. I didn't stay.

I have seen people make very polite requests not to spoil the Pods. I have made polite requests. When those requests are routinely treated with contempt, hostility, and derision, politeness tends to wear off.

I do not believe that you speak for everyone on the forums, no matter how long you have been playing Uru Live and no matter how much D'ni "cred" you have, but if no one is interested in the topic, then it will die on its own. But I am not trying to tell anyone how to play the game; I am merely asking people not to force their way of handling the Pods on everyone else. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:12 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Poor newbies, they’re such delicate flowers, they have to be protected from too much information. How could they cope with cruelties such as ogres announcing portals’ dates(1) or door runs? Or ghastly bots sending them creepy messages such as “I’m moving from X to Y”(2)? They will surely run away, screaming, their psyche forever scarred.
Those who really want no spoilers have absolutely no way to know that where there’s people, there might be spoilers, and everything said in the public chat will get permanently imprinted in their memories.
The end is nigh! Repent, sinners!

(1) Never mind they might not find out there are portals in the first place otherwise, as it happened to me.
(2) Never mind they took the effort of adding them in their Buddies list, since the bots never move from their Ages.


Where there are people, there might be sexual harassment. That doesn't make it okay.

I myself don't understand why someone who added the Bots to his Buddies list would mind getting messages from them, but that's a discussion for another thread. However, it is nothing more than basic Netiquette not to broadcast public spoilers for puzzles in a puzzle game. I'm frankly shocked that the attitude of a significant part of the Uru community is that the temporary convenience of long term players is the overriding consideration in regards to letting newcomers enjoy the game in their own way. If a newcomer who wanted to figure out the Pods for himself got them forever spoiled by Pod announcements, is that what you would say to him? "Aww! Poor wittle noobie got the wittle puzzle spoiled and now can never solve it for himself! Are you traumatized, you delicate wittle fwower? Aww!" Because if there are many people in the Cavern who consider this kind of insulting condescension to be an acceptable way to treat newcomers, then I'm not surprised that new players are failing to stick around. And telling such a newcomer "The Pods are a stupid puzzle, so shut up and be grateful to me for spoiling them for you!" is hardly any friendlier. And considering that the future health of the system probably depends at least somewhat on new players coming and deciding to stay and donate and that Cyan seems to want to keep the system open for new players and there will probably be quite a few once Obduction is released, perhaps people who don't want to be hassled with showing consideration for newcomers would be happier on a shard that only permits long term players of Uru Live. That's just a suggestion, of course.

I would very much appreciate it if everyone would actually discuss the original topic of the thread which was coming up with ways to tell people who want to be told when a portal is about to open in a way that doesn't broadcast spoilers to people who would rather not hear them.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:37 pm 
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Annabelle wrote:
You take time to respond to everyone Siren, that's awesome!

Well... what about a Cavern Etiquette like Emor suggested then? I would do it very easily, if someone ask for something in public chat, I could answer it in PM instead.

But why would I also restrained myself of shouting to everyone there's a pod's portal coming up but...
like whilyam said, this puzzle is too much insane to be done properly. I would classify Minkata as easy compared to the pods. So what are the advert effects of telling a pod is coming up? I would say nil...


@Siren: if you see a newbie in the public ae'gura great chances they got their operating KI devices because you cannot link using the Nexus without.

And remember that Emor is talking about an organised group dedicated to help newbies (the GoG). In public city, you are thrown in the middle of Time Square and you want to go to Broadway, you're not in some Tourist Info Centre... The bypasser may be polite, some maybe be as puzzled as you are being themselves tourists, some may just ignore your question, some may be very rude, etc. In a Tourist Info Centre, you see there employees who have one mission: help tourists!

Same parallel between GoG's Hood and Public city. I think the issue is not how we each act in public city but more why the GoG is so deserted and not serving its purpose. There might not be as much newcomers as you might think also. I helped a lot of "old timers" in the first days because they had forgotten everything about this and that... They did want spoilers. Like I said, it's hard to draw a line, a perfect one.


I understand why many people might not want to solve the Pods. I didn't feel that way myself, but I don't expect everyone to do things the same. But it's more respectful to people to let them decide for themselves when they are tired of trying to figure something out and would like a nudge, hint, or outright spoiler. Something that seems impossibly difficult to one person might be relatively obvious to another. People have different ways of looking at things. Something that is tremendously frustrating to one person might be a tremendously enjoyable challenge to another, even if the end result is kind of a letdown.

That's a good point about the KI. The linking stone in the neighborhood will go to the neighborhood instance, not the public city. Just the same, even if you have your KI and are a whiz in using it, having to rely on the ignore function to block spoilers or avoiding the Cavern altogether, which you actually MUST visit simply to get to Minkata, Jalak, and the Pods ... well, that seems like we're creating a toxic environment for newcomers. "Welcome to Myst Online: Uru Live where you can enjoy the experience of playing a puzzle game in the Myst saga and solving puzzles among a community of friendly explorers! But don't actually go near any other explorers or it's your own fault if you overhear spoilers!"

There's only so much that newcomers should be expected to do to avoid spoilers they don't want in a puzzle game. We, as more experienced players, have the capacity to greatly shape their experience of Uru for better or worse. I am willing to take direction from newcomers on the kind of experience they would like to have.

And there are newcomers. I was a newcomer to Uru: Live just a year ago. I met other people who said they were solving all the puzzles, even the Journey of the Hand Ages, for the first time. I met another such newcomer just last night. There are newcomers logging in, but I don't think many of them are staying.


Last edited by Siren Drake on Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:39 pm 
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Yeah, I know sarcasm can be hard to understand :mrgreen:

Anyway, to answer your question, here’s an idea. Every Pod is identified by a number:
  • 6 Tetsonot
  • 13 Payiferen
  • 18 Negilahn
  • 25 Dereno

You could therefore announce it as “Portal #13 will open in about 10 minutes.”

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:41 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Yeah, I know sarcasm can be hard to understand :mrgreen:

Anyway, to answer your question, here’s an idea. Every Pod is identified by a number:
  • 6 Tetsonot
  • 13 Payiferen
  • 18 Negilahn
  • 25 Dereno

You could therefore announce it as “Portal #13 will open in about 10 minutes.”


Excellent suggestion! I knew I could rely on the creativity and inventiveness of Uru explorers to come up with brilliant solutions! So what do the rest of you guys think?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:05 pm 
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@ Siren Drake
OK I should have clarified myself before, and stated how I handle "help" or "spoiler requests".
When a player asks for help in the public chat like in the city or in any public age.
I immediately go to Private Chat (PM). I ask them how much help do you want ? Do you just want a little hint so I don't spoil the puzzle for you? Or do you really want the complete answer. If you want I can go along to your private age and help and nudge you when you get stuck. Or I can go along and completely run you through the puzzle. It is a choice they should make.
But then I will help them and give them all they want.
--
What is irritating is when you use PM in city & the other player crashes & it's automatically posted to public chat. I wish it would not even go out then, it should get canceled. This has happened to me on a few occasions.
--
However as far as the Pods go. I think it is no big deal ! Like Annabelle said before 99% use the online web calendars; which are public and a spoiler in themselves. I think when a player gets to the city a few times and hears the words door runs & pod portals, at 1st they think what are those? Then I think they are aware that it is a spoiler and if they want to decide to do it themselves they can make that choice. In other words I have been sent two Marker Games for Minkata. Now I have 3 choices,
use one of the two games ( spoilers), or choice #3 do it the puzzle way. Nothing has been spoiled for me to this point. It is up to me whether I pick the easy way and follow the spoilers. And I have decided for my own pleasure to do it the puzzle way because it is in line with my RL work & I enjoy seeing how precise the compass bearings are to the run speed.
--
So I really try to stay in PM with a new players questions. But mistakes happen from time to time.
It's just a game and if a new player hears about the Pods, they can decide not to go there right then & there!
They can decide " No", I will find this out on my own the puzzle way and do it later some other time, the puzzle way. Even though they heard the public announcement, they do not have to obey it.
Good luck to them finding the next portal time :) I think everybody is mature enough to make their own decisions. After all it's their game and they can decide what to do and how to do it.
It can be a grey line at times.
--
End of subject for me :) I do not care to hammer this to death !
Happy exploring everybody :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:32 pm 
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TrapperDave wrote:
@ Siren Drake
OK I should have clarified myself before, and stated how I handle "help" or "spoiler requests".
When a player asks for help in the public chat like in the city or in any public age.
I immediately go to Private Chat (PM). I ask them how much help do you want ? Do you just want a little hint so I don't spoil the puzzle for you? Or do you really want the complete answer. If you want I can go along to your private age and help and nudge you when you get stuck. Or I can go along and completely run you through the puzzle. It is a choice they should make.
But then I will help them and give them all they want.
--
What is irritating is when you use PM in city & the other player crashes & it's automatically posted to public chat. I wish it would not even go out then, it should get canceled. This has happened to me on a few occasions.
--
However as far as the Pods go. I think it is no big deal ! Like Annabelle said before 99% use the online web calendars; which are public and a spoiler in themselves. I think when a player gets to the city a few times and hears the words door runs & pod portals, at 1st they think what are those? Then I think they are aware that it is a spoiler and if they want to decide to do it themselves they can make that choice. In other words I have been sent two Marker Games for Minkata. Now I have 3 choices,
use one of the two games ( spoilers), or choice #3 do it the puzzle way. Nothing has been spoiled for me to this point. It is up to me whether I pick the easy way and follow the spoilers. And I have decided for my own pleasure to do it the puzzle way because it is in line with my RL work & I enjoy seeing how precise the compass bearings are to the run speed.
--
So I really try to stay in PM with a new players questions. But mistakes happen from time to time.
It's just a game and if a new player hears about the Pods, they can decide not to go there right then & there!
They can decide " No", I will find this out on my own the puzzle way and do it later some other time, the puzzle way. Even though they heard the public announcement, they do not have to obey it.
Good luck to them finding the next portal time :) I think everybody is mature enough to make their own decisions. After all it's their game and they can decide what to do and how to do it.
It can be a grey line at times.
--
End of subject for me :) I do not care to hammer this to death !
Happy exploring everybody :)


Technical glitches like the one you described are unavoidable. For that matter, sooner or later, all of us are likely to slip up and blurt something out in public chat we shouldn'ta oughtn'ta, and different people have different ideas about what constitutes a spoiler, which is exactly why I try to err on the side of caution. It has never been my intention to crucify anyone for inadvertent spoilers. I just want to find a way to avoid needless spoilers while still getting the information out there about when the portals are due to the people who want that info.

I recognize that a lot of people don't consider it a spoiler to say that the portal is opening in Dereno, but that goes back to the whole thing about different people having different ideas about what constitutes a spoiler. Personally, I consider it the major spoiler to be told that there is a portal in each Pod that opens on a schedule. After that, it's just computation, and I am not the only player who sees it that way. And yes, the website Pod clock calculators are spoilers, but they are outside the game, but new players have control over whether they search for information about the Uru game on the Web. Even new players have to assume responsibility for their own choices, but they have no control over what experienced players choose to reveal in public chat in the Cavern on autoshout when the new players link in for the first time.

So what did you think about the idea of korovev's idea of saying "Portal 25 opening in half an hour." instead of "Tetsonot portal in half an hour."? I thought it was a great idea!

Hope I don't try your patience with my reply!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:46 pm 
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I was going to write something arguing for reducing blatant spoilers in public chat as much as possible, but then I realised that you people don't give a rat's behind, as would just rather that we people who would rather the newbies had a choice whether or not the game gets spoiled for them while they hang around with other players. So I'm going to leave you all to your perfect vision of an Uru where everything catered to the old timers, with their vitally important low KI numbers. Have a really bad day.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:12 pm 
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Anyway, I doubt people leave because oh mein Gott they’ve spoiled a puzzle. I think they leave partly because they get frustrated with some puzzles that have no immediate objective (Uru Live is somewhat of an acquired taste, compared to more popular MMOGs), and partly because at ‘endgame’ it’s more of a ‘glorified chat-room’ (and not everybody wants to partecipate to the ‘Community’).
It’s my understanding this is why the upcoming DIRT shard will include ‘dailies’ of some sort.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:13 pm 
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KathAveara wrote:
I was going to write something arguing for reducing blatant spoilers in public chat as much as possible, but then I realised that you people don't give a rat's behind, as would just rather that we people who would rather the newbies had a choice whether or not the game gets spoiled for them while they hang around with other players. So I'm going to leave you all to your perfect vision of an Uru where everything catered to the old timers, with their vitally important low KI numbers. Have a really bad day.


Sigh! I suspect that there is a certain amount of the attitude that you describe, but if I may play Devil's advocate for a moment, someone who has been part of the Uru Live community and donating money for years actually does have a claim to having made more valuable contributions than a brand new player who just logged in. Of course that's only the value given to the community so far, and it doesn't justify rudeness or lack of consideration. We also have no idea how much a new player might contribute if he is driven off before he has a chance to feel like a part of the community.

Tensions seem to be high for everyone since the system crash, but I think most people, even those who are used to making regular Pod announcements, would be happy to make their Pod announcements in a way that won't spoil the Pods for newcomers. I see it more as a case of conflicting interests: newcomers want to play the game without being given the answers; old timers want the convenience of broadcasting Pod times. My goal in starting this thread was to find ways to satisfy both of those goals at the same time. There may be a few cases of people who genuinely don't care about the feelings of newcomers, but I believe those are few and far between.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:28 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Anyway, I doubt people leave because oh mein Gott they’ve spoiled a puzzle. I think they leave partly because they get frustrated with some puzzles that have no immediate objective (Uru Live is somewhat of an acquired taste, compared to more popular MMOGs), and partly because at ‘endgame’ it’s more of a ‘glorified chat-room’ (and not everybody wants to partecipate to the ‘Community’).
It’s my understanding this is why the upcoming DIRT shard will include ‘dailies’ of some sort.


The truth is, none of us know how many new players have logged in and left without staying let alone why they left. I do know that it didn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling when someone learned that I hadn't solved a particular Age and immediately wanted to tell me something about it even though I hadn't asked for hints or nudges, and even if I had said that I didn't want them. Having the puzzle spoiled wasn't the issue so much as the feeling that I didn't appreciate the lack of consideration.

I can only say what my own experience was, and that first time I was in a Pod when a portal opened up, I had no idea about the portals or what I was supposed to do in the Pods. Seeing that portal for the very first time was a moment with a little bit of magic in it. If someone had spoiled it for me by telling me: "Hey! The portal in Payiferen is opening in 10 minutes." that moment with its little bit of magic would have been forever lost to me. Would I have cried? Of course not. Would I have considered that person forever my enemy? Of course not. Especially if they hadn't meant to spoil anything for me. But if they had meant to spoil it for me without regard for my feelings, I would have been justly resentful. I also would have been distrustful of that person for some time to come, but putting that person on Ignore would not have brought back the lost magic of that moment.

And again, I see no problems with people warning newcomers that the puzzles in certain Ages are unpopular and that if they start to get frustrated with something, don't be afraid to ask for a hint or a nudge. That leaves it up to the newcomers to judge for themselves when they are ready for assistance. But anyone who has spent weeks fussing with calculations, observations, and conjectures concerning the Pods is clearly getting something out of the process itself, even if he isn't thrilled with the final payoff.


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