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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:26 pm 
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but I don't think the game is one way or the other specifically.
Definitely, but it's only those who want to play solo in a multiplayer game that are complaining.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:41 pm 
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In a way, MOUL is a reflection of real life. There are things you can accomplish by yourself and others that require a cooperative effort.

In fact, part of this puzzle, as with real life, seems to be not just figuring out the solution, but figuring out how to get everyone to cooperate and do the right things at the right time--in effect, solving a social puzzle as well as a mechanical one.

Some ways to get a sense of accomplishment from the Delin puzzle or ones that may be similar--

(1) Go in with a group of people who will agree to serve a drones as you instruct them.

(2) Go in with a group of people who have also not seen the puzzle before and solve it together.

(3) Try to see how efficiently you can solve it, meaning either finding the most effective manner, the fewest number of people, and the like.

(4) Take the driver's seat and see how you can best get the puzzle done. (I'd suggest serving as a drone occasionally too, to allow someone else the satisfaction of being the leader.)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:22 pm 
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Here is the problem with muti-player puzzles.

1) Any puzzle that can be solved by a single player can also be pursued by a group if they so choose.
2) Any puzzle that requires multiple players to solve can never be solved by a solo player.

Thus the presence of any multi-player-only puzzles creates an inequity that forever relegates solo players to second class status. So Cyan needs to decide what type of game they are making. If they want something with a strong multi-player bias, that is a perfectly valid choice, even if it is not my cup of tea. However, that is not what they are advertising: they clearly state that each player can choose their own play style. But here is the first new puzzle, making that promise a lie. They can’t have it both ways: if they go forward with launch as things stand now, they will be guilty of fraud.

And to address some of the questions I’ve seen floating around here:

>They will have some solo puzzles too; you can choose to skip this one if you don’t like it.

It is true that there is always a choice to skip a puzzle you don’t like. But that is not a choice about how to play the game (like Cyan promised); it is a choice about whether to play the game. That is a very different thing.


>This is a muti-player game, why are you here if you want to play solo?

Not exactly true: this is MYST-Online. For me Myst has always been about exploration and puzzle solving. The only online aspect I care about is the ability to update content. The whole social aspect might be a nice add-on for those who want it: just keep it optional (i.e. away from the puzzle solving) and I will be happy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:48 pm 
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I think too much focus is being put on the multiplayer puzzles by some of you solo purists. You're not forced to do anything. MOUL is not linear. You don't have to do the multiplayer things. You can't play heek by yourself. You might think that's very different, but it's not. Heek is in the neighborhood, and so is Delin. Delin is just another neighborhood toy.

This is coming from one of you. I was happy that I could go through all five Myst games alone, with no help, and I've encouraged others to do the same. But I'm warming up to the idea of multiplayer ages. I got on Delin with a friend of mine, and we went in not knowing the solution and we worked together to figure it out, and it was a very rewarding experience.

As for Delin, I'm convinced that it's possible to solo, and I tried for about an hour, and I definitely would NOT recommend it. Timing myself, I was able to touch all seven cloths in about 59 seconds, picking the shortest possible sequence. The big enormous problem with soloing Delin is that the sequence is random and changes every time. I think if we all for some reason grinded away at this for days, someone would eventually pull it off, and it would be a great accomplishment, in a way, but in a way it would be a total waste.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:26 am 
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FreeLanZer wrote:
Big_Al? The same Big_al from NewDoom?


Sorry, but no.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:09 am 
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Big_Al wrote:
FreeLanZer wrote:
Big_Al? The same Big_al from NewDoom?


Sorry, but no.

Ahh oh.. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:22 am 
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One big problem with the multiplayer puzzle concept, which I'm already seeing with the Delin door, is that after a while there are fewer people wanting to do it as most players have already completed it. This makes it very difficult to get enough people together to actually complete the puzzle.

I still haven't managed to get through the door, despite a couple of unsuccessful attempts ( game crashes at the most inopportune times :roll: ), and last night ( UK time ) couldn't find enough people to try again :(

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:12 pm 
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Imo people need to calm down about single and multilayer.

I don't know where you are getting your "as advertised" view of the game, but as is, there is NOTHING making you participate in this particular age. You have a choice. In fact here is the transcript from the myst trailer taken IN CONTEXT.
UruLiveIntro wrote:
"The storm is come. The rain is passed. The tree... remains. But far in the distance a new storm builds, with dry titian couds of dust and destruction. They are free there, gathering. And now choices abound. Some simple, some deep. Even now, decide. Here explore alone, the place where all journeys' begin; there are no others in the cleft. It is empty. Desert. Yet there is wisdom on that path. Or here explore together; the cavern lives and grows. There are friends... and enemies, laughing, and waiting. Alone or together, destruction is coming. Alone or together find a way. Alone or together make a home. They come, he comes... and I will come as well." - Yeesha


"Choices abound. some simple, some deep. even now, decide." I would have to say that pretty much empowers you to do just that. Decide what you want to do, and do it. If you don't want to do something, DON'T! Decide that, and make it your own, not drag everyone else down because you don't like having to make decisions.

See now here is the problem. Everyone likes to complain about this quote; "'alone or together' - therefore I should be able to do everything my way". WRONG. It says, "Alone or together, destruction is coming. Alone or together, find a way. Alone or together make a home." Nowhere does it even imply that "oh, i can do it all by myself". It says whether you are alone or together, destruction will come. It also says find a way. It might just be that Eder Delin isn't your way. And finally it says make a home. All this controversy is doing is breaking that home everyone else is trying to make. No one is forcing you to do ANYTHING except yourself and your self importance, or your sense of accomplishment. If you feel that because you prefer to play solo that you are being slighted, then there is nothing that can be done about that - and therefore you feel you are free to complain about the world being unfair, and that cyan is fraudulent, and all that other whiny crap thats been going around lately.

Heres the thing. You choose your own path. Have you ever done one of those pick a path story books? You know the kind where it asks you to jump all over the place, you don't get to read the whole book; you miss out on parts. Are those authors fraudulent too, because their book doesn't read like the way you want it to? NO.

So instead of posting about the fact that you are upset about something that the vast majority of people are happy as a clam about (its NEW, its a NEW AGE!, and for the first time ever, you HAVE to do it w/ others) Its something social that not everyone will like to do! You are right. If you only want to play solo. You wont like to do this. Likewise, if you only play in a group, the cleft is a lonely place. Go figure. You can also choose not to go there. But there is nothing keeping you from doing it, except yourself. There are no laws, or problems with you doing it except your own sense of self-importance. "I don't like doing it w/ others, therefore I cant do it at all." Give me a break. I don't like broccoli, but I eat it anyways cause I can add cheese to it. Go add your own cheese and make it your own.

So to end this rant, I'll just say if you don't like what cyan has done. FINE. You have every right. But you don't have any right to make legal threats of fraud, or that its not being advertised properly. Just say you are not happy and be done with it. Make your decision in game, or make it with your wallet. You are not being forced to play this game. Either way, destruction is coming, and you better be ready for it regardless if you like mutiplayer, or single.


Last edited by Overdrive on Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:23 pm 
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Once again Overdrive all i can do is salute you!

Hats off to the man with some common sense.

darn you people with Blame Culture! :evil:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:45 pm 
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I've been away for a few days and come back to find all these posts. It really upsets me that no one has purchased any of my soap boxes! :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:10 pm 
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I myself consider myself lots of time a loner in online gaming. And at first URU has been that for me too. But after being in this game for a while (in the past and now) I really started to enjoy the community and interaction with other people. I like to sit in the hood and chat with other people.

As for solving the Ages; untill now I thought I was one of those who prefered doing them solo. But doing Eder Delin with some of the friends from our hood, has been one of the greatest, having-fun experiences I had in this game so far. Boy did we laugh at that stupid cloth nr. 1 that seemed to be broken. We even thought about selling it on E-bay.

And now, after doing this together, I often wonder of alone again, walking through completed Ages, searching for new things. Just being the loner I think I am.

As for solving this multi-player Age; evryone can solve it on their own; just for the execution of this found solution you need to be in a group. Is that to much asked for?

I myself try to adapt to the game; to find a mix between solo- and multiplayer that suits me and feels good. I think I may not ask the people of Cyan to adapt the game to me, since I know that would not suit the preferences of lots of other players.

Open yourselfs up for this game in all its aspects and choose you preferred playing-style within its boundaries.[/b]

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:40 pm 
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MudFarmer wrote:
Here is the problem with muti-player puzzles.

1) Any puzzle that can be solved by a single player can also be pursued by a group if they so choose.
2) Any puzzle that requires multiple players to solve can never be solved by a solo player.

Thus the presence of any multi-player-only puzzles creates an inequity that forever relegates solo players to second class status. So Cyan needs to decide what type of game they are making. If they want something with a strong multi-player bias, that is a perfectly valid choice, even if it is not my cup of tea. However, that is not what they are advertising: they clearly state that each player can choose their own play style. But here is the first new puzzle, making that promise a lie. They can’t have it both ways: if they go forward with launch as things stand now, they will be guilty of fraud.

And to address some of the questions I’ve seen floating around here:

>They will have some solo puzzles too; you can choose to skip this one if you don’t like it.

It is true that there is always a choice to skip a puzzle you don’t like. But that is not a choice about how to play the game (like Cyan promised); it is a choice about whether to play the game. That is a very different thing.


>This is a muti-player game, why are you here if you want to play solo?

Not exactly true: this is MYST-Online. For me Myst has always been about exploration and puzzle solving. The only online aspect I care about is the ability to update content. The whole social aspect might be a nice add-on for those who want it: just keep it optional (i.e. away from the puzzle solving) and I will be happy.


MudFarmer, I am in essential aggreement with you, except for the fraud part. I do think the following statment of yours does for the most part reveal the real problem.

Quote:
Thus the presence of any multi-player-only puzzles creates an inequity that forever relegates solo players to second class status. So Cyan needs to decide what type of game they are making. If they want something with a strong multi-player bias, that is a perfectly valid choice, even if it is not my cup of tea.


All players are paying to play and participate in URU LIVE. Therefore, all players are paying for equal access to all released content. Some players are not interested in the social aspect of URU, they are interested in puzzle solving and exploration of ages at their own pace, when they choose and as they choose.

Unfortunately, in this environment, as in our society, the herd instincts usually win, and I expect they will here as well, over the solo/individualist player who, gets enough socialization in real life and when looking for R&R, sought out URU, based on perhaps past experience with the solo releases from CYAN, for reasons of which there could be many, other then its social aspects.

Overall, at this point, I think it is too early to say what exactly CYAN will do as regards the solo and group aspects of the ages. At the present though, there definitely seems to be a clear prejudice against the solo player, not only or necessarily from CYAN, but what is most disturbing to me, from many players, who have no greater right to the game then any other person based on what fee has been paid to access URU LIVE, but who are essentially saying to the solo player, “get lost!”

To me, these are the truly anti-social players, not the players who seek to solve puzzles and explore ages with their own abilities and on their own terms.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:47 pm 
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RAWA from Cyan has posted some clarification here:
http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=98181#98181

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:34 am 
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Maliea, thank-you for posting the above link to RAWA’s post here.

That link to the post by RAWA, CYAN employee/developer, answers my questions and concerns, as well as I think can be answered by a developer and hopefully, will for many of the soloist who have posted here as well.


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