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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:27 pm 
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@ Acorn1:
:) It really was not a Spoiler, as I know you know that :)
It was just a joke, true in away, but did not spoil anything
--
* Edit: Thank you much ! I removed it entirely, it was a mistake having it there.
and I wholeheartedly agree that it is a wonderful Age that everyone should visit!
I made another mistake about 7 years ago and that mistake was:
I thought I was wrong, but I was right :) :wink:

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Last edited by TrapperDave on Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:42 pm 
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Annabelle wrote:
You cannot force everyone to do what you want them to do.

People would be unrealistic to expect everyone to change. But I highly doubt anyone expected they were going to be able to eliminate ALL of the behavior they are trying to discourage.

They probably wanted to encourage people to think about it, and HOPED that SOME would agree.

And to make it clear, I don't really have much of a side in this actual pod portal spoilers argument. I just wish this debate could happen without people acting like any side is sooo evil, or being 'too fragile' just because of what they think would be the ideal way for someone to treat a new player is. People will have different opinions about what should be done in a lot of social situations!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:03 am 
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@ Ehren:
Ehren said: " I just wish this debate could happen without people acting like any side is sooo evil, or being 'too fragile' just because of what they think would be the ideal way for someone to treat a new player is."
Good point Ehren :) I agree 100% with you! I was just trying to put out all the variables to the whole thing. Happy Exploring :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:18 am 
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@ ehren:

But that's the point here actually...

ehren wrote:
People will have different opinions about what should be done in a lot of social situations!


I'm all in to talk about a given issue when there is a clear solution... but here we are shoveling clouds (which is a transliteration of a French expression: "Pelleter des nuages") because we are debating over a social behaviour: whether or not spoil puzzles solutions in a public context.

You got my opinion on this already:
I'm aware it might be view by some explorers as being bad behaviours to give out spoilers in public chat, so YES I'm willing to keep it on private if my help is needed.

I just try to expose the blatant reality versus the ideal view of certain people here.

What I see is odd though. Some like KathAveera and Nicoleleigh just slammed the door, saying ok we are out of this debate! For what reason ?!? I dunno. Nicoleleigh wants Cyan to lock down this topic! For what reason ?!? I dunno.

Nobody attacked anyone on this debate, no forum rule has been infringed, I'm clueless, speechless...

And now ehren says there is a "war" between the "sooo evil" side and the 'too fragile" side... Again I'm clueless, speechless

Or maybe not... maybe because ehren already gave the conclusion of everything debated here:
Quote:
People will have different opinions about what should be done in a lot of social situations!


I will not slam the door myself, but there's nothing I can add if some just stare at the tree in front of themselves and don't see the forest expanding behind it. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:34 am 
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Sorry Annabelle.
The point I was making is that the topic
seemed to be going in circles. We all understand
about giving away clues that will ruin the game for
anyone.
I was saying close the thread if the bickering just
goes on and on. I meant nothing by it. It just seemed
we weren't getting anywhere on the subject.
I apologize if I came across to heavy handed.
Sorry, I did not mean to upset anyone.

-Nicoleleigh-

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:55 am 
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Annabelle wrote:
I'm all in to talk about a given issue when there is a clear solution...

That's not good! Issues without clear solutions are the ones that need to be talked about the most because of the very fact that there is no one clear answer.

Annabelle wrote:
And now ehren says there is a "war" between the "sooo evil" side and the 'too fragile" side... Again I'm clueless, speechless

I don't understand what you are trying to say. I didn't even call it a war. Also, I didn't actually call either side evil or fragile. I'm mostly just saying that people shouldn't be so mean...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:42 am 
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Siren Drake wrote:
Some methods are:

1. Restrict Pod announcement chat messages to one's Buddies List rather than to public chat.

This does keep it out of public chat but it won't avoid inadvertantly informing at least some new players.

2. Write a KI mail instead of using chat. The KI mail could then be updated as needed.

This is to my mind the only way, from the list you provided, to avoid infoming new players who do not wish for any spoilers. However, it would still most likely be sent to buddies, to which new players may already be included. One way around this may be to involve the Guild of Messengers. For example, people could subscribe to a list in order to be informed of the upcoming portal. One problem with this is that it would increase the workload for the guild and as I cannot speak for them, have no idea if they would be willing or indeed if there are even enough active members to cover it.

Another problem that exists with this method is that not everyone notices their KI flash upon receiveing notification of incoming mail. There may be a way to avoid sending the mail altogether. Assuming the GoMe approved it, the people who subscribed could simply be added to a unique GoMe avatars buddy list and the person or persons with access to it could simply announce to their buddies who subsrcibed that a pod was imminent.

3. Use some sort of code when speaking in public chat. For example, instead of saying "The portal will open in Payiferen in 15 minutes!" just say something like "Next event in 15 mins. Send me a private message for details." Then you can warn strangers that the answer will include a major spoiler before you continue.

I see Korovev has provided a solution. This seems a reasonable compromise. Although, even if code is used it will still peak the curiosity of some players and the person announcing the pod may also require the pod. If too many people PM'd them it would put them in danger of missing it themselves. Of course, self sacrifice is a noble attribute, but we don't all have the same amount of time to devote to the game, and someone may have come online just for the pods but still wish to announce to the cavern. It could increase frustration and potentially limit said persons desire to engage at all.

Finally, even if a compromise is reached and the majority of seasoned explorers adopt the new procedure, which ever one that is, it would be unrealistic to expect everyone to adhere to it. My thinking is that even 50% would be an impressive figure. My concern is, that the wedge that already exists between players who strictly follow etiquette and those who don't will merely widen and greater resentment may arise.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:11 pm 
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Siren Drake started this thread with concern over spoiling the Pods by way of announcing Pod Portal times in Public Chat in the City.
--
Ehren said: "That's not good! Issues without clear solutions are the ones that need to be talked about the most because of the very fact that there is no one clear answer."
--
SmilingOne said:"Finally, even if a compromise is reached and the majority of seasoned explorers adopt the new procedure, which ever one that is, it would be unrealistic to expect everyone to adhere to it."
--
I have said before: No one should reveal Spoilers in Public Chat. ( a hard core statement, but we need to be a little flexible)
--
I've been beating around the bush with random comments, wrestling with this in my own mind. It is a tough one! I am not arguing anything & I will abide by whatever is decided by the majority. Maybe we should take a poll and vote on the subject ?
--
Getting right to the point: I think announcing Pod Portals Times in Public Chat is OK. Now I sound like a hypocrite! ( sorry Siren Drake) Let me explain why. Announcing the Pod Portals has been done a long time and I think it is a community service that the majority is in favor of. Also leading someone to the Museum and showing them where the Pod Books are, OR to the Library and showing them those books is O.K. also. Here is my reasoning on it. You are only showing them the doorway (linking books) to the Age, but you are not revealing the puzzle in that age and spoiling it. Big deal, taking them to a doorway. While in the public city there are a zillion chat lines streaming by, it is unavoidable to hear something like a clue. For example a New Player comes to the city and runs up to the sign and even auto-shouts: " I need someone to help turn my Ahnonay". New Player #2 hears this request and thinks : " What is Ahnonay and turn it ?" I think this example is more of a Spoiler
than announcing Pod Portal times or equal to it, and unavoidable. Unless the spoiler is an outright blatant statement like " the cathedral stained glass combination is ..", announced in Public Chat would be a definite spoiler. So taking someone to the books and showing them the doorway to an Age, without revealing any of the puzzle or what to do there, or just naming a Age I feel does not spoil the puzzle. As SmilingOne said above it is unrealistic (to avoid everything and expect everyone to remember codes or adhere to fuzzy rules.) ( I added some)
--
:) O.K. I am ready to accept the heat. Lets take a poll and vote on this. Remember we are all equal amongst the rest :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:05 pm 
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I have an idea but it requires GOG being placed some where. Let me go check something and be right back. before this thread gets locked for all this stupid bickering.

Ok did my check unfortunately it wasn't what I expected. If the GOG was one of the first places a new explorer could reach with out a KI would be great! Seeing how they need the KI to go anywhere in the city I would suggest that the GOG be placed in the City locations ABOVE the Ferry terminal and Watchers Pub and Kirel.
IN my humble opinion this could stop a lot of so called spoiling for the new explorers and give them the assistance they need.

Now as for as peeps giving spoilers in the Public city ( sigh ) it is going to happen. I seen a time when one person wanted to show off is knowledgeable prowess by explaining all the ages right in the city even when asked not to do that.

Siren I totally understand what your saying,but, if I was a new explorer I would be scratching my head and asking "what the heck is a pod and what is this portal thing ". Then if I did know I might be a bit appreciative for the info so I wouldn't have to sit for hours on end only to miss my chance at getting the portal. (I don't really have 15 hours worth of patience :lol: )

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Last edited by Tor'i on Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Removed a questionable piece of slang-type verbiage.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:08 pm 
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I think that what we all need to understand and accept is that no-one has a mandate to define how you play MOUL.

While this thread might provide some means to address the concern that Siren Drake raised in the OP it can be no more than a convention that people choose to follow (unless Cyan elects to add it to the TOS, which is highly unlikely) and there's no point making a drama out of it if someone breaks the convention.

It's a bit like OOC players respecting IC players right to play their way and vice versa or avoiding using voice chat in public areas - there's no rule, it's just something you get to know about and, for the most part, respect.

It's all too easy for a comparative newbie to think they're simply being helpful by exuberantly blurting out a total spoiler without even realising that they're spoiling, so even if you arrive at a "solution" of e.g. only announcing portals on Buddy chat, it would be unreasonable to expect that every player knows about the convention or even accepts it. Even in casual conversation it's easy to let slip a comment that someone may find spoilerish. It happens in RL, it'll happen in the Cavern.

However, I tend to agree with some others here that a pod portal announcement maybe isn't much of a spoiler unless you've at least understood something of the context - someone running down your street yelling "Albuquerque in five minutes!" doesn't mean a whole lot unless you already know there might be a bus due to leave soon.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:52 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Top Gun wrote:
This was every bit a puzzle, and what's more, it was unique from all others in Uru in that it was a community puzzle. It would take a single person an inordinate amount of time, or else extraordinary good luck, to catch enough random portal openings to piece together what was going on. Instead, the entire community pooled its collective resources and were able to solve the mechanics of the Age (and probably more quickly than Cyan expected, to boot).

And that is the problem: it was a one time effort. The nature of the pods is now as surprising as the identity of Rosebud in Citizen Kane. Anything can happen, but I find unlikely for newcomers to gather again the numbers and the momentum to redo all that, when they’re likely to be welcomed with a “yeah, yeah, we know” in the public Ae’gura.

You're absolutely right, it's pretty much a given that the community-wide process of figuring things out can't be recaptured, and that can be viewed as a legitimate criticism against the puzzle design. However, given the "always-on" nature of MOUL, that applies to pretty much every real-time event that someone didn't get the chance to experience themselves. Just as one example, if you weren't around for "Scars," you can read about what happened, but you'll never know what it felt like.

And if you extend it further, that's somewhat true for any puzzle. Once you figure out what's going on in Ahnonay, you'll never be able to put that cat back in the bag. Just the other day, I was working my way through Kadish, and even though I had to grab some KI shots in the gallery, I knew exactly how each puzzle worked, so it was only a matter of moments before I had them solved.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:12 am 
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well here is a spoiler that isn't a spoiler as I pointed this out to the GOG years ago

[Reveal] Spoiler:
The time between each portal in a single pod isn't what they state in their walkthrough


I am surprised no one has picked up on that.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:19 pm 
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My only comment on this is ... having to redo all the ages is fun, but not knowing when the Pod gates open is frustrating and the way cool Pod Clock doesn't seem to be calibrated properly. Just sat in a pod expecting the gate to open for the last 10 minutes and got nothing. :(

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:39 pm 
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Dear sirpuma, when you look through the pod calendar tools on this site, you'll see my experiences with times for many of them ... They'll show you that they all vary about two to three minutes to the actual appearance ... Don't log in at the resp. calendar's specified time, but go in there about 5 minutes before (calculate in and add the time your computer needs to log into MOULa) and wait about ten minutes in the resp. pod ... as of my experience you cannot miss them then ... Good luck ... :D

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:44 pm 
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Top Gun wrote:
You're absolutely right, it's pretty much a given that the community-wide process of figuring things out can't be recaptured, and that can be viewed as a legitimate criticism against the puzzle design.

I think that puzzle was well designed (I wasn’t around at the time), but for it to be that unique episode, it had to sacrifice a bit of its repeatability for those who came afterwards. Once the secret was revealed, a spoiler was added to the game itself: the Pod Age map on the table in the Museum (for those who can read the D’ni alphabet, of course). So, I see it more like an Episode than a ‘proper’ cooperative puzzle Age, like Ahnonay or Delin.

sirpuma wrote:
the way cool Pod Clock doesn't seem to be calibrated properly.

You have to calibrate it yourself :wink:

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